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100 million deaths due to capitalism in the 20th century.

What makes you say this?

Hmmm let's see. Because we still would've had the costly war between Japan and Russia. We still would've had all the same civil revolts. We still would've had both world wars. We still would've had both Sino-Japanese Wars. China would've had a civil war regardless if the communists won or not. I'm pretty sure the death toll would've been the same regardless if the communist came into power or not. China and Russia have a long history of witnessing millions of deaths occur when new regime changes occur.

I don't know why you wish to speculate so much. Do you have any evidence Chiang would have implemented a plan similar to Mao's Great Leap Forward?

There's evidence that Chiang was not very fond of western ideals and wished for China to -at least some extent- return to its traditional conservatism. And we have already established that imperial regimes from both countries were very similar to their communist successors. So in other words, it would’ve simply been more of the same. Arguably Russia would've done the same if the White Army had won the Russian Civil war as well. I'm not seeing a whole world of difference as others would suggest. There is no evidence that supports whether or not Russia and China would’ve been better or worse off with or without communism, and consequently whether or not there would've been the same death toll with or without these regimes.
 
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Here is what I do if the world goes insane and bikerdruid's fantasies come true:

Lead a group of like minded people to sieze land and property needed. Declare ourselves a sovereign state. Allow anyone to come in. Continue to size land and property from the anarcommies as needed. Eventually come to dominate the world. Since the anarcommie morons abolished the state and thus have no leadership and no military they will be unable to stop me. The end.

Stateless societies still have militias (e.g. Orange Free State) and they are still quite capable of inflicting damage if they are properly armed with the modern technology of the time. I think you'd hit a little road block before your plan got started.
 
Hmmm let's see. Because we still would've had the costly war between Japan and Russia. We still would've had all the same civil revolts. We still would've had both world wars. We still would've had both Sino-Japanese Wars. China would've had a civil war regardless if the communists won or not. I'm pretty sure the death toll would've been the same regardless if the communist came into power or not. China and Russia have a long history of witnessing millions of deaths occur when new regime changes occur.

We are not talking about conflicts between states - we are talking about deaths attributed directly to the implementation of a certain type of government.

You said,

L.Y.S said:
But how are we sure the human death atrocities that took place in China and Russia are completely the fault of the communist and not the fault the Chinese or Russian psyche's

You're moving the goal posts by citing conflicts that spanned half a century. We know what killed upwards of 30 million people in China - The Great Leap Forward. No, I don't think 30 million people would have died if Chiang had come to power over Mao.

And we have already established that imperial regimes from both countries were very similar to their communist successors.

Only on paper. In practice, the Communist regimes of Russia and China were responsible for the deaths of many millions of people more than their Nationalistic forebears. The Great Leap Forward being of notable fame.

So in other words, it would’ve simply been more of the same.

Citation needed.
 
But how are we sure the human death atrocities that took place in China and Russia are completely the fault of the communist and not the fault the Chinese or Russian psyche's?
An example that I don't think you can blame on the "psyche" of the people is North Korea vs South Korea. For Russia and China even if communism wasn't exactly the cause it was supposed to be a remedy. Marx was a complete philosophical failure in his inability to predict what were persistent problems in countries that followed his ideas.

Another very important example is what happened in Cambodia with the Khmer Rouge. Highly educated Marxist/Maoists with phd's from French universities returned to Cambodia and implemented hell on earth sincere in the belief they were creating a communist utopia. It was not incidental to being communist, it was specifically the communist plan to shift the psyche of the country to what they thought would be ideal. On a smaller but even more sinister scale the California based Marxist cult that created the Jonestown commune ended when the entire population (900) committed suicide or was murdered.
 
Stateless societies still have militias (e.g. Orange Free State) and they are still quite capable of inflicting damage if they are properly armed with the modern technology of the time. I think you'd hit a little road block before your plan got started.

The Orange Free State wasn't a stateless society. You might have got it from the name, Orange Free State.

Anyway, the idea of a stateless, leaderless society having any sort of military is nonsensical. From whom would it take orders?
 
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...the state has long since past their 'best by date'.

there's no government, like no government!
workers of the world, UNITE! etc, etc, etc.
;)


Whenever I contemplate the viability of a “stateless society,” which I assume is a genteel euphemism for “anarchy,” I consider a community of angels. (Please bear with me here.) Not “real” angels of course, but rather otherwise regular human beings endowed with only the most altruistic and selfless motives. No one within this community ever has a bad thought or commits a violent action; everyone gladly shares whatever they have with everyone else. One would think that in such a society, government would be completely unnecessary.

