JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Tomtomkent]

Walter wrote: "In one of her interviews with Gerald Posner, Marina said she did not know Oswald was an American when she first met him and thought he might be from the Baltic because "they speak with accents" and "they don't speak Russian very well, they have different nationalities than the Russians." (Posner: pp. 64-65)

Walter's assertion that

"Marina Oswald stated that at the time she met Oswald in Minsk in March of 1961 not knowing Oswald was American she thought he might be from one of the Soviet Baltic republics because in the Baltics they don't speak Russian very well." Does not come from the Warren Report, but from Gerald Posner, a documented serial liar. The WR only states that she thought he was from one of the Baltic states because of his accent. In other words, she had no clue from his speech that he was an American. The WR goes on to say ""She stated that his only defects were that his grammar was sometimes incorrect and that his writing was never good." Nothing about "not speaking Russian very well." That is a Posner interpolation.

Take away all of Walter's Posner derived assertions, and his bag of Lone Nutter evidence comes up virtually empty.

So your argument is that Walter is wrong for stating LHO was not fluent in Russian. Your evidence for this is that LHOs grammer was not very good, and he could not write very well in the language. Or to put it simply: Your evidence that LHO was fluent in Russian was that he was not fluent in Russian, because of failings in grammer and his ability to write in the language?

So... He wasn't fluent then? Walter was right.

Well done Robert.

 

[EventHorizon]

Walter wrote: "In one of her interviews with Gerald Posner, Marina said she did not know Oswald was an American when she first met him and thought he might be from the Baltic because "they speak with accents" and "they don't speak Russian very well, they have different nationalities than the Russians." (Posner: pp. 64-65)

Walter's assertion that

"Marina Oswald stated that at the time she met Oswald in Minsk in March of 1961 not knowing Oswald was American she thought he might be from one of the Soviet Baltic republics because in the Baltics they don't speak Russian very well." Does not come from the Warren Report, but from Gerald Posner, a documented serial liar. The WR only states that she thought he was from one of the Baltic states because of his accent. In other words, she had no clue from his speech that he was an American. The WR goes on to say ""She stated that his only defects were that his grammar was sometimes incorrect and that his writing was never good." Nothing about "not speaking Russian very well." That is a Posner interpolation.

Take away all of Walter's Posner derived assertions, and his bag of Lone Nutter evidence comes up virtually empty.

Evidence for the statement in bold?


(Don't know why I'm asking for evidence from someone who doesn't really have a grasp of the definition of the word.)

 

[Walter Ego]

Evidence for the statement in bold?

(Don't know why I'm asking for evidence from someone who doesn't really have a grasp of the definition of the word.)

Since Posner was directly quoting Marina from one of his interviews with her, the only rejoinder available to Robert, his only possible rejoinder, is that Posner is a liar. This whole thing, lest we forget, was about Robert's contention (cribbed from Livingstone) that Oswald went to some kind of U.S. government language school for spies.

From Robert's "I Love Lee" post:

[Oswald] was apparently sent to language school so that he could speak fluent Russian, then sent to USSR so that he could spy for the US.

From the Warren Report regarding Oswald's Russian language skills:

While in Atsugi, Japan, Oswald studied the Russian language, perhaps with some help from an officer in his unit who was interested in Russian and used to "talk about it" with Oswald occasionally. He studied by himself a great deal in late 1958 and early 1959 after he was transferred from Japan to California. He took an Army aptitude test in Russian in February 1959 and rated "Poor." When he reached the Soviet Union in October of the same year he could barely speak the language. During the period in Moscow while he was awaiting decision on his application for citizenship, his diary records that he practiced Russian 8 hours a day. After he was sent to Minsk in early January 1960 he took lessons from an interpreter assigned to him for that purpose by the Soviet Government. Marina Oswald said that by the time she met him in March 1961 he spoke the language well enough so that at first she thought he was from one of the Baltic areas of her country, because of his accent. She stated that his only defects were that his grammar was sometimes incorrect and that his writing was never good.

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/chapter-6.html

Oswald's Russian improved only after he arrived in the Soviet Union because of his own self study and tutoring provided to him by the Soviet government. So either the U.S. government did a very bad job of teaching Oswald Russian before they sent him to Russia to be a spy or Livingstone pulled his tall tale about Oswald attending a American government language school from his posterior bodily orifice. You decide.

