Rick Santorum is an idiot, a bigot, and morally inconsistent...

[RandFan]

However, as we don't condemn/prohibit all recreational driving, it wouldn't make my point.

Which is the point you are missing. There is no reasonable basis to condemn cheating.

That there is a risk IS NOT ITSELF sufficient.

One more time, you can't reasonably pawn this off to the idiots who condemn cheating. By all means play devils advocate but don't break the rules of logic just because they would. At some point you need to step up to the plate and admit they are standing on shaky ground. If risk alone is not sufficient to condemn recreational driving then it's not sufficient to condemn cheating. That THEY condemn cheating for arbitrary reasons is pointless. If you want to use this line of argument then you will need more than special pleading.

 

[bikerdruid]

yes, but nothing that is exclusively queer sexual acts.
as i said before, there are many queers, myself included, who do not have anal sex.
oral sex is much safer than even vaginal sex, and manual sex is entirely safe.

so just what are you referring to?

Anal sex by homosexuals and to a lesser extent by a clueless woman with a bi-sexual partner or one that shares needles.

you totally ignored my post before repeating the bigoted stuff.
anal sex is no more dangerous trhan vaginal sex.
many hetero couple also enjoy anal sex.
and as i said, many queers do not take part in either, and oral sex and manual sex are much safer.
there is no truth to your claim that queers are more dangerous than straights.
drop the ignorance and lies.

 

[AvalonXQ]

This is our most recent back-and-forth, as I understand it.

SG: Argument X.

AXQ: Argument X is invalid because of Argument Y.

RF: Argument Y is insufficient to support Position Z.

AXQ: I wasn't using Argument Y to support Position Z; I was using it to refute Argument X.

RF: Oh, come off it, you know that Argument Y isn't good enough to support Position Z. Stop trying to hide it.

AXQ: Again, I was using Argument Y to explain why Argument X is invalid, not as sufficient support for Position Z.

RF: Stop trying to support Position Z with Argument Y...

etc

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Position Z requires sufficient support to not be ridiculously tiring for both partners, anyway. I recommend one of those swings you buy in catalogs with discreet shipping.

 

[RandFan]

This is our most recent back-and-forth, as I understand it.

SG: Argument X.

AXQ: Argument X is invalid because of Argument Y.

RF: Argument Y is insufficient to support Position Z.

AXQ: I wasn't using Argument Y to support Position Z; I was using it to refute Argument X.

RF: Oh, come off it, you know that Argument Y isn't good enough to support Position Z. Stop trying to hide it.

AXQ: Again, I was using Argument Y to explain why Argument X is invalid, not as sufficient support for Position Z.

RF: Stop trying to support Position Z with Argument Y...

etc

No.

AXQ: I was using Argument Y to refute Argument X

RF: Argument Y is loaded. Why not use Argument A?

AXQ: Argument A isn't condemned.

RF: Argument X isn't reasonable condemned.

You are using guilt by association. Your point could be made with "A" but it isn't loaded so you use "X" instead.

 

[AvalonXQ]

Position Z requires sufficient support to not be ridiculously tiring for both partners, anyway. I recommend one of those swings you buy in catalogs with discreet shipping.

In Santorum's America, I expect those catalogs will be smuggled in from Canada.

 

[AvalonXQ]

No.

Yes. We've reached an impasse. We can get back to the basic point, because this particular sidetrack isn't getting us anywhere.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Made it significantly easier to decide to do.

Cheating's not a simple topic. I can understand the desire to live in a society that vilifies cheating rather than glorifying it.

Who gives a rat's ass how easy someone made it. You are talking about adult men cheating on their spouses and refusing to take personal responsibility for their personal behavior.

What a joke!

 

[AvalonXQ]

Who gives a rat's ass how easy someone made it. You are talking about adult men cheating on their spouses and refusing to take personal responsibility for their personal behavior.

Who said anything about a refusal to take personal responsibility?

Nobody's talking about absolving anyone of responsibility for their own actions -- but don't act like the cultural situations is completely neutral to those actions.

When somebody talks about a "rape culture", are they implying that rapists aren't responsible for the decision to rape?

When somebody points out that ever since the Exampletown Factory went bankrupt the rate of burglary and petty theft in Exampletown has tripled, are they implying that thieves aren't responsible for the decision to steal?

Similarly, pointing out that cheating and infidelity-based divorce are more prevalent in a society that glorifies illicit sex isn't excusing cheating.

It's silly to think that cheating won't be more common when cheating is tacitly accepted and adulterous affairs are culturally admired. It's silly to think that, in any area, cultural pressures won't have a positive or negative effect on our society.

After all, adult women and men with eating disorders must also take personal responsibility for their behavior.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Factually incorrect.

http://www.cdc.gov/hiv/topics/surveillance/basic.htm#hivaidsexposure

Just what did I say that was factually incorrect? You linked to a US data report. It agrees with what I said.

Did you miss this from the beginning of your link?

Unless otherwise noted, the following data are from the CDC HIV Surveillance Report: Diagnoses of HIV infection and AIDS in the United States and Dependent Areas, 2009.

