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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Robert Prey said:
And how about Gerald Posner? Your favorite, practically your only source. A good and reliable source?
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I quoted Posner on the Parkland doctors because he did something that few conspiracy theorists have bothered to do. He actually went to Dallas and interviewed them for his book. (The quotes were actually from the doctors as quoted by Posner, btw.) Posner's book was published in 1993 and he if misquoted anyone they've had plenty of time to complain but none have done so to my knowledge.

Speaking of books, I was at the library yesterday and noticed Livingstone's High Treason 2 looking lonely on the shelf so I brought it home. (Since I'm interested in the history of the JFK years, I see the conspiracy titles sitting cheek and jowl with the factual historical volumes every time I visit the library. In fact the conspiracy books are always on the shelves collecting dust. Nobody seems to check them out.)

I haven't had time to peruse the Livingstone book in any detail but I noticed in the chapter on Parkland he devotes five pages to Charles "Fibber" Crenshaw and McCelland is cited heavily in the index. I'll give a more detailed critique of the book later.
 
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Tomtomkent said:
You mean like the large exit wound on the temple in the uncropped version ofthe deathstare?

Or the Z film?
The polaroid?

Those don't show actual wounds?

Robert has it backwards. The testemony should be dismissed for not matching the evidence. I have no idea why he is throwing the baby away and keeping the bathwater.
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He has to do that, otherwise he (and all JFK conspiracists) have no argument.

- They throw out the shells at the TSBD
- They throw out the rifle at the TSBD
- They throw out Oswald's prints found on that rifle
- They throw out Oswald's prints found on the boxes in the sniper's nest window
- They throw out the nearly whole bullet found at Parkland traceable to Oswald's weapon
- They throw out the two large bullet fragments found in the limo traceable to Oswald's weapon
- They throw out the order form showing Oswald ordered the rifle
- They throw out the Money Order Oswald used to purchase the rifle
- They throw out the shipment of the rifle to Oswald's PO Box
- They throw out the photos of Oswald with that rifle in his Neely Street backyard
- They throw out the autopsy
- They throw out the autopsy x-rays
- They throw out the autopsy photos
- They throw out JFK's body
- They throw out the Zapruder film, the Nix film, and all the other films taken that day.

In the place of all that evidence (and much more), they *always* substitute witness testimony. Depending upon the argument they want to advance they select judiciously from the witness statements to (ahem) 'prove' their case.

Robert Prey is no different.

He claims the doctors at Parkland can't possibly be wrong. He also claims the autopsy photos are forgeries (except when he cites one as evidence of an entry wound in the forehead). He claims there was a shooter on the knoll, and his shot caused the damage evident in Z-313 and in subsequent frames.

Of course, as established above, he cannot even get his wound locations and his knoll shooter to align properly.

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
He has to do that, otherwise he (and all JFK conspiracists) have no argument.

- They throw out the shells at the TSBD
- They throw out the rifle at the TSBD
- They throw out Oswald's prints found on that rifle
- They throw out Oswald's prints found on the boxes in the sniper's nest window
- They throw out the nearly whole bullet found at Parkland traceable to Oswald's weapon
- They throw out the two large bullet fragments found in the limo traceable to Oswald's weapon
- They throw out the order form showing Oswald ordered the rifle
- They throw out the Money Order Oswald used to purchase the rifle
- They throw out the shipment of the rifle to Oswald's PO Box
- They throw out the photos of Oswald with that rifle in his Neely Street backyard
- They throw out the autopsy
- They throw out the autopsy x-rays
- They throw out the autopsy photos
- They throw out JFK's body
- They throw out the Zapruder film, the Nix film, and all the other films taken that day.
I
Hank
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Now then, of all those items, which would be your one single strongest piece of evidence for One Lone Nutter and no accomplices????

(Crickets Chirping)
 
Walter Ego said:
I quoted Posner on the Parkland doctors because he did something that few conspiracy theorists have bothered to do. He actually went to Dallas and interviewed them for his book. (The quotes were actually from the doctors as quoted by Posner, btw.) Posner's book was published in 1993 and he if misquoted anyone they've had plenty of time to complain but none have done so to my knowledge.

Speaking of books, I was at the library yesterday and noticed Livingstone's High Treason 2 looking lonely on the shelf so I brought it home. (Since I'm interested in the history of the JFK years, I see the conspiracy titles sitting cheek and jowl with the factual historical volumes every time I visit the library. In fact the conspiracy books are always on the shelves collecting dust. Nobody seems to check them out.)

I haven't had time to peruse the Livingstone book in any detail but I noticed in the chapter on Parkland he devotes five pages to Charles "Fibber" Crenshaw and McCelland is cited heavily in the index. I'll give a more detailed critique of the book later.
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Isn't this the third or fourth time you've called Crenshaw a fibber? You've been corrected on this several times. What is your problem?
 
Robert Prey said:
Now then, of all those items, which would be your one single strongest piece of evidence for One Lone Nutter and no accomplices????

(Crickets Chirping)
Click to expand...

You still don't understand how investigations work do you? There is no "one single strongest piece of evidence". All of the evidence has to be looked at together to tell the whole story. That's why your theories utterly fall apart under close scrutiny. You take one piece of evidence that may seem suspicious. Then you take a second piece that also might seem suspicious but the problem is it doesn't work with the first piece. Instead of being honest and admitting you may have been mistaken you either point out the first piece of evidence again and this time ignore the second piece of evidence, or you simply ignore the existence of the first piece of evidence and hope everybody forgot you even brought it up.
 
Robert Prey said:
Now then, of all those items, which would be your one single strongest piece of evidence for One Lone Nutter and no accomplices????

(Crickets Chirping)
Click to expand...

Yes, you fail to understand a totality of evidence. We get it. You demand a single peice of evidence and talk about crickets chirping.

Allow me to sumarise the material evidence to support your claim:








































































(Did I miss anything?)
 
Tomtomkent said:
Which point in the linked article have you disproven?
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Robert didn't read the article. I was being polite by calling Crenshaw a fibber. He was actually a bald-faced liar. Crenshaw was also at Parkland when Oswald was brought in after being shot by Jack Ruby.

The most explosive claim made by Crenshaw [in his book] is that Lyndon Johnson called the ER during the attempt to save Oswald's life and demanded that a confession be extracted from Oswald.

Aside from being absurd on its face, Crenshaw has credibility problems on several fronts with this claim:

1. The White House phone logs do not show any call from LBJ to Parkland Hospital that day. See: Case Closed, paperback, p. 396.

2. Lyndon Johnson would not have been able to make a phone call at the time Crenshaw describes. The operation on Oswald began at 11:44 Central Time. At 11:55 Central Time, Manchester (The Death of a President) notes that the Kennedys and the Johnsons met in the East Room of the White House and then proceeded to the ceremonies moving Kennedy's body from the White House to the Capitol. But Crenshaw explicitly said the phone call came a little under an hour into the operation...

3. Crenshaw claims (p. 188) that he told [Dr. George T. Shires, Chief of Surgery at Parkland] about the call in the ER immediately after it was made. But neither Shires nor any of the other doctors there have ever mentioned such a statement...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/crenshaw.htm
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And earlier version of this lie was even wilder (both quotes from the above link).

Harrison Livingstone, for example, has claimed that the first version of Crenshaw's manuscript had Johnson calling and demanding, not that Oswald be gotten to confess, but that Oswald be killed.
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Gus Russo, author of Live By The Sword:

[Crenshaw] told me that Johnson had ordered the Parkland staff to "kill the son-of-a-bitch." It was decided to "drown Oswald in his own blood," i.e. transfuse him until his lungs collapsed.
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It is worth noting too that Crenshaw was a close friend of fellow Dallas resident and conspiracy huckster Robert Groden whose credibility was forever destroyed by testifying for the defence in the O.J. civil trial. ;)
 
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Strange Mr Prey refuses to concede how evidence works and demands a single piece of absolute evidence for LHO being the only provable shooter. Yet he has not supplied any evidence at all to support the claims he believes, other than the claims themselves.

His double standards have been obvious before, but how can he dismiss one narative on the grounds of no single golden arrow piece of evidence, but not dismiss the other based on the same standard?
 
Tomtomkent said:
Strange Mr Prey refuses to concede how evidence works and demands a single piece of absolute evidence for LHO being the only provable shooter. Yet he has not supplied any evidence at all to support the claims he believes, other than the claims themselves.

His double standards have been obvious before, but how can he dismiss one narative on the grounds of no single golden arrow piece of evidence, but not dismiss the other based on the same standard?
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Its funny that we see the Holocaust deniers use the exact same tactic. Since the vast preponderance of evidence is against them, they narrow the battle to one nitpick at a time in order to be able to evince some kind of victory.
 
