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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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As for attempting to apply "some standard" to both topics, I did ask for equivalent examples, "Show me an example of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept witches". Nobody has done that because they know it is absurd and it exposes the strawman for what it is.


It has been asked before, but the question seems to have been ignored, can you show us an example of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept an alien craft? Could it be that nobody has done that because they know it is absurd and it exposes vacuous nature of "ufology" for what it is? Shouldn't we be looking for constructive contributions to "ufology" over and above a general interest, even when those constructive contributions end up peeling back its pretense of legitimacy?
 
Actually given the claimed characteristics of the supposed craft in many sightings appear to violate the laws of physics it most assuredly does.
Exactly, Garrison. And may I give an example of how a ufologist requires a belief in the supernatural to come to his conclusions that UFO = alien craft?

http://www.ufopages.com/Common/Control/Reframe_T1.htm?../../Reference/FS/Murphy-02a.htm
folo said:
Then it lit up, ascended straight up to about 300 meters, stopped instantly for about two seconds, then traced a graceful infinity symbol about 300 meters wide at a 30 degree angle to the right ( south ) of its starting point. It traced the symbol precisely in the same place four times in about 7 seconds, leaving a glowing trail of light behind, not unlike the effect of waving a glow-stick in a dark room.

....

....the orb came up again. It rose vertically to about 300 meters and stopped instantly. Only instead of repeating the infinity symbol maneuver, it turned bright white and instantly accelerated north up the valley as far as I could see. Quite literally, from where I was standing it traveled over 25 kilometers in about 1 second ... from a dead stop.

Now, to conclude that this light was a firefly does not require a belief in the supernatural (aka that which is beyond the realms of what we call nature). Believing that it's an alien vehicle of some sort, on the other hand... well, that's a different matter.
 
Again: What I claim is that this isn't the place to discuss witches or witchcraft. And for the record, I haven't made any statement about accepting or rejecting evidence for one topic or the other, only pointed out that the two topics differ in nature, witchcraft requiring a belief in the supernatural, while ufology has no such requisite. In fact, ufology doesn't even require a belief that UFOs exist or are extraterrestrial. As for attempting to apply "some standard" to both topics, I did ask for equivalent examples, "Show me an example of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept witches". Nobody has done that because they know it is absurd and it exposes the strawman for what it is.

You are talking around my point and not at all addressing it.

Do you agree that "If evidence for witches is insufficient based on some standard, then applying the same standard to aliens will also show insufficient evidence."

Paul
 
Again: What I claim is that this isn't the place to discuss witches or witchcraft. And for the record, I haven't made any statement about accepting or rejecting evidence for one topic or the other, only pointed out that the two topics differ in nature, witchcraft requiring a belief in the supernatural, while ufology has no such requisite. In fact, ufology doesn't even require a belief that UFOs exist or are extraterrestrial. As for attempting to apply "some standard" to both topics, I did ask for equivalent examples, "Show me an example of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept witches". Nobody has done that because they know it is absurd and it exposes the strawman for what it is.

Since you don't have any episodes where Air Force jets were vectored by radar to targets which were subsequently positively identified as alien spacecraft, how can you show that none of those episodes were Air Force jets being vectored to intercept witches?

They were unidentified. Since their identity isn't known, there's no logical reason any of those episodes couldn't have been witches. Furthermore, you've shown no evidence that aliens are actually here. In contrast, there are many legal proceedings recorded which resulted in a witch being positively identified.

I think your examples of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept alien craft are more likely misidentifications of witches.
 
Again: What I claim is that this isn't the place to discuss witches or witchcraft.


You claim lots of stuff. So what?

In any case, this isn't the place to discuss alien flying saucers either, but you've done little else since you got here.

The thread is about UFOs, and until you can provide some sort of evidence to the contrary then witches and flying saucers are equally valid as topics for discussion.

Why do you hate witches?


And for the record, I haven't made any statement about accepting or rejecting evidence for one topic or the other, only pointed out that the two topics differ in nature, witchcraft requiring a belief in the supernatural, while ufology has no such requisite.


Let's see . . .


supernatural

Adjective: (of a manifestation or event) Attributed to a force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.​

That would certainly appear to cover alien flying saucers, especially the kind that you allege to have seen yourself, so your objection seems spurious.

I have absolutely no doubt that you will now go on for pages and pages about how this definition of 'supernatural' doesn't apply to flying saucers but just like all of your previous forays into Special Pleading Land you'll be shown to be spectacularly wrong.

sic vita est


In fact, ufology doesn't even require a belief that UFOs exist or are extraterrestrial.


If ever anyone was looking for the single best reason to declare that ufailogy is nothing more than pseudoscience, this would be my nomination.


As for attempting to apply "some standard" to both topics, I did ask for equivalent examples, "Show me an example of Air Force jets being vectored by radar to intercept witches".


They'd be exactly the same examples that you've used, except that instead of using a crayon to strike out "UFO" and insert "OMG . . . aliens!" we would find a footnote saying:

1 possible witch.​


Nobody has done that because they know it is absurd and it exposes the strawman for what it is.


Nobody has done it because there are exactly the same number of confirmed witch sightings (zero) as there are confirmed Omgalien sightings.
 
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Ufology, the topic of this thread is UFOs,, but that doesn't mean that *anything* can't br brought in to make a point, *especially* if it's explicitly part of an analogy.

By definition, an analogy is going to bring in a separate topic to make a point about the current topic.

Please.
 
Ufology, the topic of this thread is UFOs,, but that doesn't mean that *anything* can't br brought in to make a point, *especially* if it's explicitly part of an analogy.

By definition, an analogy is going to bring in a separate topic to make a point about the current topic.

Please.


The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc., then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?

To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist, and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist. Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature. Because we still don't know where they come from, and all investigations have failed to identify the "unknowns" as coming from our own civilization, they are alien in nature.

In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist, and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it will no longer be supernatural.
 
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The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc., then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?

To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist, and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist. Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature.

In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist, and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it is no longer supernatural.

What evidence do you have that witches aren't simply using what Arthur C. Clarke described as "sufficiently advanced technology"?
 
The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc., then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?

Given the capabilities ascribed to such 'craft' yes.

To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist, and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist.

Within the context of UFOs there is no evidence such craft actually exist and since many sighting, including your own, would require vehicles that violate the laws of physics in exactly the same way as magic spells would it is in fact unreasonable to suppose that they do exist.


Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature. Because we still don't know where they come from, and all investigations have failed to identify the "unknowns" as coming from our own civilization, they are alien in nature.

Again you try to assert that unknown must mean strange or exotic rather than simply inadequate evidence to make an identification, you keep trying this, it keeps being rejected.

In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist, and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.

We know there are a number of sightings where the cause is 'unknown' this does not in any way shape or form equate to 'alien craft'. You also appear to believe that the existing laws of physics can simply be ignored when they get in the way or your world view, again this makes your 'alien craft' supernatural and no more or less likely than witches.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it will no longer be supernatural.

So your alien craft and witches are still on an equal footing based on the available evidence, still both mired in the realm of the supernatural and being promoted by believers who want to raise subjective experience above hard evidence.
 
The analogy is flawed.


No, just your understanding of it.


However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc. . .


See, I told you that you didn't understand.

The point of the analogy is simply that when the evidence is examined there's no valid reason to conclude that any given UFO report/sighting is more likely to be the result of Omgaliens than it is of witches.


. . . then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?


There's no discussion to be had there at all because you're incapable of overcoming your fatal attraction to the idea that UFOs = "OMG . . . aliens!"

As long as you remain wrong about that then you're going to be wrong about every other aspect of the discussion as well.


To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist . . .


For the billionth time, nobody is arguing that alien craft cannot exist.


. . . and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist.


You're presenting a non sequitur conclusion in response to your own strawman.


Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature.


The first part of the above says nothing that is either remarkable or that is at odds with what everyone else here has been trying to tell you for months.

The highlighted bit is just crap you made up.


Because we still don't know where they come from, but all investigations have failed to identify them as coming from our own civilization, they are alien in nature.


Unidentified ≠ alien, no matter how many times you stamp your widdle foot and say "are too!"


<waffle>

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it is no longer supernatural.


What contrast? There is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains alien flying saucers either, folo. That makes them every bit as supernatural as wyverns, witches and will o' the wisps.
 
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Again you try to assert that unknown must mean strange or exotic rather than simply inadequate evidence to make an identification, you keep trying this, it keeps being rejected.


Folo's refusal to back away from this ridiculous conflation has long since transcended any likelyhood of simple misunderstanding and can surely no longer be seen as anything other than blatant intellectual dishonesty.

Although calling it intellectual is probably giving it way more credit than is due.
 
The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc., then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?

To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist, and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist. Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature. Because we still don't know where they come from, and all investigations have failed to identify the "unknowns" as coming from our own civilization, they are alien in nature.

In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist, and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it will no longer be supernatural.

They are considered as much a threat to security and aviation as pegusus and witches and for the same reasons - we have no reason to believe they exist. Your belief that the plural of annecdotes is evidence or that unidentified means OMG ... aliens is not shared by any defence or aviation body, despite your dishonest suggestions otherwise.
 
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The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc.,. . ..

*My* analogy's point is not that. Our heretic pharoah beat me to it, IDing my analogy's point in
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7934915#post7934915
 
Do you agree that "If evidence for witches is insufficient based on some standard, then applying the same standard to aliens will also show insufficient evidence."

You have still not answered this question.

For extra credit (and to save time), show your work.
 
ufology said:
In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist, and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it will no longer be supernatural.

Please explain the difference between flying orbs with "anti-gravity cloaking devices" violating the laws of physics and witches on brooms violating the laws of physics. Seems to me that both are imagination based.
 
The analogy is flawed. However if you would like to focus on the point of the analogy, which is that idea of visitation by alien craft is equally supernatural or paranormal ( beyond what is deemed scientifically possible - Wikipedia ) to such things as witchcraft, ghosts, demons, etc., then we can continue the discussion on that level by focusing on this question: Is a belief in UFOs the same as a belief in the supernatural or paranormal?


Yes. Critical thinking people would say it's just the same and just as irrational.

To the above I would say "No" because there is no scientific reason alien craft cannot exist, and given the number and quality of reports and studies done in the modern age, it is unreasonable to deny they exist.


Absolutely wrong. It is exactly as reasonable to deny they exist as it is to deny the existence of ESP, ghosts, gods, the Loch Ness Monster, Bigfoot, psychics, and spell casting witches. There is, after all, exactly the same amount of evidence to support the existence of any as of any other. (ETA: Actually there is much evidence for the existence of some of those while the evidence for the existence of alien craft is itself nonexistent.)

And you would know that if just once you'd set aside the ignorance that comes from blind faith and answer the question: Of all the things perceived to be flying objects, things which were at first unidentified but later identified as a particular thing, how many of them turned out to be alien craft? Faith that alien craft exist doesn't make them exist. What is unreasonable is to claim they do exist based on nothing more than faith. And for "ufology", apparently faith is all there is.

Modern day official conclusions don't deny UFOs exist, they merely deem they are "no threat to national security" or that they "don't represent technological developments outside the range of present-day knowledge", both of which do not preclude their existence nor their advanced nature.


Unless you can point out where any modern day official conclusions have demonstrated that alien craft exist, your above comment is simply an attempt to rationalize your faith.

Because we still don't know where they come from, [...]


Hold the show. Where they come from? It is wholly unreasonable to consider such a ridiculous concept since, after all, nobody has ever demonstrated that alien craft even exist.

[...] and all investigations have failed to identify the "unknowns" as coming from our own civilization, they are alien in nature.


Do you really think your dishonest attempt to redefine terms is going to eventually work? Seriously. Yes or no?

In other words, not being a threat doesn't mean they don't exist,


Not being a threat doesn't in any way support the notion that "they" do exist either. In fact, and I'm sure everyone who isn't irrationally convinced that some UFOs are alien craft, the thing about them that makes them not a threat is the fact that there is no evidence to suggest they do exist.

[...] and almost anything can be within the "range" of knowledge ... even back then. What isn't within our range is the engineering capability. In other words, we know it's real so it must be scientifically possible, but that doesn't mean we can duplicate it ... yet.


Only the deluded know it's real. Rational, critically thinking, aware people understand that the complete lack of evidence for the existence of alien craft makes it unreasonable to claim any such knowledge.

In contrast, there is no "range of scientific knowledge" that explains the supernatural. It is by definition outside that possibility, and if it ever is shown to be within the realm of scientific plausibility, then it will no longer be supernatural.


The range of scientific knowledge that explains the supernatural is exactly the same as the range of scientific knowledge that supports the claim that some UFOs are alien craft. Ignorance of that fact doesn't change it.
 
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What evidence do you have that witches aren't simply using what Arthur C. Clarke described as "sufficiently advanced technology"?


With respect to the issue of sufficiently advanced technology, the quote is, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." and what Clark is saying is that from the perspective of a comparatively primitive couture who believes in the supernatural, the powers of advanced technology are indistinguishable ( to them ) from magic.

The big difference is that today, scientific thinking is such that when we conclude that a phenomenon exists, we can safely assume that there is a scientific explanation, even if the phenomenon isn't yet within our capacity to duplicate or fully explain. Ufology falls squarely into this category. It is not a belief in the supernatural. BTW: Arthur C. Clarke also believed in the scientific plausibility of interstellar travel.
 
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The big difference is that today, scientific thinking is such that when we conclude that a phenomenon exists, we can safely assume that there is a scientific explanation, even if the phenomenon isn't yet within our capacity to duplicate or fully explain.

The phenomenon of seeing something one can't identify exists.

The phenomenon of credulous faith-based believers calling these sightings "alien craft" also exists.

The phenomenon of the sighting being duplicated and even fully explained, only to be denied by credulous believers in alien visitation also exists.


Ufology falls squarely into this category. It is not a belief in the supernatural.
That is a lie.
 
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