• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Nick Terry said:
I've received comments from a couple of readers of this thread that in the past few days, Dogzilla has been cornered on repeated occasions and is now flailing hopelessly. I'm almost certain by now that Dogzilla wouldn't see it that way; not because he is blustering, or because he is trying to cover his retreat, or really knows that he has been defeated on point x, but because his brain simply isn't wired in such a way that he can even realise or notice that he has been refuted.
Click to expand...

Yeah sure you did.
 
TSR said:
.
The guns to their heads were wielded by your Nazi heroes, attempting to enforce laws which made it difficult and then illegal for them to leave.

For example, the Frank family had abandoned all they owned and moved to Amsterdam. There they worked hard to start a new business and contribute to their new society.

Then the Nazi's invade.

So, having started over once, they hide, not doing anything at all which could be avoided to interact with other Dutch citizens or the Nazis.

And yet, they were all arrested and sent first to Westerbork, then to Auschwitz.

What more do you expect them to have done, being Jews and so, according to you, of above average intelligence and all?
.
Click to expand...

And the rest of the 2 to 3,999,990 or so?
 
Matthew Ellard said:
It was the holocaust denier, 9/11 Investigator, on this very thread, who first mentioned Caroline Colls' desire to perform a forensic investigation on Treblinka II. This was about a year ago. At that time, I thought it was just an academic talking through a "wish-list" of things they wanted to study. I am glad I was wrong.

This is still early days yet and let's wait for Ms Colls and her team to compile, assess, compose, undergo peer review and release their information.

I'm excited by the prospect that my lone holocaust denier at the Skeptic Society forum may have to go back and delete his 2000 posts on Treblinka.
Click to expand...
Thank you for posting the update. Much appreciated. And, yes, let's allow her work to take its proper course.
 
Dogzilla said:
I don't know how many Jews there were. If you don't know who counted the Jews, how they defined Jews and the geographic region in which they were counted, you don't know either. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying you don't know.

If you're going to use Nazi estimates of Jewish populations you need to know how they defined "Jew." The definition of "Jew" they used for internal purposes doesn't match the definition of "Jew" that Orthodox, Conservative, Reform or any other branch of Judaism uses. Did they apply the same definition of "Jew" in Lithuania as they did in Germany?

These are the things you need to think about.
Click to expand...
But I have thought long and hard about these issues, and, as Nick says, I do know. I know how Jew was defined, for example, in Germany, Poland, Hungary, and the parts of the Soviet Union occupied by the Germans, because I've read that Hilberg book you go on about but the contents of which you seem to be ignorant. For just this once I will resist temptation and I will not type out a long summary for you.

After Nick's neat dissection of your sophistry, there is not much to add.

But let's keep trying to get you to make some sort of relevant argument - instead of waving distractions and fluff around to cover your dodging.

Warsaw. I am a bit tired of your failing to have a clue about Vilna, so let's try Warsaw, and add that city to Vilna and now Kiev, the situation of which Nick just outlined for you, as cities you dodge discussing.

If you want a definition of "Jews" for Warsaw, one way to look at this non-problem is simple, namely, that the Nuremberg definition was operative in the General-Gouvernement, following some false starts, as of July 1940.

Another way to think about this is even simpler: the Germans had the police power to enforce their definition of Jew in the G-G and did so in different ways. One way was to establish what we commonly call the Warsaw ghetto in fall 1940. The Germans often called this area, into which certain people were forced, by German coercive power, to live, the Jewish Residential District. We know, therefore, how the Germans viewed the people living in Warsaw ghetto.

By combining these two views, and understanding Nazi power in the territories Germany occupied, I also know, as do you, despite your childish flapping around, within an acceptable margin of error, how many people, defined as Jews by the Nazis, lived in the Jewish Residential District of Warsaw. Or you could engage in more sophistry and point to a few anomalous individuals and declare therefore that you have no idea how many Jews lived in the Jewish Residential District of Warsaw, hoping no one will notice your desperation and inability to tackle the problem you yourself raised in announcing that the Nazi policy was removal of Jews from Europe rather than extermination.

(We can, of course, discuss, in a similar vein, the Jewish residents of the other locations we've discussed the past few days - Germany and the 4 cities besides Warsaw. It was these people, defined and treated as Jews, about whom we have been talking. For the reasons and with the results that Nick explained in his post. There is no meaningful confusion about the people we are discussing in these places. Enough. Your obfuscation is obvious, as is your failure to offer any explanation for the drastic reductions in the Jewish populations in these places.)