LSSBB said:
Its funny that we see the Holocaust deniers use the exact same tactic. Since the vast preponderance of evidence is against them, they narrow the battle to one nitpick at a time in order to be able to evince some kind of victory.
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So those who don't believe the Warren Report fairy tale are the equivalent of Holocaust Deniers? Or just like Climate change deniers, or so says Al Gore. Doesn't this thread seem to attract some of the most profoundly Deep Thinkers.
 
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Walter Ego said:
Robert didn't read the article. I was being polite by calling Crenshaw a fibber. He was actually a bald-faced liar. Crenshaw was also at Parkland when Oswald was brought in after being shot by Jack Ruby.

Quote:
The most explosive claim made by Crenshaw [in his book] is that Lyndon Johnson called the ER during the attempt to save Oswald's life and demanded that a confession be extracted from Oswald.

Aside from being absurd on its face, Crenshaw has credibility problems on several fronts with this claim:

1. The White House phone logs do not show any call from LBJ to Parkland Hospital that day. See: Case Closed, paperback, p. 396.

2. Lyndon Johnson would not have been able to make a phone call at the time Crenshaw describes. The operation on Oswald began at 11:44 Central Time. At 11:55 Central Time, Manchester (The Death of a President) notes that the Kennedys and the Johnsons met in the East Room of the White House and then proceeded to the ceremonies moving Kennedy's body from the White House to the Capitol. But Crenshaw explicitly said the phone call came a little under an hour into the operation...

3. Crenshaw claims (p. 188) that he told [Dr. George T. Shires, Chief of Surgery at Parkland] about the call in the ER immediately after it was made. But neither Shires nor any of the other doctors there have ever mentioned such a statement...

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/crenshaw.htm
And earlier version of this lie was even wilder (both quotes from the above link).

Quote:
Harrison Livingstone, for example, has claimed that the first version of Crenshaw's manuscript had Johnson calling and demanding, not that Oswald be gotten to confess, but that Oswald be killed.
Gus Russo, author of Live By The Sword:
Click to expand...

Lone Nutters like Walter and McAdams have a great deal of trouble with first hand witnesses like Crenshaw, and try every Goebbles type trick in the book to discredit. The difficulty is, when when you try to get at any proof of such discrediting, it isn't there. Overlooking the inconsequential minutia in McAdams rant, the one item he centers on is what he claims to be a non-existent phone call form LBJ to the Trauma room which Crenshaw claims he took. But there is no evidence that Crenshaw made this up. And the story that LBJ told Crenshaw to "kill the sonofabitch" is 3rd hand hearsay, first from McAdams then from the mouth Gus Russo and then to others. Walter cites Russo's book which takes you to a tract that mentions nothing at all about anything concerning such a phone call. So what we have here is another typical tale of McAdams sourced to nothing which Walter repeats and sources to nothing.
 
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Tomtomkent said:
Yes, you fail to understand a totality of evidence. We get it. You demand a single peice of evidence and talk about crickets chirping.

Allow me to sumarise the material evidence to support your claim:




































(Did I miss anything?)
Click to expand...

Quite a lot. Here is just a small portion:

There are thirty well qualified witnesses to JFK's skull wound from Parkland to Bethesda. Their earliest, unrehearsed, specific descriptions, written, verbal or both, place a major skull defect unambiguously posteriorly.

l. KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland

2, ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD:

3, MARION THOMAS JENKINS, MD:

4. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO, MD

5. MALCOLM PERRY, MD:

6. RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician

7. GENE AIKIN, MD: an anesthesiologist at Parkland

8. PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician

9. CHARLES CRENSHAW, MD: a resident physician

10. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER, MD: a resident physician

11. ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD

12. RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident

13. ADOLPH GIESECKE, MD: an assistant professor of anesthesiology

14. FOUAD BASHOUR, MD: an associate professor of medicine

15. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, MD: was an intern

16 PAT HUTTON, RN: a nurse

17. SECRET SERVICE AGENT CLINT HILL

18. NURSE DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

Witnesses at Bethesda

1. GODFREY McHUGH: was President Kennedy's Air Force Aid,

2. JOHN STRINGER: was the autopsy photographer.

3. MORTICIAN TOM ROBINSON

4. ROBERT FREDERICK KARNEI, MD: Bethesda pathologist,

5. PAUL KELLY O'CONNOR

6. JAMES CURTIS JENKINS

7. RICHARD A. LIPSEY: an aide to General Wehle

8. EDWARD REED: one of two X-ray technicians

9. JERROL CUSTER: the other X-ray technician

10. JAN GAIL RUDNICKI: Dr. Boswell's lab assistant

11. JAMES E. METZLER: was a hospital corpsman

12. JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology
 
Referencing Walter's post:

Robert Prey said:
Lone Nutters like Walter and McAdams have a great deal of trouble with first hand witnesses like Crenshaw, and try every Goebbles type trick in the book to discredit. The difficulty is, when when you try to get at any proof of such discrediting, it isn't there. Overlooking the inconsequential minutia in McAdams rant, the one item he centers on is what he claims to be a non-existent phone call form LBJ to the Trauma room which Crenshaw claims he took. But there is no evidence that Crenshaw made this up. And the story that LBJ told Crenshaw to "kill the sonofabitch" is 3rd hand hearsay, first from McAdams then from the mouth Gus Russo and then to others. Walter cites Russo's book which takes you to a tract that mentions nothing at all about anything concerning such a phone call. So what we have here is another typical tale of McAdams sourced to nothing which Walter repeats and sources to nothing. But the fact is, we have the documented statements of the hospital operator who took the phone call, and relates taht it did indeed happen, and that it was indeed a man who ID's himself as the President, and she transferred the call to the operating room.
Ms. Bartlett wrote a letter to the Dallas Morning News on July 15, 1992 voicing her dismay at the treatment given Dr. Crenshaw in the article. She wrote:

July 15,1992
Letters from Readers
Dallas Morning News
Dallas, Texas

" People who have never been to Texas have been writing articles and books for years, (making lots of money) on what happened in Dallas and Parkland Hospital November 2, 1963. Now we have a man who writes the facts as he witnessed them, and some writers, who do not have enough initiative to do their research thoroughly, want to call it a pack of lies.

I refer to the review by Larry Sutherland, Dallas Morning News, June 28th, of Dr. Crenshaw's book, JFK: Conspiracy of Silence.

There are still people who have not come forward yet, that could have helped Mr. Sutherland get his facts straight had he bothered to check.

There very definitely was a phone call from a man with a loud voice, who identified himself as Lyndon Johnson, and he was connected to the operating. room phone during Oswald's surgery."

Phyllis Bartlett(s) Chief Telephone Operator at
Parkland Hospital, 1954- 1968
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* * *
 
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Robert Prey said:
Quite a lot. Here is just a small portion:

There are thirty well qualified witnesses to JFK's skull wound from Parkland to Bethesda. Their earliest, unrehearsed, specific descriptions, written, verbal or both, place a major skull defect unambiguously posteriorly.

l. KEMP CLARK, MD: Professor and Director of Neurological Surgery at Parkland

2, ROBERT McCLELLAND, MD:

3, MARION THOMAS JENKINS, MD:

4. CHARLES JAMES CARRICO, MD

5. MALCOLM PERRY, MD:

6. RONALD COY JONES: was a senior General Surgery resident physician

7. GENE AIKIN, MD: an anesthesiologist at Parkland

8. PAUL PETERS, MD: a resident physician

9. CHARLES CRENSHAW, MD: a resident physician

10. CHARLES RUFUS BAXTER, MD: a resident physician

11. ROBERT GROSSMAN, MD

12. RICHARD BROOKS DULANEY, MD: was a first year general surgery resident

13. ADOLPH GIESECKE, MD: an assistant professor of anesthesiology

14. FOUAD BASHOUR, MD: an associate professor of medicine

15. KENNETH EVERETT SALYER, MD: was an intern

16 PAT HUTTON, RN: a nurse

17. SECRET SERVICE AGENT CLINT HILL

18. NURSE DIANA HAMILTON BOWRON

Witnesses at Bethesda

1. GODFREY McHUGH: was President Kennedy's Air Force Aid,

2. JOHN STRINGER: was the autopsy photographer.

3. MORTICIAN TOM ROBINSON

4. ROBERT FREDERICK KARNEI, MD: Bethesda pathologist,

5. PAUL KELLY O'CONNOR

6. JAMES CURTIS JENKINS

7. RICHARD A. LIPSEY: an aide to General Wehle

8. EDWARD REED: one of two X-ray technicians

9. JERROL CUSTER: the other X-ray technician

10. JAN GAIL RUDNICKI: Dr. Boswell's lab assistant

11. JAMES E. METZLER: was a hospital corpsman

12. JOHN EBERSOLE, MD: was Assistant Chief of Radiology
Click to expand...

Those are witnesses. Where is the "quite a lot" of material evidence?
 
Robert do you understand what sceptics mean by "material evidence"?

That is not the first time you have suggested a list of claimants and/or witnesses as material evidence.
 
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