Let’s further suppose that despite all this goodly living, some natural disaster strikes a distant corner of this idyllic community. Those in unaffected areas may be eager to rush in and help, but they need to be informed about what has happened, the quicker the better. Further, however well-intentioned these individuals may be, they may not possess the skills necessary to coordinate and administer relief efforts in the most effective manner. Thus, even among the angelic, there would be a requirement for at least two core, centralized community functions: (1) Disseminate essential information among the populace, and (2) Perform tasks that average citizens are not qualified to do. Both are absolutely critical; indeed a society based on altruistic tendencies would be remiss not to have both functions at the ready. Otherwise they are not as prepared as they could be to administer to those in need.

Now let’s turn things completely around and imagine a community of devils, composed of members driven solely by avarice and greed, with nary a thought for anyone but themselves. One might suppose that within this Hobbesian bellum omnium contra omnes nightmare, government would not be possible.

Not so fast. For example, however selfish you may be, you still might be smart enough to recognize that by cooperating with your fellow devils you may be able to accumulate personal wealth that would be otherwise impossible on your own. Thus a devil farmer may trade her surplus produce with a devil carpenter, or a group of devil miners may dig up gold inaccessible to any one individual. (Right about now some of you may be thinking that what I just described sounds suspiciously like capitalism, and exclaim, in either derision or alarm, “You’re saying free enterprise is the devil’s work!” Please don’t, because doing so misses my main point.) Further, a group of devils may realize they can fend off predation from stronger devils by banding together into a defensive force. Thus even among the pure evil, it’s easy to image two strong reasons for communal cooperation: (1) The enrichment of individual members, and (2) Security.

Unless your views tend towards either of the extreme ends of the optimist/pessimist continuum, you’ll probably agree that human nature consists of various combinations of angelic and devilish tendencies. Thus within virtually any society, the four centralized community needs cited above -- dissemination of information, performance of critical communal tasks, enrichment, and security -- would seem to be absolute requirements. Indeed, all four provide aspects of the same core function: the survival of the community and its members. Viewed this way, government isn’t just some acquired, artificial social construct; it serves our most basic evolutionary goal, the continuation of our species. And this, I think, is true for any non-isolated human community whose membership exceeds double digits, at least given the current state of human capabilities, limitations, and behaviors.

So no, I don’t have high hopes for “stateless societies” anytime soon. No matter which shoulder-perching little version of myself I listen to -- horned or haloed -- I’m told it’s a lousy idea.
 
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How many do you think the Communists killed?

Actually, that's probably the fairest idea yet: Instead of making all these wild claims, and imputing to BD all sorts of beliefs he may not even hold, we should probably just ask him what he thinks. And then we'll know:

bikderdruid, how many people do you think have been killed by Communists?
 
gee, is that a godwin?

No, it is not.


Godwin's Law is not invoked when Hitler and the Nazis are brought up in relation to topics where there is a clear connection
. Comparing deniers of one genocide with deniers of other genocides is not considered "Godwinning" a thread.

The law and its corollaries would not apply to discussions covering known mainstays of Nazi Germany such as genocide, eugenics or racial superiority, nor, more debatably, to a discussion of other totalitarian regimes or ideologies, since a Nazi comparison in those circumstances may be appropriate, in effect committing the fallacist's fallacy.​

As I pointed out above, communism cannot function unless it does so as a police state. This makes comparison between itself and other examples of police states appropriate.

i am not a holocaust denier.

Holodomor Denier then?

Great Leap Forward denier?

Killing Fields denier?

I said that your comments was spoken like a Holocaust denier.

Go into the thread in the CT section and count the number of times the usual gang of idiots proclaim it couldn't have happened because they don't want to believe it.
 
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It seems that the Marxist non/state utopia is likely to degrade into a brutal never ending military conflict between tribal warlords seeking to both maintain and increase their territories.

Something to look foward to.
 
We are not talking about conflicts between states - we are talking about deaths attributed directly to the implementation of a certain type of government.

If this is the case, if military deaths are not included in this total, then the number on this graph is grossly inaccurate and highly over estimated.
 
It seems that the Marxist non/state utopia is likely to degrade into a brutal never ending military conflict between tribal warlords seeking to both maintain and increase their territories.

Something to look foward to.

Doesn't seem much different from having a state or not having a state. It would seem that warfare is a human constant that will occur regardless of what happens.
 
Doesn't seem much different from having a state or not having a state. It would seem that warfare is a human constant that will occur regardless of what happens.

You don't have brutal warlord fighting with each other over territory/resources nowadays. At least not amongst civilized countries.
 

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