 

[Robrob]

Frivolous, pointless minutia.

And yet it shows you a liar.

According to the WR, Mariana said what she said about Oswald's Russian. He spoke so well she thought he was a native from a Baltic Country. Your own hogswoogle is false. Nor did Livingstone ever make any such assertion, other than mere conjecture or referring to what others had said.

And once again, the actual historical facts prove you a liar.

Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US.

Marina Oswald said that by the time she met him in March 1961 he spoke the language well enough so that at first she thought he was from one of the Baltic areas of her country, because of his accent. She stated that his only defects were that his grammar was sometimes incorrect and that his writing was never good.

After a year of self study, after a year of living in Russia - fully immersed in the language - Marina still knew he was a foreigner speaking Russian learned as a second language?

You do realize the Baltic countries speak their own languages and Russian was learned in school as a second language, right?

That's some great "evidence" you have there.

 

[BaaBaa]

Let me repeat what the material evidence is (as I can't see why you have to ask after the quoting the list):

The rifle (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The pistol (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The shell casings (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The bullet fragments (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The z film, polaroid and other photos (material objects, not a report, statement or interview)
The autopsy photographs, "pre" or otherwise, uncropped (material objects, not a report, statement or interview)
The skull fragments, blood stains, finger prints and forensic materials.(material objects, not a report, statement or interview)

yeah, but aside from that, you got nothin'!

 

[Robert Prey]

Oh is that why I listed the reports, statements and interviews seperately as Documentary Evidence? Because they are documentary evidence and not material evidence?

Let me repeat what the material evidence is (as I can't see why you have to ask after the quoting the list):

The rifle (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The pistol (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The shell casings (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The bullet fragments (a material object, not a report, statement or interview)
The z film, polaroid and other photos (material objects, not a report, statement or interview)
The autopsy photographs, "pre" or otherwise, uncropped (material objects, not a report, statement or interview)
The skull fragments, blood stains, finger prints and forensic materials.(material objects, not a report, statement or interview)


Has that clarified the matter Robert? Those are material objects, that can be considered evidence. They are material evidence.

No. All you have is reports from all of the above. Nothing in hand to examine first hand. No material evidence by your own definition.

 

[Robert Prey]

Evidence for the statement in bold?


(Don't know why I'm asking for evidence from someone who doesn't really have a grasp of the definition of the word.)

Posner is indeed a documented serial liar. Walter's entire position is taken from apparently the only book he's ever read on the subject. Evidence of Posner's lack of integrity? Stay tuned.

 

[Robert Prey]

Robrob wrote:

"Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US."

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture. Who would be taking Marine exam in Russian in the fist place, much less one who 7 months later ends up in the Soviet Union? Putting two plus two together, one comes up with a reasonable conjecture -- a possibility that Oswald attended Russian language school and that's why he was tested.

 

[Robert Prey]

Robrob wrote:

"Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US."

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture. Who would be taking Marine exam in Russian in the fist place, much less one who 7 months later ends up in the Soviet Union? Putting two plus two together, one comes up with a reasonable conjecture -- a possibility that Oswald attended Russian language school and that's why he was tested.

 

[Robert Prey]

yeah, but aside from that, you got nothin'!

All reports, no material evidence in hand to be examined "empirically" But even if valid and leading to someone, absolutely no proof of a single individual with no accomplices.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Until you can produce some of that "material evidence' for your own assertions, you have lost all credibility.

No. All you have is reports from all of the above. Nothing in hand to examine first hand. No material evidence by your own definition.

When do you intend to interview the parkland staff yourself?
Like it or not Robert those are material objects that are evidence of LHO as the only gunman. You have failed to name a single piece that can be varified.

It is now clear you persist on this path only to avoid admitting you have no material at all to support your claim. Not a single scrap.

 

[Tomtomkent]

All reports, no material evidence in hand to be examined "empirically" But even if valid and leading to someone, absolutely no proof of a single individual with no accomplices.

So, just to be absolutely clear, you are happy to admit no material evidence supports your own claims, and that there is no reason to accept your own assertions?

Or do you persist in double standards, claiming that absolute evidence be provided by others while offering none yourself? You never even offered a valid reason the Parkland statements are inherintly more honest or accurate than the autopsy or others. If you demand a standard of others, demand it of your own narrative, or discount your claim on the grounds you dismiss others.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Robrob wrote:

"Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US."

