Naming children - should the state step in?

[AlaskaBushPilot]

Indeed, the children with names like "Adolph Hitler" noted above were taken away from their parents for reasons other than the names.

Exactly, and I think it was Vortigern99 who pointed out too that the child's wishes are more important than those of the state power groupies that long for any excuse to make pre-emptive laws.

gumboot pointed out that the OP is misleading in the sense that it was a case of the court adjudicating a name-change request on behalf of the child requesting it instead of the legislative branch listing what names are permissible.

In my experience this is a key ignorance amongst state power groupies - the inability to distinguish between legislative, executive, and judicial functions of government. They're huge fans of laws and police power to "fix" problems that are already within the power of the judicial branch to remedy.

One child might very much like the notoriety of a bizarre name, and another not. Kids take on nicknames when they don't like their boring given names, and a lot of these would probably be prohibited pre-emptively by our committee on politically correct names. Once you adopt this power of legislation, you have given the field over to the do-gooders who have a lot more on their minds than protecting kids from parental abuse.

Prohibiting names that introduce technical problems for the state (use of asterisks, underscores, symbols outside the language, etc.) that are not matters of child abuse are another story and do fall within the proper jurisdiction of legislation. But that isn't the nature of the OP.

 

[cwalner]

Prohibiting names that introduce technical problems for the state (use of asterisks, underscores, symbols outside the language, etc.) that are not matters of child abuse are another story and do fall within the proper jurisdiction of legislation. But that isn't the nature of the OP.

A case could be made for allowing it in the U.S., though since there is already a high profile precedent of this.

 

[Toke]

state power groupies

???
Guess I am one of those "groupies" who believe the state should try to protect kids against the worst idiocy of their parents. With e.g. a name book.

 

[MRC_Hans]

I guess it is all down to culture. And probably a very marginal problem.

Hans

 

[zooterkin]

Erm....



Why would that make someone pronounce an "r" that just doesn't exist in the word then?

You have it backwards; the 'r' is not pronounced in the circumstances described. I realise you may find it difficult to believe, but as far as I'm concerned, and those with similar accents (non-rhotic, according to the Prof), the endings of "horn" and "yawn" sound the same. Choosing whether to represent the last syllable of Siobhan as "-orn" or "-awn" is therefore an arbitrary decision for us, and probably depends on which word with that ending that we thought of first.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Oh yeah, that's a good one. That's what we need right after SOPA and PIPA. Some Law that makes the Government decide what we're gonna name our children. Yeah... and then maybe we can have a law that allows the government to send agents to your house and your school and make sure your kid is still being referred by the name the Government provided for him. So that, were they to find out the name has been changed, they can take your kid in custody and make you pay a fine. Yup. This is all looking great

 

[Foolmewunz]

To return to something mentioned before, I think those of you thinking of naming your offspring You Light Up My Life Electric Can Opener Johnson should remember that it's been pointed out that those children are going to quite likely be taking care of you in your dotage. You better hope little You Light Up My Life Electric Can Opener maintains that sense of humor, otherwise that NZ couple might have the following conversation in about forty years:

Bus Shelter #16: Hey mom and dad, remember how funny it was when I used to get beat up in pre-school because even the teachers made fun of my name?
Mom: Hey, yeah. Bunch of conformists couldn't even take a joke.
Bus Shelter #16: And how they laughed and threw paper wads at me when I had to present in front of the class in Middle School.
Dad: Yeah. Bunch of squares.
Bus Shelter #16: And what a laugh riot when Mr. Taylor, the sadistic scout master made me sleep outside the tent on the autumn jamboree, saying, "Hey, you're a shelter already, why would you need shelter?"
Mom and Dad: Ha ha ha!
Bus Shelter #16: Well, I hope you guys kept your sense of humor after all these years.
Dad: Well sure we did, son. Always good to bring a little smile to people's faces.
Bus Shelter #16: Well, good. I just wanted to tell you I've picked out the funniest retirement home for you guys.
Mom: And what's that, sweetie?
Bus Shelter #16: You'll love it. It'll be a great laugh. I wanted to stay with the same theme so next Tuesday, you'll be moving into Bus Shelter #17. I've sold the house and am moving to Taronga with Mr. Taylor.

 

[Architect]

You have it backwards; the 'r' is not pronounced in the circumstances described. I realise you may find it difficult to believe, but as far as I'm concerned, and those with similar accents (non-rhotic, according to the Prof), the endings of "horn" and "yawn" sound the same. Choosing whether to represent the last syllable of Siobhan as "-orn" or "-awn" is therefore an arbitrary decision for us, and probably depends on which word with that ending that we thought of first.

Try listening to the 6pm BBC1 News. That kind of thing is right up there with "idear" in lieu of idea, or "lawr and order".

 

[The Don]

About the name thing, my two pennorth.

Parents giving their children amusing or unusual names is not, IMO, sufficient grounds for the state to take action but it may be one indication that parents may not have their children's best interest at heart.

