Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[MitNagel]

I posted more on this before I had received your reply: The problem with a moderated forum. I think you are right, which is why s/he does not seem to be forthcoming with these "sources", nor confident that there even IS any story to break. Bah, I have wasted my time there, again.

How about this? Judge Heavey puts pressure on Senator Cantwell. Cantwell contacts John Kerry.

Judge Heavey and John Kerry both served in Vietnam. Heavey was in the infantry but Kerry was commanding a Swift Boat. So what happened? Did Heavey witness Kerry committing atrocities from his Swift Boat while he himself was fighting on land? Or did Kerry run away from the enemy?

Kerry knows Heavey will spill the beans unless he moves on the Knox case.

So he contacts his ex brother in law, who speaks to the Italian government. 'Listen greaseball, Knox is going back to Seattle, ya hear'?

 

[smkovalinksy]

Concluding remarks on conspiracy/corruption theories

Hate to keep continuing on with pmf conspiracy theories, but I am curious.

I was just reading some old posts on American attorney Ted Simon, on TJMK, posted months before the Hellmann rulings. Within, TJMK assured all that Simon was after money, and would convince the Knox-Mellas families that it would be "an enormous victory to trim 10 years maximum from Knox's 26 year - life sentence".

Now, on PMF they hold Simon to be instrumental in having Knox acquitted altogether. Confusing, as their perspective seems to shift in order to accommodate all of their continually failing predictions....

In any case, they now believe if the Court of Cassation upholds Hellmann's rulings in Rome, it will be due to Ted Simon. I cannot imagine by what mechanism or authority this would be so. Furthermore: I am disappointed to know that their conspiracy theories will never give way to acceptance of innocence. Never.

In this ABC video, Ted Simon reacts to the live announcement of Hellmann's verdict. Simon seems surprised, but modestly joyful. He appears very self-effacing and authentic to me, not over-the-top in any sense:

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/amanda-knox-attorney-reacts-verdict-14660275

 

[Grinder]

I posted more on this before I had received your reply: The problem with a moderated forum. I think you are right, which is why s/he does not seem to be forthcoming with these "sources", nor confident that there even IS any story to break. Bah, I have wasted my time there, again.

Peggy Ganong (Skeptical) is a she.

The PGP people have claimed inside sources for years. They knew that the appeals court would do this and that, including affirming the conviction. They have all these sources yet they depend on Charlie Wilkes for evidence that the defense and all parties have access to.

Michael, the guy that started PMF and lost it to Peg in a yet to be explained coup d'état, also claimed "sources" and oft threatened to expose this or that because the PR supertanker was lying.

 

[codyjuneau]

______________

Cody,

An interesting theory but think it's inconsistent with the facts. Amanda said in her trial testimony that the drying rack was unfolded and in place on the afternoon of November 1st. On November 2nd, the drying rack ---as found by the cops ---still held clothing. See: HERE. It appears from the photograph that there's a grey article of clothing in the foreground and some dark article in the background. Maybe someone can locate a more detailed photograph.
///

Okay, scratch that conclusion. Thanks for the info Fine.

 

[smkovalinksy]

How about this? Judge Heavey puts pressure on Senator Cantwell. Cantwell contacts John Kerry.

Judge Heavey and John Kerry both served in Vietnam. Heavey was in the infantry but Kerry was commanding a Swift Boat. So what happened? Did Heavey witness Kerry committing atrocities from his Swift Boat while he himself was fighting on land? Or did Kerry run away from the enemy?

Kerry knows Heavey will spill the beans unless he moves on the Knox case.

So he contacts his ex brother in law, who speaks to the Italian government. 'Listen greaseball, Knox is going back to Seattle, ya hear'?

Why, I think you have solved the mystery....it really may be solved!

 

[smkovalinksy]

Using the standard six degress of separation, there is more than likely a more direct route from a US Senator from WA and Hellmann. My bet is that Anne Brmner knows Hellmann's mistress personally, and has the goods on Hellmann.

Then again, what this case has been reduced to is someone on PMF making a ridiculous comment (and strangely feels no shame making it) and someone here makes a counter-comment on how stupid it all is.

If that's what this has been reduced to, I really do feel for the Kerchers. I mean that. Neither Knox nor Raffaele had anything to do with the tragedy, people in the blogosphere are still yapping about it, and in 2012, the Kerchers have an empty place at the table.

That's about the sum of it.