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture. Who would be taking Marine exam in Russian in the fist place, much less one who 7 months later ends up in the Soviet Union? Putting two plus two together, one comes up with a reasonable conjecture -- a possibility that Oswald attended Russian language school and that's why he was tested.

Conjecture based on the idea of Oswald having been fluent. Which was not true. Were you lying or mistaken?

 

[Walter Ego]

After a year of self study, after a year of living in Russia - fully immersed in the language - Marina still knew he was a foreigner speaking Russian learned as a second language?

You do realize the Baltic countries speak their own languages and Russian was learned in school as a second language, right?

Which is exactly what Marina told Gerald Posner. When she first met Oswald and not knowing he was an American she thought he might be from the Baltic because "they speak with accents" and "they don't speak Russian very well, they have different nationalities [i.e., languages] than the Russians." (Posner: pp. 64-65)

In any case, Oswald's self-directed studies to learn Russian are recorded in his own diaries and this whole "government language school" business is part of the conspiracy theorists claim that Oswald was was some kind of secret agent for the American government.

ETA:
Robert is beginning to backpedal on that language school claim.

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture.

Good thing he included that weasel word "apparently" in his original "conjecture." I guess we'll have to withhold that posthumous Medal of Freedom Robert wanted to award Oswald until all the facts are in.

 

[TheRedWorm]

I think the only response necessary is a collective: Eyewitness testimony that contradicts physical evidence can be safely discounted.

 

[Tomtomkent]

I think the only response necessary is a collective: Eyewitness testimony that contradicts physical evidence can be safely discounted.

But you haven't seen the evidence, only reports on it. Except the stuff you have available to you, like the film and photographic record. And ecxcept your owning the evidence does not remove it from reality. And except for how Robert wants testemony and documentary evidence to be on equal footing to physical or material evidence, yet also wishes to remain selective of what evidence is accepted. Saying "you didn't see the x" is a double edged sword. He didn't see the body at parkland and offers no viable reason to assume hisquotes are more accurate than anybody else.

As the physical evidence directly contradicts him, and he still produces none himself, why should we not lean to wards to the weight of verifiable evidence and away from unsupported claims?

Mind you, I know way more than 40 people who saw the statue of liberty vanish during a magic act. Perhaps Robert should explain how and why it still appears in film if those 40 people were not lying, and could not possibly have been mistaken in such numbers.

 

[RoboTimbo]

All reports, no material evidence in hand to be examined "empirically" But even if valid and leading to someone, absolutely no proof of a single individual with no accomplices.

Perhaps you could draw a circle around the exit wound on the Zapruder film with your material red crayon.

 

[HSienzant]

Robrob wrote:

"Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US."

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture. Who would be taking Marine exam in Russian in the fist place, much less one who 7 months later ends up in the Soviet Union? Putting two plus two together, one comes up with a reasonable conjecture -- a possibility that Oswald attended Russian language school and that's why he was tested.

Oswald claimed to be a Marxist, but actually was a loyal patriotic American who loved his country, loved his president, was a former US Marine, worked for Naval Intelligence, as well as an operative for CIA and FBI, was sent to USSR after having been sheep dipped as a disloyal American, but never revoked his citizenship, was apparently sent to language school so that he could speak fluent Russian, then sent to USSR so that he could spy for the US. While he made a big splash with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, he was also working with anti-Castro groups at the same time. Someday, when the full truth is accepted, he should be posthumously awarded the Medal of Freedom.

So it's only conjecture by you! And you have no evidence of the assertion made originally that Oswald was 'apparently' trained in Russian by the US Goverment and then sent to Russia as a spy!

So it's not all that 'apparent', is it?

apparent:
1: open to view : visible
2: clear or manifest to the understanding <reasons that are readily apparent>
3: appearing as actual to the eye or mind
4: having an indefeasible right to succeed to a title or estate
5: manifest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid <the air of spontaneity is perhaps more apparent than real — J. R. Sutherland>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/apparent

Well, why didn't you say so to start?

You have the cart before the horse. Oswald planned to defect to Russia, so he tried self-teaching himself Russian from records, and then asked to take the test. He wasn't assigned to learn the language, nor was he assigned to take the test. Both were of his own volition.

