Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[anglolawyer]

Re: the cat and the weed I read in Dempsey (p42) that Giacomo headed off as early as Monday, 29th October, asking her to take of both, which greatly expands the possible times at which she could have had to enter the apartment below. Cats like to be fed a couple of times a day but we still need an expert to tell us how many gallons and at what intervals 'seven luxuriant marijuana plants' need to sustain life.

It begins to seem reasonable that she may have gone downstairs first, which delays everything by a few minutes, maybe quite a few. If she were taking one shoe off when assaulted, as I suggest, she will surely have gone downstairs first, if at all. If not, she may have just come in to dump her bag before doing so.

Feeding the cat will have occupied some time, especially if you have to put it outside when it's finished.

 

[anglolawyer]

Interesting. Thanks. Didn't know of that idea. I will reflect on that

I lookd at the CSI vids at IIP

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/crime-scene-video-t725.html

If you look at the first one, you see there are three chairs around the table and a sort of bench seat. The chairs are all fully and neatly tucked in. Why would Rudy stop to do that? The chairs may have been tidied up a little on the morning of 02/11/2007 by Amanda or any of the people who crowded in to that confined space before the body was found. So Rudy could have righted a chair and someone else tidied it up but I just don't see him doing that. He might have sat himself at the table before Meredith arrived and taken a drink, remembered some time later he had touched the chair when seating himself and then tried to weave that fact into an exculpatory account - 'look! My prints are on that chair. It's just like I said!'

Anyways, downstairs there is a saucer outside the front door, presumably for the cat, no discernable means of feline entry or egress and no cat litter. So I think the cat stayed outside except when Meredith was preparing its food or horticulturing.

 

[Grinder]

Thanks. Now I get it. I hope you succeed in persuading everyone that what was detected was post mortem fermentation as that fits better.

There is no mention of post mortem fermentation in the Massei report by the coroner or any of the experts. The literature on the subject seems to indicate it is occurs but time and warmth are necessary. The biggest advocates for its existence are defense lawyers for estates of dead drivers that were involved in crashes, see Princess Diane.

It seems from the Massei report, that the issue was pursued by the court, as not just the coroner's report was used, but other experts were questioned on the subject.

The fact that she might have had a drink after the movies is of significant impact as to what happened after she arrived home. If she had been drinking during the movie it would slow the digestive system and would make the 4 hour time from eating to death make more sense (6pm to 10pm) as normally it would seem it should only take 2 to 3 hours to begin to move out of the stomach.

It is not as if I've taken this information from some tabloid story written in the first week from a police leak, this comes from the court motivation report and isn't used to point a finger at anybody. So why should it be doubted out of the gate?

In fact, the first reports had her dead drunk, which the Massei report explains and goes on to report the .43g/l measurement.

Just as Halides stated, I too would put MORE FAITH in a vitreous alcohol level test but we don't seem to have that. The fact that blood alcohol and liver alcohol levels were consistent for a .43 level makes me accept it unless there is new information.

To be clear, this information doesn't shift any blame to Meredith. This isn't in any way a condemnation of drinking. Me thinks that people elsewhere after making so many disparaging statements about Amanda's behavior think that anything said about Meredith that acknowledges she was a normal college student in Perugia is somehow a criticism.

This subject is just something found in official court documents that wasn't widely discussed and seems significant in what may have occurred that night.

 

[smkovalinksy]

As PMF is hoping for the appeal not only to be filed by Galati by Feb. 18, but for a call for retrial, rather than a simple one day ruling behind closed doors, I cannot help but wish that LJ's intuition about perhaps no filing is correct.

I fail to see why being booked for several months will in any way postpone the announcement of the Feb. 18 filing. And as for the retrial, I cannot imagine Italy wanting to reopen this entire thing again, when Hellmann has been so strong in his assertions, and the independent review likewise:

They have to submit their appeals, dates have to be scheduled (I expect it should only be a couple of days), then retire to consider the decision, then deliver the judgment, then 90 later the written reasons are due.

Scheduling the dates is the step: I wouldn't be surprised if the Supreme Court may already be booked out with other cases for the next three or four months (or more).

Emerald wrote:
When the official appeal is submitted by the prosecution, how long until the final ruling?

Hopefully Cassation will rule on it before the end of the year. Then if they send it back for a re-trial of the appeal (best case), it could take years more before there is a final verdict.

 

[geebee2]

The fact that she might have had a drink after the movies is of significant impact as to what happened after she arrived home. If she had been drinking during the movie it would slow the digestive system and would make the 4 hour time from eating to death make more sense (6pm to 10pm) as normally it would seem it should only take 2 to 3 hours to begin to move out of the stomach.