Yes. And what is saddest of all, is that according to those on PMF, if the SC upholds Hellmann's rulings - as well they should - they will not view it as legitimate , but conversely will see Ted Simon as having manipulated a "rubber stamping of Hellmann in Rome".

What is truly tragic is, these same will then NOT ALLOW the Kerchers to find peace with the knowledge that their daughter's killer is in prison (albeit for too short a term) , but will rather encourage them to bring civil suits against Knox and Sollecito, which besides being unjust, will only protract the unresolved grief of the sorrowful family.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Peggy Ganong (Skeptical) is a she.

The PGP people have claimed inside sources for years. They knew that the appeals court would do this and that, including affirming the conviction. They have all these sources yet they depend on Charlie Wilkes for evidence that the defense and all parties have access to.

Michael, the guy that started PMF and lost it to Peg in a yet to be explained coup d'état, also claimed "sources" and oft threatened to expose this or that because the PR supertanker was lying.

Oh, yes, Peggy.....well, it is a shame that they give themselves over to such theories, and it sounds very fantasy-like. It is certainly unfair to the Kerchers, because as stated before, such flights of fancy only serve to protract their unresolved grief.

 

[Grinder]

If Hellmann ends up with the Heinz ketchup Italian franchise I'll believe the conspiracy theory.

Any speculation of the police working with Mignini to make sure of a conviction or that the police would lie about hitting Amanda etc. was met with derision from the PGP. In fact, they argued that this thread should be moved to conspiracy theories.

Now they claim that the State Department is involved in a conspiracy. Oh well.

 

[smkovalinksy]

If Hellmann ends up with the Heinz ketchup Italian franchise I'll believe the conspiracy theory.

Any speculation of the police working with Mignini to make sure of a conviction or that the police would lie about hitting Amanda etc. was met with derision from the PGP. In fact, they argued that this thread should be moved to conspiracy theories.

Now they claim that the State Department is involved in a conspiracy. Oh well.

Well, they are excellent at seeing a speck in the brother's eye, and ignoring the plank in their own. I am realizing now, though, that even if/when the Court of Cassation upholds Hellmann, for these, it will not be over. And that is disappointing and exhausting.

There is no resolution for them, as so we here continue on and on.....sometimes seems too drawn out and futile. Sigh.....

They over at pmf posted pics of Raffaele and his new girl today, with the usual comments, and now Sollecito has taken his Facebook page down, where I and many others enjoyed talking to him weekly.

 

[Didaktylos]

If Hellmann ends up with the Heinz ketchup Italian franchise I'll believe the conspiracy theory.

Any speculation of the police working with Mignini to make sure of a conviction or that the police would lie about hitting Amanda etc. was met with derision from the PGP. In fact, they argued that this thread should be moved to conspiracy theories.

Now they claim that the State Department is involved in a conspiracy. Oh well.

Actually - I wouldn't put it past the PGP people to claim that the wife of the CEO of the company that currently holds the franchise is Hellman's secret love-child ...

 

[bookworm]

Just an aside: I find this whole idea on pmf of contacting the media regarding a connection between Bremmer/Heavey/US Senator John Kerry in connection to the Hellmann rulings puzzling and semi-delusional. Especially since the poster with the "sources" seems to be going out of his way to make up excuses not to break the story. I cannot imagine such a story "breaking": But I will leave it for others to judge and ponder.

I personally would love to see this happen. Everything they're saying would be put out in the open and they would be forced to be accountable for the lies they're spreading. I don't see it, though. SB knows there is nothing there and will never give S what he's asking for.

 

[Kaosium]

More on the Movie:

Apparently someone named Chad A. Verdi is was interested in making a movie of the Amanda Knox case and offered a million dollars for the rights, only to withdraw it when he decided it wasn't a 'feel good' enough story. Frankly I think it unlikely that Verdi ever had a chance of getting the rights, though he might have wanted the publicity for 'withdrawing' an offer that never had an opportunity for fruition. There is still one environment in which there is no such thing as negative publicity: Hollywood.

Considering the recent interest in her book rights, and of course the recent revelation that Ron Howard's production company may be interested, and the previous interest shown by Michael Winterbottom, not to mention John Grisham's presence at the original trial having figured it out and still interested in telling the story, it ought to of been self-apparent that Chad A. Verdi's contention ought to have been looked at skeptically to begin with.

However it did cause me to wonder about something, according to the story the offer was withdrawn because:

"After reviewing all the information we had involving the Knox case, I have decided it was not the inspirational feel good story that VP was looking for and we have withdrawn our offer."

