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Conservatives and climate change

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Why? Because as I noted, there is a moderated thread for that on JREF. Because those are the rules here.

You seemed quite content to argue the science until your realized you were out of your depth. Then suddenly you developed a need for strict adherence to forum guidelines. Funny, that...

Go right ahead, form a little cult and do your thing. Don't try to impose your ideas on others.

Seriously! Next thing you know he'll be demanding the government step in and squash any dissent. What kind of mouth-foaming ideologue would propose something so stupid and insane?
 
What does any supposed difference have to do with my point?

You have tried to imply that there is some sort of similarity between research grants and paying people to say something. I'm telling you once again this is false. End of story.

Of course is this isn't what you were trying to say, you can certainly go right ahead and say "research grants and not evidence against the validity of Mann's research". Will you say this? either a yes or a no will suffice.
 
Well, we are near the limit of food the earth can produce for us, and agricultural lands are losing fertility.

Anything that takes away arable land is going to starve people.

How many? Depends on how much those who have food are willing to deprive themselves so that others will not starve.

I would disagree that we are anywhere near the limits of food that can be produced, perhaps this is true using the levels of technology and energy affordable and commonly utilized around the planet today, but that, is only an issue if you are willing to let billions of people die because they can't afford to feed themselves under conditions created by allowing some few to earn profit from avoiding paying for the damages directly relatable to the activities they are engaging in to generate those profits.

Resolving the market failure provides us with a means to resolve the climate/food problem. The trillions we invest in ourselves, in removing our national fingerprints from this global tragedy are our best bargaining chips in helping to persuade others to join in a global solution.

I actually think that the carrot/stick combination of bond/tax might be a workable and self-sustaining process of reducing and eventually elimating carbon emissions and funding much of the process through a voluntary investment mechanism.

I guess we need to discuss the manner of determining appropriate taxes and we probably need to discuss whether this tax is intended to directly address the costs of dealing with damages and cleaning up the mess, or is about forcing as quick a transition away from fossil fuels with an eye towards minimizing overall economic disruption, or some measure of both the best approach? I lean toward the quick as possible shift away from fossil fuels, but its a public discussion that needs to occur.
 
You have tried to imply that there is some sort of similarity between research grants and paying people to say something. I'm telling you once again this is false. End of story.

Of course is this isn't what you were trying to say, you can certainly go right ahead and say "research grants and not evidence against the validity of Mann's research". Will you say this? either a yes or a no will suffice.

Didn't you know, the only scientists we can trust are those that work for free.

;)
 
What does any supposed difference have to do with my point? If RJ Reynolds pays me to say "2+2=4", does that mean NOT(2+2=4)? If the NSF supported a study that concludes that the world is facing another Ice Age (I'm sure Steven Schneider got grant money), does that mean that we should furiously burn coal? The argument stands or falls on its merits.

how come all those major scinetific research institutions are playing along? how comes not one scientist is blowing the whole hoax? are they all in just for the money?
 
"...In such instances we must find some substitute for the regulation by the price mechanism. But the fact that we have to resort to the substitution of direct regulation by authority where the conditions for the proper working of competition cannot be created does not prove that we should suppress competition where it can be made to function."

And I've proposed some things that were pure free market....I've suggested others, too, for those who adhere to "Green" ideas...that they should pursue free market solutions and get off the silly "Big Government will Save Us" train.

The above quote doesn't refute my point that even Hayek agreed that pollution needed to be regulated by the government. CO2 is effectively pollution.

And yes, I know what you've proposed, but yours have all been ideas on how to solve the energy problem, not how to prevent climate change by reducing CO2. "People who accept the science should invent a profitable form of renewable energy" is not a policy suggestion.
 
Why? Because as I noted, there is a moderated thread for that on JREF. Because those are the rules here.

The rules allow you to post as much discredited science as you like, as you've shown in this thread - nobody deleted your debunked civitas post, for example. It's moderated because the threads descended into personal abuse.
 
...It's actually very simple, conceptually.
There are three fundamental ways to alter the Earth's energy balance:
1. Change solar output
2. Change the average distance* between the Earth and Sun
3. Change the atmosphere
...
If you want to see how climate looks when no atmosphere exists to scatter incoming shortwave radiation and absorb outgoing longwave radiation, look at the moon. The greenhouse effect is very well established.
Are you saying that all gasses are greenhouse gasses? I'm not carping, here; I'm curious. If this is a matter of degree, or of wavelength and degree, on what characteristics of the gasses do differences in degree depend?
In the model you have constructed (I see no problems with it), you do not mention material characteristics of the body in orbit. Seems to me this indifference makes sense. Take a 100 cold bodies from interstellar space and install them in nearly circular orbits of different radii around a star with a given radiant output. They all dump heat to a heat sink (the universe) of the same temperature. Without any atmosphere, each will attain an equilibrium temperature that is a function of the radius of its orbit alone. Even albedo will have no role, aside from how quickly the body attains its equilibrium temperature, in the equilibrium temperature. Right?
 