That's what the evidence indicates. Anything else is simply idle speculation on your part (which you already just admitted when you said 'The entire statement was conjecture'), and has nothing to do with the reality of the situation.

Hank

PS: The "apparently" in your quote above pertains to the language school, as I read it, not to the claim he spoke fluent Russian "[Oswald] ...was apparently sent to language school so that he could speak fluent Russian, then sent to USSR so that he could spy for the US." You are now trying to claim the "apparently" in your original statement pertains to the fluent Russian part, as well. But if he didn't speak fluent Russian, then there's no reason to speculate he attended language school, is there? And it's certainly therefore not apparent that he did, as you originally claimed.

Poof! your whole argument just went up in smoke as if it never existed.

 

[HSienzant]

Walter wrote: "In one of her interviews with Gerald Posner, Marina said she did not know Oswald was an American when she first met him and thought he might be from the Baltic because "they speak with accents" and "they don't speak Russian very well, they have different nationalities than the Russians." (Posner: pp. 64-65)

Walter's assertion that

"Marina Oswald stated that at the time she met Oswald in Minsk in March of 1961 not knowing Oswald was American she thought he might be from one of the Soviet Baltic republics because in the Baltics they don't speak Russian very well." Does not come from the Warren Report, but from Gerald Posner, a documented serial liar. The WR only states that she thought he was from one of the Baltic states because of his accent. In other words, she had no clue from his speech that he was an American. The WR goes on to say ""She stated that his only defects were that his grammar was sometimes incorrect and that his writing was never good." Nothing about "not speaking Russian very well." That is a Posner interpolation.

Take away all of Walter's Posner derived assertions, and his bag of Lone Nutter evidence comes up virtually empty.

Here's Marina's testimony to the Warren Commission on Oswald's Russian:
...
Mr. RANKIN. Mrs. Oswald, can you tell us what your husband was reading in the Soviet Union after you were married, that you recall?
Mrs. OSWALD. He read the Daily Worker newspaper in the English language.
Mr. RANKIN. Anything else?
Mrs. OSWALD. It seems to me something like Marxism, Leninism, also in the English language. He did not have any choice of English books for reading purposes.
Mr. RANKIN. Was he reading anything in Russian at that time?
Mrs. OSWALD. Yes, newspapers, and nothing else.
Mr. RANKIN. No library books?
Mrs. OSWALD. No. It was very hard for him...

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/oswald_m1.htm

I don't know how anyone can read that and think that he had a strong grasp of the Russian language. Nor claim that he apparently had training in the language, as you did.

The claim that his Russian was good comes from an FBI report and is apparently a conclusion of the FBI agent who wrote the report, it does not come from anything Marina told the Commission:
http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0388a.htm

Do you believe the FBI? I thought they (and their director, J.E.Hoover) were part of the conspiracy?
(Conspiracists always quote the FBI reports when it suits their purposes, but reserve the right to disbelieve anything that contradicts their beliefs. Prediction: Robert will be no different, accepting the FBI claim that Oswald's Russian was good, but discounting anything else he doesn't like).

Furthermore, note that his correspondence with the Russian Embassy was in English, not Russian (the "The FBI is not now interested in my activities" letter).

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh16/html/WH_Vol16_0234a.htm

If he was confident in his Russian, and had a strong grasp of the language, why would he not write to the Russians who would read his letter *in Russian*?

 

[Robrob]

Robrob wrote:

"Plus, you yourself have claimed - more than once - LHO attended military language training and was fluent in Russian before he left the US."

Not so. The entire statement was conjecture and couched in the word "apparently". Not a flat statement of fact but a conjecture..

Don't hurt yourself backing off your claim so fast.

Who would be taking Marine exam in Russian in the fist place

Anyone who signed up for it. It's free to service members and readily available at the base education center...

much less one who 7 months later ends up in the Soviet Union?.

Since his admitted reason for self study was to emigrate to Russia, it's not surprising he'd take advantage of a free language test.

Putting two plus two together, one comes up with a reasonable conjecture -- a possibility that Oswald attended Russian language school and that's why he was tested.

Putting "two plus two together" you came up with five.

BTW, the Defense Language Institute (DLI) is located in Monterey, CA. The Russian class is 52 weeks long. That must have been a heck of a commute for a Marine stationed in Japan.