So back to the Jewish Residential District in Warsaw, since you won't discuss what happened to the 60,000 or so Jews of Vilna. By the Nuremberg definition operative in the G-G, the Nazis forced Jews to live in Warsaw ghetto, about 450,000 Jews living there when the ghetto was formed. You say these people were subsequently resettled. Tell us where to, when, how, and in what number. Simple. No more fluff about European demography or embarrassing attempts to obfuscate by asking for well-known information. Just a simple reply to what happened to the 450,000 people living in the Jewish Residential District in 1940.

You are failing miserably. Your attempts to distract are patently obvious tactics you hope will allow you to escape giving an answer to straightforward questions, ones that follow logically from your own posts. Readers here recall that you tried the same tactics with the Jaeger Report. The question for denial, which you have raised, is whether it has any case at all to make. It appears not.

By the way, if you would like to know what Himmler would have done with your definitional niceties, he would have told you that the SS was about getting on with getting rid of Jews, and were not to be slowed down by metaphysical disputes, as he wrote in July 1942 to Gottlob Berger about the re-writing of the Nuremberg definitions by the Ministry for Eastern Occupied Territories, "I request urgently that no ordinance be issued about the concept of 'Jew.' With all these foolish definitions we are only tying our hands. The occupied eastern territories will be cleared of Jews. The implementation of this very hard order has been placed on my shoulders by the Führer. No one can release me from this responsibility in any case. I forbid all interference."

Please get on with discussing what happened to the Jews incarcerated in Warsaw's Jewish Residential District under German control. Or Vilna's Jews. Or the Jews in Lodz. And so on.
 
Last edited:
Clayton Moore said:
And the rest of the 2 to 3,999,990 or so?
Click to expand...
.
The exact same question, which everyone has now seen you are unable or unwilling to answer directly.

What more do you expect that they had done (given that you have implicitly acknowledged that nothing the Franks could have done would have saved them)?
.
 
Clayton Moore said:
Citing the circumstances of the Frank family as typical of the remaining 2 to 3,999,990 is beyond hope.
Click to expand...
.
Still no answer as to what they could have done.

Colour me unsurprized.

What *did* those thuggish Franks do?
.
 
Last edited:
Pacal said:
Himmler was also a politician and the meeting also had non military people at it.

Talk about an utterly absurd interpretation. It is nice to know that Himmler organizer of a bestial concentration camp system and brutal slave labour had a high level of compassion and humanity. (CRAP)



Ah so every Jew was a partisan and fighter, including the old, sick, and very young. Oh and what about the Poles, the Russians etc, every last one of them was an enemy? This justifies excuses locking civilians up in Ghetto's etc? Your inability to discuss the obvious plain meaning of Himmler's words is hilarious, along with conjuring up absurd "explaination".
Click to expand...

You're collapsing into a fit of Team holocaust Tourette. Calm down and take a deep breath. Every Jew wasn't a partisan but every Jew was an enemy of the state. The Germans were fighting a ruthless partisan war against an enemy that used women and children as combatants and as human shields. When the enemy uses women and children as soldiers, your soldiers need to kill them. I personally think the Nazis took extreme retaliatory measures that went beyond what was necessary. But I wasn't there. And what about the Poles, the Russians. etc.? Were they all the enemy? Well, Germany invaded Poland and Russia so my understanding of how war works makes me think that Poles and Russians would not be allies of Germany. Would the ordinary Polish or Russian citizen be an avowed enemy? Probably but I don't know how this pertains to what we're talking about. Is there a Jaeger Report for Poles and Russians like we have for the Jews? Are you saying that Nazi Germany intended to exterminate the Poles and the Russians like they did the Jews? So the Jews aren't unique as the Nazi's intended victims?

I'm perfectly capable of and in fact have been discussing the plain meaning of Himmler's speech. If you think my explanation is wrong, tell us why. Or better yet, tell us how this proves the Nazis had a plan to exterminate all the Jews (except for the Jews that weren't suppose to be exterminated) and how it relates to gas chambers.


THe similarity of your opinion with Nazi paranoia about Jews is noted.
Click to expand...

Understanding another person's mindset and agreeing with them are two completely different things. I understand, for example, the Israeli mindset that led their military to respond in Lebanon in 2006 the way they did. Their response was way overboard and completely unjustified. The Israelis usually do respond to provocation in ways that cannot be justified in any way. But I understand their paranoia and persecution complex and can understand why stuff happens the way it does. I don't condone it. I don't agree with it. And the fact that the United State supports it without question embarrasses me because it is a stain on our nation that will endure for a thousand years.

I understand it. But that doesn't mean I agree with it. And I sure as heck don't make the idiotic leap that the Israeli's brutal occupation and oppression of Gaza and the West Bank is evidence that the Jews want to exterminate the Muslims.