Now that could mean other things, as a rape-murder and wrongful incarceration doesn't inherently inspire 'feel good' emotions in most, but it could also have meant that he decided there was 'information' that suggested the appeal verdict wasn't an exoneration, and thus left troubling 'questions.' After all, they must have known about the rape-murder part going in, but basically the only places 'information' like the other is available are the curiously twinned PMF and their 'showboard' TJMK. It caused me to wonder if this was a real story and not more likely a 'press release' for publicity purposes, if it was true Verdi demurred because he read something entirely untrue or viciously distorted on PMF/TJMK that could suggest real damages done to Amanda Knox that go beyond the hate-mail and death threats she's received, as alluded to in the Daily Mail piece.

Hate mail and death threats cannot really be traced to a website or forum unless they're really stupid about it, and of course it probably couldn't be proven any arose because of said venues. However unique information can be traced, and being as there's basically only one group of people pushing their distorted view of the case, and it would be unlikely another outlet could produce the conditions that would allow for such distortions to match at this juncture, I wonder if someone were to inquire whether 'damages' could be proven if it turned out Chad Verdi's 'information' was similar to the dreck that PMF and TJMK imagine on a daily basis? If not this one, perhaps if something similar were to happen in the future?

I'm leery of libel laws in general, and a big proponent of freedom of expression, especially in the ether, but then again I've not see anything quite like this phenomena before, where dozens of people gather on a daily basis to denigrate a person and invent scenarios and conditions where she (and Raffaele) might still be guilty when the law, science, rationality and common sense now all agree she was wrongfully convicted in the typically oft-overturned or modified Trial of the First Instance. If a site promoting false information were to cost someone a business opportunity, wouldn't that site be liable for something?

 

[Bill Williams]

What is truly tragic is, these same will then NOT ALLOW the Kerchers to find peace with the knowledge that their daughter's killer is in prison (albeit for too short a term) , but will rather encourage them to bring civil suits against Knox and Sollecito, which besides being unjust, will only protract the unresolved grief of the sorrowful family.

People who wish to protract the Kercher's misery should all take a pill and read the Book of Job, yes the one in the Bible. Sorry to get all religious on people, but throughout Job's real-live miseries, he is "comforted" by three guys claiming to be firends.

The moral of of the story is to beware of your friends - Job's friends did NOT bring comfort, they only protracted the injustice that Job suffered from.

With the page turned on Knox and Sollecito with Hellmann's brilliant simplicity on describing reality, I now feel for the Kerchers - and hope they find better friends than they've had for the last four years.

They, right now, are the only one who deserve some good news in their lives with what they have lost. Hell, I can even find a place to say to John Kercher, "Mate, let it go......"

 

[smkovalinksy]

Apparently someone named Chad A. Verdi is was interested in making a movie of the Amanda Knox case and offered a million dollars for the rights, only to withdraw it when he decided it wasn't a 'feel good' enough story. Frankly I think it unlikely that Verdi ever had a chance of getting the rights, though he might have wanted the publicity for 'withdrawing' an offer that never had an opportunity for fruition. There is still one environment in which there is no such thing as negative publicity: Hollywood.

Considering the recent interest in her book rights, and of course the recent revelation that Ron Howard's production company may be interested, and the previous interest shown by Michael Winterbottom, not to mention John Grisham's presence at the original trial having figured it out and still interested in telling the story, it ought to of been self-apparent that Chad A. Verdi's contention ought to have been looked at skeptically to begin with.

However it did cause me to wonder about something, according to the story the offer was withdrawn because:



Now that could mean other things, as a rape-murder and wrongful incarceration doesn't inherently inspire 'feel good' emotions in most, but it could also have meant that he decided there was 'information' that suggested the appeal verdict wasn't an exoneration, and thus left troubling 'questions.' After all, they must have known about the rape-murder part going in, but basically the only places 'information' like the other is available are the curiously twinned PMF and their 'showboard' TJMK. It caused me to wonder if this was a real story and not more likely a 'press release' for publicity purposes, if it was true Verdi demurred because he read something entirely untrue or viciously distorted on PMF/TJMK that could suggest real damages done to Amanda Knox that go beyond the hate-mail and death threats she's received, as alluded to in the Daily Mail piece.