So [stereotype alert] a child named "Sunshine Hippybeam" if raised in a conventional way and encouraged to attend school is fine but if the parents adhere to an alternative lifestyle and prevent their children from attending school, or being educated in any way then that is IMO child abuse [/stereotype alert]

So [stereotype alert] if a child is named "My dog has no nose, how does he smell ? Awful" and their parents raise them in an acceptable way that's fine but if the child is viewed as a chattel and treated as though they are for the parents' amusement then that is IMO child abuse [/stereotype alert]

So [stereotype alert] if a child is named "Adolf Hitler" but raised to understand that any kind of racial or religious intolerance is unacceptable then the state doesn't need to sep in but if the child is raised as a white supremacist then there are grounds for concern (then again., I torn as to whether the state should step in)[/stereotype alert]

 

[zooterkin]

Try listening to the 6pm BBC1 News.

And what will I hear?

That kind of thing is right up there with "idear" in lieu of idea, or "lawr and order".

Sorry, that's something entirely different. I'm not putting an 'r' in "lawn", I'm simply not pronouncing the 'r' in "horn". As described in the very piece you quoted.

What this means is that speakers of non-rhotic accents have this rule: if the <r> in the spelling does not occur before a vowel sound, don’t pronounce it.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Oh yeah, that's a good one. That's what we need right after SOPA and PIPA. Some Law that makes the Government decide what we're gonna name our children. Yeah... and then maybe we can have a law that allows the government to send agents to your house and your school and make sure your kid is still being referred by the name the Government provided for him. So that, were they to find out the name has been changed, they can take your kid in custody and make you pay a fine. Yup. This is all looking great

Yes, and don't smoke near that one.

I don't see anybody suggesting anything near that one. The most rigorous rules in existence seems to be lists of approved names. Some are kept more rigorously than others, but apparently much in accordance with local culture.

Nobody keeps you from calling your little Alexander "Number 16 Bus Shelter", just don't be surprised if he ignores you.

Sure, parents that give their children crazy names may have worse problems, but that's no reason to add to the trouble.

At one point I disagree with the rules of my own country: The rules also apply to adults. IMO, an adult should be allowed to call himself "Anal Sex Sucker Hansen" if he so pleases. And he must face the consequences (which may be exactly what he wants ).

Hans

 

[welshdean]

I went to school with two beauties;
Mike Hunt and Menzies Saint John Featherstonehaugh (pron- Ming Sinjun Fanshaw)

Because in several cases the names - one is even spelled wrongly - speak volumes for the educational levels and short-sightedness of the parents.

There is a little girl in my youngest daughters class called 'Nutasher', both mum and dad are a little errrm, learning challenged.

"Shivorn" is a good approximation, if you're English and therefore don't roll your 'R's.

Last time Mrs Welshdean rolled her 'R's, my little boy was conceived.

 

[Jorghnassen]

Really? That seems a bit severe.

Well, from a database perspective, it makes a lot of sense. Can't screw around with basic identifiers easily. It's funny too. My mom's actual first name is hyphenated, but she doesn't like the first part, so she's dropped it everyday life, but when she gets mail from the government, it's always with her hyphenated name, and it because it's what appears on her tax forms, it's what her accountant calls her, he's the only one who does so. If James Randi had lived in Quebec, his legal name would still be Randall James Hamilton Zwinge.

To a certain extent it's a comparatively recent (i.e. Victorian) phenomenon. In Scotland, for example, wives traditionally kept their maiden names right through until the end of the 19th century. And of course traditionally gravestones use maiden names.

Figures. There's a lot of traditions we think are ancient that are actually much more recent.

 

[Shankly]

I would pronounce 'Shiv-awn' exactly the same as "Shiv-orn".

As the person who posted the original (fairly rubbish) joke - can I say I agree with Zooterkin in that I would pronounce those two words exactly the same.

If it would make things easier for Architect, I am perfectly willing to change the name of my hypothetical daughter to Shivawn.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I have a nephew called Ruairidh; you should hear some non-scots try to pronounce that...

 

[Skepticemea]

A former colleague of mine had twins named Samantha and Elizabeth. Or Sam and Ella, as she liked to refer to them.

 

[welshdean]

I have a nephew called Ruairidh; you should hear some non-scots try to pronounce that...

When Ruairidh Jackson made his debut I remember thinking 'what the bejasus'.

 

[zooterkin]

I have a nephew called Ruairidh; you should hear some non-scots try to pronounce that...

As heard on The Archers.

 

[Arisia]

Growing up in a very small town with 2 active communes, I knew a few kids with unusual names... my sister's class at school had a Sunshine and a Rainbow in it, both boys. Rainbow apparently changed his name to Robert by the time he turned 18, and he had a younger brother named Kodiak, too.

 

[Shankly]

and he had a younger brother named Kodiak, too.

That must have been hard to bear...