We could talk about the Japanese "Three Alls" campaigns. You know the ones that were "Loot All, Burn All, Kill All", which resulted in the deaths of millions of Chinese civiliians. Which is certainly barbaric.

As for the rest I see you've read the moaning of the German memoir literature, which constantly whines about Partisan atrocities. I suppose it should be mentioned that many of the German anti-Partisan operations were little better than mass murder expeditions in which thousands of civilians were slaughtered under the cloak of anti-partisan operations.
Click to expand...

There's German memoir literature? I'll look into it someday. Do the Germans whine about atrocities like being served unpeeled potato soup or receiving coffee, without sugar, of course? I learn about the partisan war from the history books. I get an understanding of how brutal it was by reading Russian and Polish partisan memoirs.

But your hatred of the Germans is noted.
 
LemmyCaution said:
What in the world does the anti-Jewish legislation and persecution of the German Jews in 1933 have to do - other than in an antisemitic fantasy world - with the imaginary Jew sabotaging the German war effort in the east in 1944? I will grant you that the Germans were killing Jews because they believed many untrue things about them. I am not sure what your making this point has to do with the argument you usually make that the killings did not occur.
Click to expand...

OK. So let me get this straight. You can strip Jews of their citizenship, force them out of just about every profession, restrict where they can live, where they can work, where they play, turn a blind eye to private citizens beating them up and smashing and looting their property and they won't dislike it?
 
Nick Terry said:
Since the rest of your post has been utterly decimated by everyone else, I get the scraps.
Click to expand...

Decimated? Everybody seems to have fallen into the trap of agreeing that when US politicians and military leaders talked about exterminating the Japanese they were talking about literally exterminating the Japanese. (Just between you and me, I was only kidding. My point was that Germans using the word exterminate when talking about the Jews isn't evidence of an extermination policy any more than Americans using the word exterminate when talking about the Japanese meant that the US had a policy of exterminating the Japanese. But Team holocaust is kinda dim so I guess they took it the wrong way. Keep it hush hush and on the QT. I want to see how long it is before they figure it out.)


Actually I have rather a lot of statements from Nazi politicians (I see you're reverting back to conflating 'German' and 'Nazi', btw. It's an obnoxious habit you should lose). Before you ask, the definition of a Nazi politician would be:

1) the Fuehrer, plus the Reichsleiter and Gauleiter = about 70 top Nazis
2) members of the Reichstag, who often took executive jobs in the occupied territories or were SS generals
3) other district leaders and department heads in the civil administrations

Counting just the top Nazis, I would say that some Nazi leader or other is recorded as talking about the extermination of the Jews on average at least once a week through 1941-3, when the bulk of the killing happened. That would include for certain Hitler, Goebbels, Hans Frank, Rosenberg, Himmler, Ley, Streicher, Ribbentrop, as well as less well known figures like Gauleiter Alfred Meyer (Rosenberg's deputy in the Eastern Ministry). If one includes former Gauleiter, then Erich Kube obliged with quite a few more such remarks, but he would also count towards (2), since he remained an MdR. At least a third of the remarks were made in public, the rest behind closed doors or in their diaries.

These remarks are, of course, written up in the history books, so I refer you to those. Peter Longerich dealt with a number in his expert report for the Irving trial; he dealt with more in Davon haben wir nichts gewusst, as did Bernward Doerner in Die Deutschen und der Holocaust. The standard works on Nazi policy by Longerich and Browning contain a bunch more, other historians have found others. It's not like anyone needs to collate 150 statements by top Nazis talking about the extermination of the Jews. Most people get the point after far fewer. You, however, don't seem to have got the point.

So it's probably more interesting to see how many remarks about exterminating the Jews from top Nazi politicians you know about. I'm talking here of remarks that are conventionally understood as talking about the extermination of the Jews. You know, like the Posen speech.

Because it's your job, if you're to sustain your argument, to explain away every single such statement, while avoiding cherrypicking, quote-mining, selective citation or the fallacy of hasty generalisation. Anything less, and your argument will fail. Since you're probably about to start bloviating again on this subject, it would also behove you to remember that asserting opinions without checking the evidence is frowned upon in polite circles. I appreciate this is a tactic widely used by your even more clueless brethren, but deep down you know it won't wash.
Click to expand...

Once a week? Wow! It should be easy for you to find a few of those quotes then. Don't bother though. If I bothered to critique every comment by a Nazi politician talking about exterminating the Jews, you would be obligated to critique every comment made by an American politician about exterminating the Japanese and explain why he wasn't really talking about exterminating. It'd be especially tough for you because you've already acknowledged that the exterminationist rhetoric from US politicians and military officers about the Japanese wasn't bluster because the United States was literally exterminating the Japanese.