I think Massei states somewhere that alcohol can delay stomach emptying (Massei rather desperately tries to move the TOD later), and up to now I have accepted this. But trying to find out whether a single glass of wine would have this effect, I'm having trouble finding a reference. When I just think about it, I actually doubt whether a small quantity would have this effect.

For example, http://www.theathlete.org/drug-abuse/addiction.htm states

While lower doses of alcohol can aid digestion, moderate to higher doses stimulate the production of stomach acid and delay the emptying time of the stomach.

which implies if anything faster stomach emptying!

 

[codyjuneau]

I lookd at the CSI vids at IIP

http://www.injusticeinperugiaforum.org/crime-scene-video-t725.html
Anyways, downstairs there is a saucer outside the front door, presumably for the cat, no discernable means of feline entry or egress and no cat litter. So I think the cat stayed outside except when Meredith was preparing its food or horticulturing.

Hi Anglo

Lots of good talking points you are bringing up!

I seem to recall forum conversations about the boys leaving a window partially open to allow the cat to come and go. I think the window was barred so there was no danger of someone using it to break in. Someone else with a better memory than me can probably fill in the details.

On the issue of the cats infected and bleeding ear. I don't recall reading any reports to indicate Meredith told the English girls about the cat's infected ear starting to bleed badly or that it left blood on the furniture downstairs. That seems like something Meredith would have mentioned if she had discovered it before she left to see them.

This opens the possibility that she discovered the cat's bleeding ear when she returned to the cottage. Thus it could have been Meredith responsible for disturbing the downstairs bedding and getting cat blood on the light switch. It could even be the reason she aborted her call to her mother (when she discovered the cat had been bleeding badly).

It is difficult to reconcile this with Rudy sitting quietly on the toilet until Meredith came upstairs though (unless he really was listening to loud music on his Ipod and did not hear her downstairs).

 

[el buscador]

Hi Anglo

Lots of good talking points you are bringing up!

I seem to recall forum conversations about the boys leaving a window partially open to allow the cat to come and go. I think the window was barred so there was no danger of someone using it to break in. Someone else with a better memory than me can probably fill in the details.

On the issue of the cats infected and bleeding ear. I don't recall reading any reports to indicate Meredith told the English girls about the cat's infected ear starting to bleed badly or that it left blood on the furniture downstairs. That seems like something Meredith would have mentioned if she had discovered it before she left to see them.

This opens the possibility that she discovered the cat's bleeding ear when she returned to the cottage. Thus it could have been Meredith responsible for disturbing the downstairs bedding and getting cat blood on the light switch. It could even be the reason she aborted her call to her mother (when she discovered the cat had been bleeding badly).

It is difficult to reconcile this with Rudy sitting quietly on the toilet until Meredith came upstairs though (unless he really was listening to loud music on his Ipod and did not hear her downstairs).

What happened to the keys from the boy's house? I remember I read sometime in 2008 or 2009 that the boys keys had been found in Amanda's room. This lead me to think that rudy could have taken the wrong set of keys to the front door and then had to return to Meredith's room for a further search, leaving the boy's keys in Amanda's room and picking up her lamp to help with the search. But I think the finding of the keys in Amanda's room was also one of those rumors bandied about and the boy's keys were never found.

 

[smkovalinksy]

This opens the possibility that she discovered the cat's bleeding ear when she returned to the cottage. Thus it could have been Meredith responsible for disturbing the downstairs bedding and getting cat blood on the light switch. It could even be the reason she aborted her call to her mother (when she discovered the cat had been bleeding badly).

It is difficult to reconcile this with Rudy sitting quietly on the toilet until Meredith came upstairs though (unless he really was listening to loud music on his Ipod and did not hear her downstairs).

Not really, if you stop to consider that he likely thought the cottage was empty for the weekend. And sitting and listening to music, and even dozing off as he had been known to do, would be easy under that assumption. Then, seeing lights going on, hearing MK return, and realizing he was trapped by the locked front door would cause escalating panic.

 

[freeski]

The staged break-in doesn't necessary get "locked in" until Lumumba enters the scene, and there are three people with no burglary background and perhaps without the physical ability to do it - then, it should get locked in as staged, because with those three what other possibility is there?

Hi Bill, I think this is not so clear. If they were still open minded (i.e. not "locked in") they'd never have been so aggressive on night of 5/6. I think they'd fixed on the staged break in within a day or two.