Nobody should be able to understand it, it's incorrect and as a result doesn't make sense. It's symptomatic of the inconsistency inherent in the debate due to the incursion of politics in science.

You didn't understand it, yet you have a theory about it. I'm not surprised. It's like your take on the whole subject of global warming.

Have you something to contribute about this thread's subject? You don't need to understand to vote and participate in political processes. So, have you something to contribute about "conservatives and global warming"? I would like to know the take of would-be presidents and the differences between those closer to the tea party and those moderate ones that can still be considered conservatives.
 
Misplaced trust, and money.Someone evidently did, and leaked the emails.
There's no evidence that they were leaked. Your hero Steve McIntyre actually stated taht he didn't belive they were leaked following the the rather bizarre statementthat was released along with the latest tranche of e-mails.
 
What sort of a whistleblower hacks into a server to release the supposedly "leaked" documents? Most whistleblowers go to a goivernment agency, or the media, they don't try to hack a blog and upload them. That's the sort of theatrics you'd expect from Lulz Sec or Anonymous, not a whistleblower.
 
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Misplaced trust, and money.Someone evidently did, and leaked the emails.

do you also belief that Cancer is a hoax? there is alot more money spend on cancer research compared to AGW. are those scientists also faking their data just to make money?
 
Your political perspectives perceive it as a problem (for the time being), economics doesn't consider deficit spending in a recession to be a problem, in fact, economics recommends deficit spending as one of the primary solutions to recession. This is funded by the sale of bonds which are you seem to feel is a good financial tool, and is based on the confidence that the US economy will recover and prosper and future tax receipts will likewise swell and cover these bonds when they mature.

Regardless, at the current cumulative level, no, the annual budget deficit is not a major issue or problem, this isn't saying that annual budget deficits should continue indefinitely, nor that there are not points where such could become an issue of concern and potential problem. It is simply inaccurate, however, to insist that it is, today, a great and worrisome problem.

OH MY GOSH NO, the US Government creating money and handing it out in amounts equal to or in excess of total 1040 tax revenue isn't a problem. Or a great worrisome problem. Because...TRAKAR SAID SO!

$16T in debt is NO PROBLEM Trakar says.

The US economy will swell and cover those debts when it recovers.

Hmm.....

Does that bear any relation to reality? Let's see. With zero interest, and no increase in debt, we could DOUBLE taxes and pay off the 16T in about 16 years.

Well, that's not going to happen.

The CBO forecasts interest rates of 3-5% for the last half of this decade. At 4%, interest alone on the 16T is $640B per year, more than half 1040 revenues.

Looks to me like we need to borrow to pay interest, and cannot reduce the principal balance.

But Trakar says this is (A) No economics (B) No problem!

I'm so happy and content now.

:rolleyes:

The above quote doesn't refute my point that even Hayek agreed that pollution needed to be regulated by the government. CO2 is effectively pollution.

And yes, I know what you've proposed, but yours have all been ideas on how to solve the energy problem, not how to prevent climate change by reducing CO2. "People who accept the science should invent a profitable form of renewable energy" is not a policy suggestion.

Well, yes, it's a policy suggestion for YOU. Based on the paragraph that you quoted a part of Hayek's thought, and based on his thought.

So you think Hayek would have supported the concept that one country should tax energy in order to regulate emissions, knowing that the effect of this would be to cause industry to move to another country, with the same or higher emissions resulting?

That only increases taxes, without effecting the alleged goal of reduction of emissions, while harming the first country economically by removing industry and jobs, and benefiting the second country by giving it industries and jobs.

This is quite obvious, so there is no way that a reasonable person can argue that a brilliant man like Hayek would have argued for it.
 
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The debt is only a problem when those who helped run it up (Republicans) decide they don't want to pay for it.

Not that this is a surprise; Republicans are all about FREE STUFF;

- They want service of government without taxation - They will LIE to you and claim that they want small government, but just try to take away something they actually use and listen to the reality.

- They want to be able to extract minerals and lumber from public lands without just compensation.

- They want to be able to freely use externalities to pump up the profits of their business that at the same time are gorging on federal contracts and price supports.

- They want hospitals to have to provide free care for the indigent as a condition of doing business rather than honestly paying for the services with a national health plan.

- They want to be able to destroy tens of thousands of human lives in needless wars and then tell the ruined, crippled wounded who come home that they are a suck on the system.

Nice guys these Republicans. And they have the nerve to call others "looters".

ETA: I know a very few Republicans who do not fit the above, and I wonder what they are thinking staying with that Party?
 
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