So we'll just agree that Nazi Germany and the United States both planned to literally exterminate entire ethnic/racial groups. Both countries rounded up their ethnic/racial enemies, put them into concentration camps and used language like "evacuation to the East" as a code for killing.

It's good that you conceded this point. Even if you could hand wave away every comment made by an American about exterminating the Japanese, I have my ace in the hole. I can show you a picture of an intact working gas chamber that actually murdered human beings in California and Oregon.

Or you could stop making idiotic challenges like explain every comment conventionally understood to mean extermination of the Jews made by German politicians and published in history books.
 
LemmyCaution said:
Joachim Neander, who has studied this question, the matter of Reich citizenship, made this very interesting and informative post a couple years ago: Dogzilla might want to "read up" on this topic.
Click to expand...

Given Joachim Neander's defense of Irene Zisblatt, I think I'll stick to what the conventional sources like USHMM or the Jewish Virtual library say about the Reich Citizenship laws of 1935. Good to see you still know how to pick cherries.
 
The "Six Million Myth"

Just a little background on the 6 million myth number.

From 1974 to 1978 the 6 million number was imprinted on Americans forever by Harve Bennett Fischman with the conveniently named The Six Million Dollar Man.

The "Six Million Myth"
The mythical Six Million figure has intriguing origins indeed. Jews have staunchly emphasized the 6,000,000 figure in persecution propaganda from the years 1890 through 1945. Since the end of WWII in 1945, the talismanic 6,000,000 figure has now reached almost sacrosanct proportions. World leaders, Presidents, Prime Ministers, ceremonial Kings and Queens, Popes and Priests alike, all sheepishly genuflect to the mythical “6,000,000 Jews” who perished in non-existent “Nazi gas chambers” when they make public visits to Israel’s “Yad Vashem” holohoax memorial museum, or the Auschwitz-Birkenau WWII Nazi labor camp turned Disneyland-styled tourist attraction. Research shows that the reason for this fixation primarily stems from an ancient religious Jewish prophecy in the Torah. According to some sources, the prophecy envisioned that before the Jewish people could reclaim and reconquer Palestine to create “Israel,” 6,000,000 Jews would first have to perish in a burnt offering (“Holocaust”). This was said to please the Jews’ bloodthirsty, fictional Semitic tribal deity, Yahweh.
Click to expand...

Rebel News
http://rebelnews.org
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Clayton? Dogzilla? Can you explain this for me?

http://www.independent.ie/world-new...s-graves-at-treblinka-death-camp-2990076.html

The Independent
16th January 2012

British forensic archaeologist Caroline Sturdy Colls has now undertaken the first co-ordinated scientific attempt to locate the graves..........

Her work at the site, where the Nazis tried to destroy all traces of industrial-scale killing, is being followed in forthcoming Radio 4 documentary The Hidden Graves Of The Holocaust..........

..... the ground-penetrating radar had also discovered the foundations of buildings and that two are likely to have been gas chambers.......


She added: "I've identified a number of buried pits using geophysical techniques. These are considerable in size, and very deep, one in particular is 26 by 17 metres."......
Click to expand...

Yeah. I can explain it. It's yet another example of the "deniers" forcing Team holocaust to come up with evidence for their claims or at least make it appear as though they are doing so. Can you explain why they're billing this as the first coordinated scientific attempt to locate the graves? I thought they knew where the graves were. We have eyewitnesses. Why do we need all this fancy science?
 
Clayton Moore said:
Just a little background on the 6 million myth number.
Click to expand...
.
No, this was just another example of your irrational hatred which you desperately try to justify by citing other haters who offer no more than their say-so in support of that hate.

So what did Anne Frank's family do to deserve being deported after they'd tried to escape the Nazis?

And are you *ever* going to get around to documenting a lie on THHP?
.
 
Dogzilla said:
Yeah. I can explain it. It's yet another example of the "deniers" forcing Team holocaust to come up with evidence for their claims or at least make it appear as though they are doing so. Can you explain why they're billing this as the first coordinated scientific attempt to locate the graves? I thought they knew where the graves were. We have eyewitnesses. Why do we need all this fancy science?
Click to expand...
.
Because, as has been explained to you before, such scientific evidence either makes eyewitness testimony more compelling, or contradicts it.

Since rational people are open to *both* possibilities, we welcome such research.

Deniers, on the other hand, are only interested in things they can twist to bolster their hate, and so are required by that hate to dismiss real research.
.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom