Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Chris_Halkides]

peroxidase levels

Is apricot juice similar to turnip juice in its reaction to Luminol?

Different plant products vary greatly in the amount of peroxidase that they have (peroxidase is the enzyme responsible for false positives in presumptive blood tests). Apricots are near the bottom.
Caligore et al., The American Journal of Clinical Nutrition 35: JUNE 1982, pp. 1487-1489.

 

[freeski]

Duly noted, and accepted, but the fact remains that, prior to Meredith's arrival he had not yet pocketed anything. And if we add to the list of things he could have done after effecting an entry it still does not add up to much. No more than a few minutes leaving aside the session in the toilet.

Anyway, I was trying to make the case that he may have selected the apartment because he hoped to find her alone there and had reason to expect to do so and am constrained to accept that the mere fact that he may not have ransacked the place immediately upon arrival does not mean he was not just a burglar

If he knew one of the women was going to come home, then we're talking about a planned attack and mugging. It is not unreasonable that he knew Meredith would be alone that night. That would imply he intended to wait for her, surprise her, and then steal. I suppose this scenario is possible, but I find myself resisting the idea. At least two of the women knew what he looked liked, so he would need to be very careful not to be recognised. And I also find myself resisting the idea that he started out with murder in mind. I think that happened when she fought so much and the situation got out of control.

I think he was basically looking for cash from the start. His rent was due as was everyone else's at the start of the month, so he may have expected to find some there. And he probably thought they'd all be out or away that evening. Most in Perugia pay their rent by cash (presumably a tax dodge by the landlords). So he poked around but didn't find cash before he took his comfort break and then got disturbed by Meredith's arrival. I'm sure if she had not disturbed him, he would have taken as much as he could carry on the way out.

Some have commented that he wasn't much of a burglar because he didn't take anything (laptops etc), and hence used this as evidence of a staged break-in. But that is absurd. After the murder he had to get out asap. He probably only found M's rent money because he had to find the front door key to get out. And it was all in the purse.

 

[Kaosium]

Bill PMF Catnip posted this link to old Mail stories from back in the beginning.

I think many that weren't following the case from the beginning and are now reading the various books may get some incites into the case by checking out the contemporaneous reporting

Try this link

Hope the link worked.

It is revealing to read what the ILE seemed to releasing at the time.

Very much so, and you reminded me of one of the more esoteric mysteries in the case, this particular phone message that I recall reading about long ago, which I don't recall the resolution of, but there must have been some explanation for such a claim, perhaps even that the person reporting it was merely a celebrity seeker. The man was a Roman, thus not even a Perugian, but still for such a coincidence to take place, that he received a message in English about a girl named Meredith who was to supposedly die two days or the day before she was actually killed. I wonder just how many 'Merediths' there was likely to be in all of Italy at that time, and what the odds are the text proclaiming her death within a day or two of her murder was unconnected.

Incidentally, does anyone know the reason why there's no byline on any of the articles I clicked on?

Here's another gem mined from this fluff:

In a bizarre twist to the investigation into Miss Kercher's death, a chilling text message predicting her murder has surfaced.

According to reports in Italian newspapers, a man contacted police after receiving a message on his mobile from an unknown number.

It read: "For me, tomorrow or tonight Meredith dies."

The text flashed up on the man's mobile on October 30, two days before the student's semi-naked body was found in her bedroom in Perugia.

At the time, the man assumed the message was sent by mistake and he deleted it.

But earlier this week he heard reports of the murder, which has left Italy stunned, and contacted police in his hometown of Rome.

They are now trawling through vast quantities of phone data to retrieve the message and check if it was sent by one of the three suspects.

Phone records have already proved vital in the police investigation and it is known that in the hours after the killing there was heavy text and call traffic between Amanda Knox and boyfriend Raffaele Sollecito.

Chilling: A man contacted the police after receiving this message

Police say phone calls made by the pair expose their alibi as a lie. Despite the couple's claims to have been elsewhere at the time of the killing, detectives say they used their phones in the vicinity of the murder scene around the time that Miss Kercher died.

I wonder if this is another police lie, an honest mistake, simply a press error--perhaps even an 'exaggeration?' It seemed to me a week or two ago you were putting together a comprehensive list of the police lies in this case, which I don't think has ever been done to completion anywhere in one place. I wonder if this qualifies? Obviously it is untrue, Amanda switched her phone off after the text message from Patrick and it wasn't activated until the next morning. It could be a mix-up with the calls made the day after the murder, when Amanda was in the process of discovering it, however the line about the police saying it therefore exposed their alibi as a 'lie' suggests malevolence, not mistake.

 

[RWVBWL]

Good to see you back Bolint!

What happened to the cat?Has it ever been found?
I mean was it seen alive after Nov 1?

Good question, don't know...

Rudy's diary written in jail in Germany waiting extradition:
Quote:
"Even though I’d bought some drinks with the kebab, I
needed to drink some more because it was very spicy,
and I asked her if I could drink something. She told me
to help myself as if I was at my place. I opened the
fridge and drank some apricot juice and water too.
Since she wasn't paying attention, I drank out of the
bottle because I didn't know where the glasses were,
and then I sat down."

Apricot juice?
I thought I'd read before that it was OJ that Rudy drank of from out of the bottle, gosh, learned something new today...

Take it easy, RW

 

[Grinder]

IIRC the Meredith in these messages was a character in a TV show.

Very much so, and you reminded me of one of the more esoteric mysteries in the case, this particular phone message that I recall reading about long ago, which I don't recall the resolution of, but there must have been some explanation for such a claim, perhaps even that the person reporting it was merely a celebrity seeker. The man was a Roman, thus not even a Perugian, but still for such a coincidence to take place, that he received a message in English about a girl named Meredith who was to supposedly die two days or the day before she was actually killed. I wonder just how many 'Merediths' there was likely to be in all of Italy at that time, and what the odds are the text proclaiming her death within a day or two of her murder was unconnected.


I wonder if this is another police lie, an honest mistake, simply a press error--perhaps even an 'exaggeration?' It seemed to me a week or two ago you were putting together a comprehensive list of the police lies in this case, which I don't think has ever been done to completion anywhere in one place. I wonder if this qualifies? Obviously it is untrue, Amanda switched her phone off after the text message from Patrick and it wasn't activated until the next morning. It could be a mix-up with the calls made the day after the murder, when Amanda was in the process of discovering it, however the line about the police saying it therefore exposed their alibi as a 'lie' suggests malevolence, not mistake.

Yes, your example is a good addition. I wanted to compile a list of all these things that were bandied about throughout this case that have been proven wrong or just faded away.

 

[Bill Williams]

The "Meredith dies tonight" text message, ckaimed to have been sent about Oct 30 or 31, was apparently a reference to a character on "Grey's Anatony" named Meredith, who was thought to have been killed of during that week's episode. A quick look at Wikipedia says that Meredith Grey (hence, "Grey's Anatomy") survived as the series chief protagonist....

So for what it is worth, I have heard this to be the meaning behind the text. Given the way rumour has driven this case, I think my explanation should be accepted with full evidentiary weight.

 

[Dougm]

Very much so, and you reminded me of one of the more esoteric mysteries in the case, this particular phone message that I recall reading about long ago, which I don't recall the resolution of, but there must have been some explanation for such a claim, perhaps even that the person reporting it was merely a celebrity seeker. The man was a Roman, thus not even a Perugian, but still for such a coincidence to take place, that he received a message in English about a girl named Meredith who was to supposedly die two days or the day before she was actually killed. I wonder just how many 'Merediths' there was likely to be in all of Italy at that time, and what the odds are the text proclaiming her death within a day or two of her murder was unconnected.

Incidentally, does anyone know the reason why there's no byline on any of the articles I clicked on?

Here's another gem mined from this fluff:




I wonder if this is another police lie, an honest mistake, simply a press error--perhaps even an 'exaggeration?' It seemed to me a week or two ago you were putting together a comprehensive list of the police lies in this case, which I don't think has ever been done to completion anywhere in one place. I wonder if this qualifies? Obviously it is untrue, Amanda switched her phone off after the text message from Patrick and it wasn't activated until the next morning. It could be a mix-up with the calls made the day after the murder, when Amanda was in the process of discovering it, however the line about the police saying it therefore exposed their alibi as a 'lie' suggests malevolence, not mistake.

Seeing this discussion, I recalled having heard that the text message about Meredith dying turned out to be related to a TV show, and I found this from the Telegraph:

A mysterious text message sent to a man in Rome saying "For me, tomorrow or tonight, Meredith dies" appears to have referred to an episode of the television show, Grey's Anatomy, in which Meredith Grey, a lead character, was on the verge of death.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1569137/Meredith-murder-suspect-withdraws-confession.html

 

[Draca]

Very much so, and you reminded me of one of the more esoteric mysteries in the case, this particular phone message that I recall reading about long ago, which I don't recall the resolution of, but there must have been some explanation for such a claim, perhaps even that the person reporting it was merely a celebrity seeker. The man was a Roman, thus not even a Perugian, but still for such a coincidence to take place, that he received a message in English about a girl named Meredith who was to supposedly die two days or the day before she was actually killed. I wonder just how many 'Merediths' there was likely to be in all of Italy at that time, and what the odds are the text proclaiming her death within a day or two of her murder was unconnected.

Incidentally, does anyone know the reason why there's no byline on any of the articles I clicked on?

Meredith from Grey's anatomy.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This Debunking the Hellmann report on PMF is the silliest thing I have seen in years. I could not upload the file here, but the link is over there.

 

[anglolawyer]

If he knew one of the women was going to come home, then we're talking about a planned attack and mugging. It is not unreasonable that he knew Meredith would be alone that night. That would imply he intended to wait for her, surprise her, and then steal. I suppose this scenario is possible, but I find myself resisting the idea. At least two of the women knew what he looked liked, so he would need to be very careful not to be recognised. And I also find myself resisting the idea that he started out with murder in mind. I think that happened when she fought so much and the situation got out of control.

I think he was basically looking for cash from the start. His rent was due as was everyone else's at the start of the month, so he may have expected to find some there. And he probably thought they'd all be out or away that evening. Most in Perugia pay their rent by cash (presumably a tax dodge by the landlords). So he poked around but didn't find cash before he took his comfort break and then got disturbed by Meredith's arrival. I'm sure if she had not disturbed him, he would have taken as much as he could carry on the way out.

Some have commented that he wasn't much of a burglar because he didn't take anything (laptops etc), and hence used this as evidence of a staged break-in. But that is absurd. After the murder he had to get out asap. He probably only found M's rent money because he had to find the front door key to get out. And it was all in the purse.

That all makes perfect sense to me but I would not let go of the pre-planned assault. The attack itself seems to go way beyond what would be needed to subdue the victim. It may have fulfilled a physical need, or stimulated one. He had shown a knife to escape Tramontano and behaved calmly on being apprehended at the school, only a few days before this, and was accordingly experienced in and unfazed by these confrontations. He was in total control. Why assume he did not know or plan to get what he wanted until it chanced to be under his nose?

 

[Fine]

That makes sense. But where did Some Alibi/TJMK get their story about a knife displayed on the wall in Raffaele's apt?

________________________

Charlie,

I went back to the discussion on PMF when this replica combat knife was being discussed during May, 2010. One of the forumites asked Michael just that question....How do we know the knife was displayed by Raffaele? Michael answered that one of Raffaele's friends said so and that Massei would quote his friend as having said so. (In fairness to Michael, note, at that point in time PMF had not yet released their translation of the Massei Report.)

Fast forward to release of the English translation of the Massei Report. Massei, page 373, quotes one of Raffele's friends as having said this during his testimony on July 4, 2009............


"Saverio Binetti declared that, to Raffaele, the pocket knife was like an ornamental object [un oggetto ornamentale] which, though, when it was necessary, he made use of, and so it happened for a fruit, and for a takeaway pizza."


So, it appears, Michael (and others) had the impression that Raffaele's knives---as ornamental objects---were displayed by Raffaele on his wall, when not in use. That's not exactly what Binetti said, but this would be a reasonable inference in the case of the faux combat knife seen in court, since it would have no use ---for Raffaele---other than ornamental. As we know now, however, it wasn't a piece of evidence, wasn't one of Raffaele's knives,....... and so couldn't have adorned his apartment.

///

 

[Dougm]

Re: Recent posts about Rudy Guede's story.

Even before I read up on the evidence (or lack thereof) against AK and RS, Rudy's story was so obviously a lie, and there are clear specific instances where he reveals odd facts, clearly trying to make his story fit the evidence he knows they are going to find. He admits to the following:

* Being there at the time of the murder
* Drinking juice from the bottle in the fridge
* Taking a dump in the front bathroom
* Being cut by a knife
* Seeing Meredith bleeding to death
* Going into AK and MK's bathroom
* Trying to stop the bleeding with towels
* Getting blood on his pants
* Washing blood off his pants

The only thing he couldn't find an innocent explanation for was the break in -- if he admitted to that, his whole story of being invited in by Meredith falls apart, and he has to admit he was an intruder, which blows his cover on the murder as well.

Does anyone know, at the time of Rudy's arrest, had the idea that the police thought the break in was faked been in the media yet? What I am wondering is, did he not tell about the break in because he had no choice (it would blow is story), or because he knew that the police already thought it was staged, and he could let them blame that on Amanda and Raff?

Without Amanda and Raff being arrested already, Rudy would have had to tell the "an unkown intruder killed her while I was there" story, and then said that intruder broke the window too, or something even less believable than what he ultimately said.

 

[geebee2]

Playing with probabilities is too much of lying with statistics for my taste but that's not to say you shouldn't.

I think the another way of approaching it brings more clarity. So I'll play too!

What probability would the investigators looking for a penknife or a screwdriver as the murder weapon have given to Raffaele's kitchen knife before testing? I'd say .01%.

The circumstances under which the knife was found, and the uncanny way the policeman deduced it to be the murder weapon ( being entirely the wrong size ) invite suspicion, not of Amanda, but of police corruption. It's quite strong circumstantial evidence that the police were up to no good, and then there is the bra clasp as well. And also lies about the amount of DNA, refusal to disclose details of the testing, etc.

Which is more likely? Accidental or deliberate rigging of the DNA evidence?

I'm always inclined to veer away from conspiracy theories, so I still think it's incompetence followed by a desire to conceal the incompetence rather than anything worse, but it certainly invites suspicion.

 

[Antony]

There's a thing some people hold: if you're innocent you have nothing to be afraid of. It falls down on one simple point: it assumes the police/prosecution are interested in truth. In fact they are interested in closing/winning the case, and making themselves look good. Innocence and truth come second to all that. That's true to some degree all over the world.

Absolutely right. And it was the very obvious hallmarks of this process that marked this case out from the beginning, to anyone familiar with miscarriages of justice.

In Italy where the prosecution, police, scientific police and some of the judges are effectively all the same institution, then it's guaranteed.

To tell the truth, before I started following this case I hadn't been aware of just how pernicious the Italian justice system was - although, to be fair, a 4-year turnaround is pretty rapid compared with the worst UK travesties. But the people who bewailed the so-called "xenophobic attack on Italian justice" missed the point: the Knox supporters were better aware than most of just how much innocent people are at the mercy of judicial and police whims, everywhere.

 

[Grinder]

The only thing he couldn't find an innocent explanation for was the break in -- if he admitted to that, his whole story of being invited in by Meredith falls apart, and he has to admit he was an intruder, which blows his cover on the murder as well.

Does anyone know, at the time of Rudy's arrest, had the idea that the police thought the break in was faked been in the media yet? What I am wondering is, did he not tell about the break in because he had no choice (it would blow is story), or because he knew that the police already thought it was staged, and he could let them blame that on Amanda and Raff?

I'd suggest you check the link to old DailyMail stories. If an Italian speaker has access to early Italian coverage that would be much better since Rudy wouldn't have been reading in English.

IIRC Rudy in the Skype call made a reference to the window in Filomena's room being unbroken when he left to go dancing, but the news reports had made sound as if Meredith's window was one broken - at first we were led to believe that Meredith's room was locked from the inside and the killer had escaped out of her window. (Another item that turned out to be false).

I also recall that the staged break in theory was out before the Skype. He said that Amanda wasn't there during the Skype, which never made sense if she led him into killing Meredith or even more so if Amanda had killed Meredith.

 

[Grinder]

Wow just Wow!

I was looking for early references to the alleged staged break-in and I found this check out the picture of Amanda partying back at the UW with a bunch of guys. We've seen this picture dozens of times for example here at Sharon Feinstein's blog.

I had never seen the original or at least I didn't notice or remember that they CROPPED OUT ANOTHER WOMAN THAT WAS AT THE PARTY - the press has consistently led people to believe that Amanda was the only woman at the drinking party.

The caption on the photo from Nov. 9th read "Party people: Amanda Knox (left) often took men back to the flat she shared with Meredith Kercher"

Apparently later use of the picture extracted the other girl because, well, you know, it doesn't have the same punch when another female was there with her.

Sorry to say but this has been the theme from about day 4. Amanda bad girl - other girls very good.

 

[Antony]

The circumstances under which the knife was found, and the uncanny way the policeman deduced it to be the murder weapon ( being entirely the wrong size ) invite suspicion, not of Amanda, but of police corruption. It's quite strong circumstantial evidence that the police were up to no good, and then there is the bra clasp as well.

They are obvious conjuring tricks - not just the circumstances, but the timing of their "discovery" demonstrate this.

And also lies about the amount of DNA, refusal to disclose details of the testing, etc.

Which is more likely? Accidental or deliberate rigging of the DNA evidence?

I'm always inclined to veer away from conspiracy theories, so I still think it's incompetence followed by a desire to conceal the incompetence rather than anything worse, but it certainly invites suspicion.

That's one way of putting it, and it touches on the point made by freeski, which my previous post was an answer to. I think it's a process where the police subconsciously replaced reality with their own crime narrative, so anything they did to bolster their "version" of reality was justified by the benefit to their "truth".

It's not corruption, it's ideology - and that's also (IMHO) what motivates the PMF fraternity in their devotion to the Massei conclusions. Anything that goes against their view of reality, no matter how scientifically-based, is no more than a hostile ideology; and as such (in their minds) has no greater claim to objectivity than they do.

 

[Grinder]

I was reading another old mail story and ran across this as spoken by Meredith's Italian boyfriend"It was my birthday at the end of September but she couldn't make my party because she was flying back to England for the weekend.
"She gave me a bottle of rum as a present. Most of it was drunk at the party but there is a drop left that I will now keep for ever."

So there was rum available that night.

Halides have you located any source that negates the coroner and the professor who in the Massei report stated they believed a reading of .43g/l.

You may have noticed that elsewhere you are attributed with concluding that the alcohol in her system didn't come from drinking. I don't think that's an accurate recounting of your position. As of the last statement you made publicly on this, you have not found a source that states post mortem fermentation produces alcohol under the conditions of this murder to the extent necessary to declare she hadn't had a recent drink or two, correct?

 

[Grinder]

Another golden oldie from the Sun:

Cameras overlooking the house in Perugia have captured the 20-year-old American student, known as Foxy Knoxy, at 8.43pm on 1 November dressed in a light-coloured skirt and top.

Man, when you read these old English tab accounts it brings back the bs and why I was so skeptical of the police and prosecution.

Why isn't there an investigation of these leaks of bogus "evidence".

Another meme in the early days was that it was not only okay but the duty of the police to give the press all this bs. Either way it is legitimate reason to question the system.

 

[sln708]

I was reading another old mail story and ran across this as spoken by Meredith's Italian boyfriend"It was my birthday at the end of September but she couldn't make my party because she was flying back to England for the weekend.
"She gave me a bottle of rum as a present. Most of it was drunk at the party but there is a drop left that I will now keep for ever."

So there was rum available that night.

Grinder, please tell me you are not saying there was rum available the night Meredith was murdered?