Worldwide:

AIDS is caused by HIV, a virus that can be passed from person to person through sexual fluids, blood and breast milk. Worldwide the majority of HIV infections are transmitted through sex between men and women, and half of all adults living with HIV are women.3 But certain groups of people have been particularly affected and these include injecting drug users, sex workers and men who have sex with men. In many people’s minds, HIV and AIDS are closely linked with these groups, which can lead to even greater stigma and prejudice against people already treated as outsiders.

Many Western countries, such as the UK, have increasing rates of HIV transmission through heterosexual sex. In America, where more than a million people are living with HIV, heterosexual sex accounts for one third of new diagnoses.4

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Who said anything about a refusal to take personal responsibility?

Nobody's talking about absolving anyone of responsibility for their own actions -- but don't act like the cultural situations is completely neutral to those actions.

When somebody talks about a "rape culture", are they implying that rapists aren't responsible for the decision to rape?

When somebody points out that ever since the Exampletown Factory went bankrupt the rate of burglary and petty theft in Exampletown has tripled, are they implying that thieves aren't responsible for the decision to steal?

Similarly, pointing out that cheating and infidelity-based divorce are more prevalent in a society that glorifies illicit sex isn't excusing cheating.

It's silly to think that cheating won't be more common when cheating is tacitly accepted and adulterous affairs are culturally admired. It's silly to think that, in any area, cultural pressures won't have a positive or negative effect on our society.

After all, adult women and men with eating disorders must also take personal responsibility for their behavior.

If you are going to mention the need/desire/importance of decreasing the ease with which a behavior can occur, you are saying the equivalent of the devil made him/her do it. That's just nonsense. Maybe I don't want my kid to have easy access to drugs but when it comes to adults, why should the government spend any effort whatsoever making access to sex less available?

 

[fuelair]

...or maybe he is just insane.

What do you think?

What are these morals of which you speak? I know Santorum is frothy, but moral???

 

[RandFan]

Who said anything about a refusal to take personal responsibility?

Instead of leaving the decisions up to individuals you are arguing that our culture should deem the behavior bad thus removing personal responsiblty about what is and is not moral. You deem the activity immoral and then declare it's up to the individual to accept your morality.

Nobody's talking about absolving anyone of responsibility for their own actions -- but don't act like the cultural situations is completely neutral to those actions.

Which is all silly as you've not told us to what extent the behavior is harmful or risky or why these kinds of personal decisions should be treated like or compared to drunk driving and rape.

When somebody talks about a "rape culture", are they implying that rapists aren't responsible for the decision to rape?

Here we go again. Rape is a crime. Having consensual sex with another adult isn't. In fact, it's none of your business. Move to Sudi Arabia if you don't like our laws. And I'm tired of you pawning this off on others. Stand up and at least admit you don't care for sexual freedom.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I only read bits and pieces of this thread....and I what I got from it was that apparently Rick Santorum is a Nazi.....and maybe the most evil person to ever grace the earth.... I bet he eats 3 puppies for breakfast.

I've run into this argumentative technique several times lately (on this thread, and also on the thread about the racist and looney comments in Ron Paul's newsletter).

That Santorum is not a Nazi doesn't mean he's not a bigot.

It's a flagrant straw man argument.

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I only read bits and pieces of this thread....and I what I got from it was that apparently Rick Santorum is a Nazi.....and maybe the most evil person to ever grace the earth.... I bet he eats 3 puppies for breakfast.

Can't fool you, no sir!

Oh, you left out one thing: Mr. Santorum is not, nor was ever, going to be President of the United States. The White House chef can therefore keep his recipe for l'omelette de chien safely tucked away.

 

[AvalonXQ]

If you are going to mention the need/desire/importance of decreasing the ease with which a behavior can occur, you are saying the equivalent of the devil made him/her do it.

No, I'm not.

People who criticize rape culture are not excusing rapists; people who point out how crime increases with poverty are not excusing criminals.

People who criticize sexual culture are not excusing infidelity.

In all these cases, they're acknowledging that things don't happen in a vacuum.

That's just nonsense.

We both agree that your strawman position is nonsense.

Maybe I don't want my kid to have easy access to drugs but when it comes to adults, why should the government spend any effort whatsoever making access to sex less available?

Because the government has an interest in healthy families, and these things are a threat to families.
That would be the reason.

 

[AvalonXQ]

And I'm tired of you pawning this off on others. Stand up and at least admit you don't care for sexual freedom.

Stop with the personal attacks. They're inappropriate and inaccurate.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

OK, AvalonXQ, you've denied what we think you meant, so what did you mean by the following?:

So, a married man might be tempted to have sex with a man or a woman not his wife. If such sex is readily available and such behavior is culturally acceptable, then the married man is more likely to give into temptation. If the sex is not readily availabel and/or such behavior is culturally reviled, then the married man might not give into temptation.

...The availability and acceptance of cheating on the basis of homosexual identity (be true to yourself!) or oversexed culture (everybody does it!) contributes to marital infidelity.

A culture hostile to family values will have fewer healthy, functioning families.

 

[AvalonXQ]

OK, AvalonXQ, you've denied what we think you meant, so what did you mean by the following?:

What is it that I've denied that you think I meant?

 

[RandFan]

Stop with the personal attacks. They're inappropriate and inaccurate.

Associating sexual freedom with rape and negligence is not appropriate. If you want to make that argument then I just ask that you own it. That's all and it's fair.