Unless you're saying Lumumba came into the scene a couple of days before the night interview of 5/6. But is there anything to show that he was on their radar before they trawled through Amanda's messages on that fateful night. Had they already been through her phone in a previous interview? In that case, they could have had a theory all sorted out and they just needed to create a situation where they would spring it on her and pressure her to spill the beans.

 

[anglolawyer]

What happened to the keys from the boy's house? I remember I read sometime in 2008 or 2009 that the boys keys had been found in Amanda's room. This lead me to think that rudy could have taken the wrong set of keys to the front door and then had to return to Meredith's room for a further search, leaving the boy's keys in Amanda's room and picking up her lamp to help with the search. But I think the finding of the keys in Amanda's room was also one of those rumors bandied about and the boy's keys were never found.

I wondered about the keys too. I have read a lot in the last three months and not come across this story, so it must be wrong. the prosecution would surely have made something of it if true. Most likely Meredith put the downstairs keys on her own key ring, otherwise they would have been found in her bag.

Over at IIP Hans points out that crime scene pics of the marijuana show the plants looking dry and that Meredith told one of her friends on 31/10/2007 she was going to water them. He speculates this was the last time she did so. He also makes the excellent point that she might not have ventured downstairs in the dark given two recent instances of sightings within the curtilage of the apartment.

My secret is out. If I want to know something in this case, I just ask Hans.

 

[anglolawyer]

Not really, if you stop to consider that he likely thought the cottage was empty for the weekend. And sitting and listening to music, and even dozing off as he had been known to do, would be easy under that assumption. Then, seeing lights going on, hearing MK return, and realizing he was trapped by the locked front door would cause escalating panic.

On the other hand, as we are speaking of a brutal rapist and murderer who knew the occupants of both apartments, enough of their social lives to know there was a good chance of finding Meredith alone, may have been the lurker spotted in the grounds twice in the week before the murder and who stole precisely nothing after effecting entry, maybe he was just carrying out his prior intention. At least one profiler has suggested he is likely to have form for this kind of thing.

 

[freeski]

It begins to seem reasonable that she may have gone downstairs first, which delays everything by a few minutes, maybe quite a few. If she were taking one shoe off when assaulted, as I suggest, she will surely have gone downstairs first, if at all. If not, she may have just come in to dump her bag before doing so.

Your shoe idea is interesting. A couple of months ago I was looking at a photo of the bedroom and trying to work out if both shoes were still laced up. One certainly is; the other was less clear. I did wonder if she had one off and then got attacked. Of course it's possible she simply pulled off her own shoes without unlacing them. I've done that when I'm tired (as she was).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

rent money

On the other hand, as we are speaking of a brutal rapist and murderer who knew the occupants of both apartments, enough of their social lives to know there was a good chance of finding Meredith alone, may have been the lurker spotted in the grounds twice in the week before the murder and who stole precisely nothing after effecting entry, maybe he was just carrying out his prior intention. At least one profiler has suggested he is likely to have form for this kind of thing.

anglolawyer,

Although the idea of Rudy as a stalker is worth exploring, IIRC Meredith's rent money and credit cards were missing. If Rudy went as a burglar, it would probably have been with the intention of obtaining things he did not have to fence, IMO.

 

[freeski]

On the other hand, as we are speaking of a brutal rapist and murderer who knew the occupants of both apartments, enough of their social lives to know there was a good chance of finding Meredith alone, may have been the lurker spotted in the grounds twice in the week before the murder and who stole precisely nothing after effecting entry, maybe he was just carrying out his prior intention. At least one profiler has suggested he is likely to have form for this kind of thing.

I actually don't think he thought anyone would be home. And when the place was dark at say 8.30pm he would have assumed they were all out/away for the weekend. Unless he had heard from the boys downstairs what everyone's plans were. Now that would change everything, but there was no evidence of this (of course the boys would never admit to that one). So he breaks in. BTW Rudy saw himself as an athlete so he probably enjoyed the challenge of scaling high windows. Most of us get a kick out of doing things we're good at.

If we assume he's sitting there and then hears someone come in, he actually won't know who it is. And he won't know whose bedroom is whose because he's never been in the girl's cottage before. So until the moment he confronts the woman he won't know. My guess: while Mez is in her room sitting on the bed (light on so he now knows which bedroom) he could sneak out of the bathroom into the hall and peak round the door and that's when he knows who it is. Maybe that's when she sees him, stands up startled and he runs in and grabs her. Maybe he thinks his luck is in. We know he fancied her. But there's no way she was going to do anything but panic, scream and fight like hell. It's possible that once he knew one of the girls had returned, the idea of rape entered his head. Maybe it was only when he realised which one it was. Either way, I doubt he started the evening with that in mind, much less murder. But that's where it ended up.