Hate mail and death threats cannot really be traced to a website or forum unless they're really stupid about it, and of course it probably couldn't be proven any arose because of said venues. However unique information can be traced, and being as there's basically only one group of people pushing their distorted view of the case, and it would be unlikely another outlet could produce the conditions that would allow for such distortions to match at this juncture, I wonder if someone were to inquire whether 'damages' could be proven if it turned out Chad Verdi's 'information' was similar to the dreck that PMF and TJMK imagine on a daily basis? If not this one, perhaps if something similar were to happen in the future?

I'm leery of libel laws in general, and a big proponent of freedom of expression, especially in the ether, but then again I've not see anything quite like this phenomena before, where dozens of people gather on a daily basis to denigrate a person and invent scenarios and conditions where she (and Raffaele) might still be guilty when the law, science, rationality and common sense now all agree she was wrongfully convicted in the typically oft-overturned or modified Trial of the First Instance. If a site promoting false information were to cost someone a business opportunity, wouldn't that site be liable for something?

Agreed on all.

As for your last sentence: Yes, it should.

And I would not put it past at least one of them to have contacted Verdi themselves with the scoop that, "This ain't really over" - seeing as when I contacted Sharon Feinstein - openly and with absolutely NO ulterior motive - and had a polite and friendly exchange with her, which I was grateful for, and which I openly copy/pasted here on a public forum ----- STILL one of them emailed her privately warning of my "level of deception and ulterior motives". If they took the trouble to do this concerning me, how much more likely RE Knox herself?

This whole phenomenon is actually frightening in its scope and lurid and sickening in its details; prior to the era of internet forums this sort of group could not have come into existence in the manner it has, and wind up wielding the power that it does. Which is why cyber-defamation is a new breed of legal problem demanding solutions which are really adjusted to it, and which really work.

 

[LondonJohn]

Peggy Ganong (Skeptical) is a she.

The PGP people have claimed inside sources for years. They knew that the appeals court would do this and that, including affirming the conviction. They have all these sources yet they depend on Charlie Wilkes for evidence that the defense and all parties have access to.

Michael, the guy that started PMF and lost it to Peg in a yet to be explained coup d'état, also claimed "sources" and oft threatened to expose this or that because the PR supertanker was lying.

Yep: "The Machine" (*stifles laughter*) claimed multiple times between around April and September last year that he had a reliable inside source who had informed him with certainty that the guilty verdicts would be upheld but the sentences reduced.

I might have a go at this lark myself. How about this:

I have it on good authority from multiple off-the-record sources that President Obama telephoned then-Italian-PM Berlusconi in November 2010. In that conversation, Obama told Berlusconi that the US Government would agitate for his removal and for the removal of US bank debt investment in Italian govt bonds, unless Berlusconi himself authorised the payment of millions of Euros in Italian slush fund reserves to Hellmann and Zanetti in order to guarantee the acquittal of Knox. Obama's motivation for doing so was that he wanted to be seen co-presenting an Academy Award with Knox at the 2012 Oscars ceremony, and to use her release as a part of his 2012 reelection campaign.

Simples!!

 

[LondonJohn]

By the way, I will now nail my colours to the mast and make a prediction about appeals to the Supreme Court. These appeals have to be submitted by the end of January (45 days after the release of the Hellmann Report). I predict - without total confidence, for sure - that neither prosecutors nor defence lawyers will lodge appeals.

I think that from the prosecution side, there are two reasons: 1) there's no apparent procedural issue with Hellmann's court that will gain them traction with the Supreme Court; 2) I suspect that senior prosecuting authorities may already be embarrassed about the way this case has gone, and do not wish to expose themselves to any further embarrassment. From the defence side, while I think Knox has potentially valid grounds for appeal on the Lumumba slander charge, I have a feeling that she will want simply to put the whole affair behind her. After all, a successful Supreme Court appeal would mean a retrial at appeal court level on this charge, and that would very probably require a return by Knox to Perugia. I think therefore that Knox will let that charge lie, and will sacrifice the indignity of a criminal conviction in Italy in favour of getting on with her life.

 

[smkovalinksy]

By the way, I will now nail my colours to the mast and make a prediction about appeals to the Supreme Court. These appeals have to be submitted by the end of January (45 days after the release of the Hellmann Report). I predict - without total confidence, for sure - that neither prosecutors nor defence lawyers will lodge appeals.

I think that from the prosecution side, there are two reasons: 1) there's no apparent procedural issue with Hellmann's court that will gain them traction with the Supreme Court; 2) I suspect that senior prosecuting authorities may already be embarrassed about the way this case has gone, and do not wish to expose themselves to any further embarrassment. From the defence side, while I think Knox has potentially valid grounds for appeal on the Lumumba slander charge, I have a feeling that she will want simply to put the whole affair behind her. After all, a successful Supreme Court appeal would mean a retrial at appeal court level on this charge, and that would very probably require a return by Knox to Perugia. I think therefore that Knox will let that charge lie, and will sacrifice the indignity of a criminal conviction in Italy in favour of getting on with her life.

You know, you may be onto something there. I myself had wondered if it were not time for the case to simply be lost, as it were, in the whirligig of time. But what about Mignini's fierce determination, with set jaw and flashing eyes, as he vowed that "we shall see which trial is upheld, the first or the second.".....

 

[Kaosium]

By the way, I will now nail my colours to the mast and make a prediction about appeals to the Supreme Court. These appeals have to be submitted by the end of January (45 days after the release of the Hellmann Report). I predict - without total confidence, for sure - that neither prosecutors nor defence lawyers will lodge appeals.

I think that from the prosecution side, there are two reasons: 1) there's no apparent procedural issue with Hellmann's court that will gain them traction with the Supreme Court; 2) I suspect that senior prosecuting authorities may already be embarrassed about the way this case has gone, and do not wish to expose themselves to any further embarrassment. From the defence side, while I think Knox has potentially valid grounds for appeal on the Lumumba slander charge, I have a feeling that she will want simply to put the whole affair behind her. After all, a successful Supreme Court appeal would mean a retrial at appeal court level on this charge, and that would very probably require a return by Knox to Perugia. I think therefore that Knox will let that charge lie, and will sacrifice the indignity of a criminal conviction in Italy in favour of getting on with her life.

Although you may end up being correct, I personally hope she doesn't take the calunnia charge lying down, and does indeed appeal. If she's a felon in Italy that will forever taint her and may impair her opportunities. She speaks German, French and Italian and was reportedly learning Russian. She may very well want her clean record if she ever goes to, or wants to work in Europe, which is what someone with her skills might well want to do.

 

[Grinder]

Yep: "The Machine" (*stifles laughter*) claimed multiple times between around April and September last year that he had a reliable inside source who had informed him with certainty that the guilty verdicts would be upheld but the sentences reduced.

I might have a go at this lark myself. How about this:

I have it on good authority from multiple off-the-record sources that President Obama telephoned then-Italian-PM Berlusconi in November 2010. In that conversation, Obama told Berlusconi that the US Government would agitate for his removal and for the removal of US bank debt investment in Italian govt bonds, unless Berlusconi himself authorised the payment of millions of Euros in Italian slush fund reserves to Hellmann and Zanetti in order to guarantee the acquittal of Knox. Obama's motivation for doing so was that he wanted to be seen co-presenting an Academy Award with Knox at the 2012 Oscars ceremony, and to use her release as a part of his 2012 reelection campaign.

Simples!!

Sorry but that's far too much detailed information. Furthermore one doesn't call them off-the-record sources only sources. It's not that they can't be revealed, it's that you, as grand pooh-bah, will not reveal them. You also must mention that they have been right in the past and be careful not to give specifics.

Here is a good example of what you must aspire to: This is not the kind of information I would share before the fact, however. In light of what various sources told me at various times, I was not surprised by the acquittal.
- from SB

Note that no information is communicated and that she is an insider of the highest level although because she didn't share we didn't know that she knew that Hellmann knew that he was going to acquit even before Hellmann knew because her sources were better than his sources.

You need to buckle down and get it right.

 

[codyjuneau]

People who wish to protract the Kercher's misery should all take a pill and read the Book of Job, yes the one in the Bible. Sorry to get all religious on people, but throughout Job's real-live miseries, he is "comforted" by three guys claiming to be firends.

The moral of of the story is to beware of your friends - Job's friends did NOT bring comfort, they only protracted the injustice that Job suffered from.

With the page turned on Knox and Sollecito with Hellmann's brilliant simplicity on describing reality, I now feel for the Kerchers - and hope they find better friends than they've had for the last four years.

They, right now, are the only one who deserve some good news in their lives with what they have lost. Hell, I can even find a place to say to John Kercher, "Mate, let it go......"

Yes, choose your friends wisely. I have often thought the Kerchers would receive a lot more true compassion and empathy at the IIP site than they will ever receive at the lynch mob sites.

Until Italy assigns a dispassionate investigation team to review this case without the blinkers that blinded Mignini and the Migninions the Kerchers will always be left wondering what really happened. And that will make it very difficult for them to let it go.