I think the encounter is totally in the bedroom. There seems to be no evidence of things being disturbed anywhere else in the house. e.g. the drying frame in the hall is undisturbed.

I also wonder if he realised that she was fatally injured when he stripped her. It's possible he thought he had just subdued her. And it was only when she stopped breathing that he realised what he'd done, stopped the rape, and threw the duvet over her to avoid having to look. I'm not sure about that one. He could just be a sick mother. I wish he's just tell us what he did.

 

[smkovalinksy]

On the other hand, as we are speaking of a brutal rapist and murderer who knew the occupants of both apartments, enough of their social lives to know there was a good chance of finding Meredith alone, may have been the lurker spotted in the grounds twice in the week before the murder and who stole precisely nothing after effecting entry, maybe he was just carrying out his prior intention. At least one profiler has suggested he is likely to have form for this kind of thing.

Yes. This alternative scenario is believable, and fits in with Guede's history as well as what I have proposed.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hi Bill, I think this is not so clear. If they were still open minded (i.e. not "locked in") they'd never have been so aggressive on night of 5/6. I think they'd fixed on the staged break in within a day or two.

Unless you're saying Lumumba came into the scene a couple of days before the night interview of 5/6. But is there anything to show that he was on their radar before they trawled through Amanda's messages on that fateful night. Had they already been through her phone in a previous interview? In that case, they could have had a theory all sorted out and they just needed to create a situation where they would spring it on her and pressure her to spill the beans.

Those are two issues - the aggressiveness of the interrogation as opposed to when they got "locked-in" to the staged break in.

I'm not sure if Demspey argues this way or if it was the conclusion I drew to the way she argued....

I think the police got aggressive with Knox solely on the basis of Edda being on her way. They were already highly suspicious of Knox because of her "weird" behaviour, but the miminalists among the police would have kept their eye on the investigative path they were trying to solve - ie. the role if any that the known key holders might have played. (Please don't get diverted yet to the fact there could have been other key holders, it's just that Romanelli and Knox are known.)

Romanelli had weird behaviour of her own, she'd gone back into the crime-scene after it had been secrued as one to fetch her laptop. Yet Romanelli had lawyered up, and was unavailable - esp. in the frantic pressure to close this case.

The assumed status of the break in as "staged" was only an investigative clue to follow Knox and Romanelli and nothing more. No need to lock it in, until.....

.... the police believe they only have one more chance with keyholder #2 before mom arrives with a lawyer like keyholder #1 had done. And as luck would have it, the "see you later" was aimed at Lumumba. There it was, the text-msg in black and white.

And guess what? Lumumba could no more manage a break-in than either Knox or Sollecito. It must have seemed to the cops that all the initial instincts had been borne out. "Wow, we really are smarter than we think! The break-in was staged after all!"

The aggressiveness of the interrogation, meant because Edda is on her way with the Cavalry, has paid off - it has also cemented the status of the staging of the break-in, only formerly hypothosized to narrow the investigation on to key holders.

Then again, once Guede is on the scene, why they didn't abandon the staging of the break-in as being necessary, is beyond me.

 

[RWVBWL]

<snip>
On the downstairs flat thing can you please cast your mind back to your own college days and tell us how much watering cannabis needs? From the CSI vids those look like pretty big and thirsty plants and Giacomo will have been sure to have given precise instructions so as not to lose his valuable crop.
<snip>

Re: the cat and the weed I read in Dempsey (p42) that Giacomo headed off as early as Monday, 29th October, asking her to take of both, which greatly expands the possible times at which she could have had to enter the apartment below. Cats like to be fed a couple of times a day but we still need an expert to tell us how many gallons and at what intervals 'seven luxuriant marijuana plants' need to sustain life.
<snip>

Hi Anglolawyer,
I've read it before that on the last afternoon of her life,
"Meredith studied for a few hours, trying to finish a paper that was due on Monday, and then went downstairs to water the pot. When she finished, she sent Giacomo a flirty text message saying how excited she was to see him when he got back."

"Around 3:00pm, too tired to study, Meredith left via della Pergola, to visit her friend Robyn"* etc, etc, etc..

Anyone know from court testimony what that text to Giacomo said?
If true, I doubt that Miss Kercher watered the pot plants again that night.

But I can see her coming home and checking up on the cat and getting it some food, for I've had to do the same before whilest cat-sitting for a gal pal away on vacation before I went home and finished my own day and grabbed some shuteye.

Why wouldn't Meredith want to feed the cat when she got home?

Anyways, I'm glad to see folks exploring the often overlooked clues such as the cats blood, the downstairs keys and the car seen parked in the driveway...

Take it easy, RW


* - ANGEL FACE, the true story of student killer Amanda Knox
Page 36, Author: Barbie Latza Nadeau

 

[Teddy2007]

It is difficult to reconcile this with Rudy sitting quietly on the toilet until Meredith came upstairs though (unless he really was listening to loud music on his Ipod and did not hear her downstairs).

The problem with Rudy's iPod story is that this iPod was never found and there is no record of him having ever owned one.

 

[anglolawyer]

Not really, if you stop to consider that he likely thought the cottage was empty for the weekend. And sitting and listening to music, and even dozing off as he had been known to do, would be easy under that assumption. Then, seeing lights going on, hearing MK return, and realizing he was trapped by the locked front door would cause escalating panic.

Can I add something about toilet paper [moderator alert: the word 'arse' will appear in this post for reasons of exposition]? He wiped his arse with it. That means he had time to do so. I think there is more than one scrunched up ball of paper in the toilet. It means Meredith did not burst in on him while he was listening to music, precipitating a struggle in the kitchen, unless the wiping and her return precisely coincided. It also means he had to take off the gloves he will have worn when effecting entry.

We can do the same thing with Rudy as with Meredith: enumerate all the actions he performed after entry. He breaks in, stumbles about somewhat in Filomena's room, maybe only to cross to the door, drinks something from the fridge (I have only encountered that in forum posts so if there is a source for it I should be interested) takes a dump and wipes his bottom. How long does that take?

We can be pretty sure he did not go into Laura or Amanda's rooms (no prints and no disturbance) and he did not get up to much in the kitchen, certainly not in comparison with the activities recorded at the lawyers' office in Perugia (items arranged on desks, broken glass moved to another part of the office and arranged in a neat pile) or his neighbours apartment (meal prepared, fire started, cat killed).

If one posits a later TOD, how do those involved fill the time? Rudy could be sitting on the toilet for hours listening to his iPod I guess but, in that case, what is Meredith doing? Not undressing, not lying down, not sitting down, not reading, not phoning mum, not retrieving laundry, not using her computer. What else is there?

 

[anglolawyer]

I actually don't think he thought anyone would be home. And when the place was dark at say 8.30pm he would have assumed they were all out/away for the weekend. Unless he had heard from the boys downstairs what everyone's plans were. Now that would change everything, but there was no evidence of this (of course the boys would never admit to that one). So he breaks in. BTW Rudy saw himself as an athlete so he probably enjoyed the challenge of scaling high windows. Most of us get a kick out of doing things we're good at.

If we assume he's sitting there and then hears someone come in, he actually won't know who it is. And he won't know whose bedroom is whose because he's never been in the girl's cottage before. So until the moment he confronts the woman he won't know. My guess: while Mez is in her room sitting on the bed (light on so he now knows which bedroom) he could sneak out of the bathroom into the hall and peak round the door and that's when he knows who it is. Maybe that's when she sees him, stands up startled and he runs in and grabs her. Maybe he thinks his luck is in. We know he fancied her. But there's no way she was going to do anything but panic, scream and fight like hell. It's possible that once he knew one of the girls had returned, the idea of rape entered his head. Maybe it was only when he realised which one it was. Either way, I doubt he started the evening with that in mind, much less murder. But that's where it ended up.

I think the encounter is totally in the bedroom. There seems to be no evidence of things being disturbed anywhere else in the house. e.g. the drying frame in the hall is undisturbed.

I also wonder if he realised that she was fatally injured when he stripped her. It's possible he thought he had just subdued her. And it was only when she stopped breathing that he realised what he'd done, stopped the rape, and threw the duvet over her to avoid having to look. I'm not sure about that one. He could just be a sick mother. I wish he's just tell us what he did.

Definitely check so far as the sick mother thing goes. I think he tried to staunch the bleeding not to save her life but to preserve his own arousal. Blood is very smelly and I think he writes about that in one of his letters. Check also on first confrontation being in the bedroom.

As for knowledge of the boys' plans I would put the chances of that pretty high. He has a professional interest in such things and might easily have discerned their intentions deliberately or by chance ('see you for some hoops tomorrow? Oh, really? Well, enjoy your weekend'). He chose that one place out of all of Perugia and did not set about stealing anything upon arrival. He is also a sick mother who was turned on enough to ejaculate over his victim while she was dying and gushing blood, having first stripped her and arranged her body for penetration. That's pretty far out when you think about it.