Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

[Kaosium]

One more (I think it hasn't been mentioned) false pieces of evidence:

I read a comment where the PGP said that an earring had been torn from Amanda's ear - this was the epiphany a PGP had by looking at pictures of Amanda during a trial.

There is another of the Examiner type stories out and one of the comments demonstrates the ongoing spreading of misinformation.

Why does that fail to surprise me? Perhaps I can offer some assistance in helping refute this nonsense:

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474980921945

Here's just one item of a "casual" follower of the case:

12) Amanda has a neck wound and her first earring hole on one ear was torn. Amanda claimed that the neck wound was a hickey but looking at pictures of her neck make that unlikely. The earring was explained as a piercing that got infected. That also seems unlikely.

Here's one item from a professional follower of the case:

Amanda was not wounded; in the days following no one spoke of wounds that she might have had; the examination which was carried out on her when measures restricting her personal freedom were taken ruled out the presence of wounds.

Lest it be misunderstood what they meant by an 'examination carried out when measures restricting her personal freedom were taken' it quite likely means when they arrested her they stripped her naked, put her up against the wall, and went over every last square inch of her body looking for wounds. After all, if she was involved in a death struggle involving a knife in close quarters there ought to have been some evidence on her body. Scratches, bruises, minor knife wounds--something.

Which also means they saw the hickey and realized it wasn't a wound that could have bled.

 

[Kaosium]

A correction: although (as with all sections) I did do some minor editing, the credit for the section on Quintavalle should go primarily to Newcomer (from IIP).

But in any case I'm sure I speak for the entire translation team when I say that the positive feedback is greatly appreciated.

Then allow me to offer some! Your work and that of the whole team is greatly appreciated. I have little doubt that the finished product will be done quicker and with greater accuracy than it took those elsewhere to do the Massei Report; much as was the case with the Conti-Vecchiotti Report which was wonderful work by yourself and Katy-Did.

 

[Bill Williams]

Lest it be misunderstood what they meant by an 'examination carried out when measures restricting her personal freedom were taken' it quite likely means when they arrested her they stripped her naked, put her up against the wall, and went over every last square inch of her body looking for wounds. After all, if she was involved in a death struggle involving a knife in close quarters there ought to have been some evidence on her body. Scratches, bruises, minor knife wounds--something.

Which also means they saw the hickey and realized it wasn't a wound that could have bled.

And if they had found something, it would have been put forward at trial would it not?

I remember one of the "many unanswered questions" which some PGP still claim suggests guilt even with debunked DNA.

One of them was a so-called unanswered question aimed at Knox herself, "Did you seek medical treatment for your neck wound?" This is part of the project of reversing the burden of proof, if not a project of utter inaneness.

The fact that Knox's very person/body was under scrutiny and authority police from Nov 6, 2007, onwards puts the lie to any claim of her supposed wounds. How many more of these issues need debunking before even the most hardcore PGP says, "I admit it, I was wrong"?

 

[Grinder]

Two men were today convicted in The Old Bailey of the murder of black teenager Stephen Lawrence some 19 years ago. They were convicted largely because advances in DNA typing technology over the past decade mean that new DNA evidence tying these men to the murder could now be presented in their prosecution.

I'll type this really slowly so they can understand. DNA can and does last for long long periods of time if it is "stored" in a way that doesn't destroy it. Animal parts in nature can retain DNA for thousands of years. Stefanoni stored DNA in such a way to destroy it in mere months.

I don't intend to waste hours on this, but it appears that the DNA found was not 6 cells and on an article of clothing belonging to one of the murderers.

 

[MitNagel]

One of them was a so-called unanswered question aimed at Knox herself, "Did you seek medical treatment for your neck wound?" This is part of the project of reversing the burden of proof, if not a project of utter inaneness.

The so-called 'questions' are not questions. They are misrepresentations or downright lies childishly disguised as 'questions'.

 

[LondonJohn]

A point of clarification about the 10.13pm activity on Meredith's UK phone:

First, this wasn't just a simple ping (i.e. brief identifier burst signal to check that the handset is still in connection to the network, and which base station it's connected to). It was data message transmission from the network to the handset. The data transmission was interrupted very shortly after starting. This tends to strongly suggest that what happened was that someone sent a MMS (multimedia message) to Meredith, and the message alert arrived at 10.13pm. The handset would have emitted an audible and visual alert of an incoming MMS, and the message itself would simultaneously have started to download. However, MMS at that time could be costly to the recipient, so the networks always put in the option to abort the download (and thus save money). The method of abort for nearly all handsets was the simple press of the "terminate call" button.

Secondly, the base station with which the UK hadnset was communicating at the time of the incoming MMS reception was sited to give optimum coverage on the route between the cottage and the spot where the handsets were eventually dumped in Sig.ra Lana's garden. Although the cottage technically lay just within the coverage zone for this base station, there were other base stations which provided far stronger coverage to the cottage, and indeed IIRC Meredith's UK phone (which used Wind as an Italian roaming network) had never before connected to that particular base station whilst at the cottage.

Therefore, the most logical conclusion to draw is as follows: at 10.13pm, the handset was not within the cottage, but was some distance away en route to Sig.ra Lana's garden. It was of course in the possession of the fleeing killer - Rudy Guede - who almost certainly took the quiet semi-lit road round the outside of the old city wall to minimise the chances of being seen by (or interacting) with others on his way home. At 10.13pm, Meredith's UK handset lit up and made an alert tone, as the MMS started to download. The killer then pressed the "terminate call" button to silence the phone, and this also had the effect of aborting the MMS download. It's likely that this episode was the final straw for the killer, who did not want to risk drawing attention to himself by a ringing/beeping/flashing phone. Therefore, shortly after the 10.13pm episode, it's likely that the killer - Guede - made the decision to dispose of the phones by throwing them into what he thought was a wild ravine (but which happened to be the well-kept garden of Sig.ra Lana).

As a small addendum, the hoax bomb-threat call to Sig.ra Lana that night was almost certainly a sheer coincidence. But whether it was or not, it should be abundantly clear that it would not have been in the killer's interests to draw police attention to the area where he had discarded the phones.

 

[Grinder]

As most now know there is next to nothing left to connect either of the kids to the murder much less the murder room.

The PGP still believe in the footprints but there are so many problems to connect the prints to the time of the crime and to the kids.

Just like the bath mat print the "luminol prints" don't match anybody (Rose contends that at least one has a second toe that is too long to be Amanda's) and Stefanoni had to admit that they tested negative for blood. The PGP say that TMB isn't a better test for blood than luminol and that the crack police scientific could tell that the prints were blood by how they lit up. The problem is that if the prints didn't react with TMB then the blood had to be very diluted and in that case would have lit up like blood with luminol.

Now that almost all physical circumstantial evidence has been thrown out the PGP are arguing TOD, which they found as a now issue just weeks ago.

The most amazing signs of clinical denial (was there such a thing before this case?) in the PGP is the fact that they are still trying to hold onto all the "trainee" witnesses.

I don't like the way the kids handled the alibi or other post murder activities. They may not be proof of guilt but if I was a PGP I'd focus on anything but something that depended on the "trainee" witnesses.

 

[Kevin_Lowe]

Just like the bath mat print the "luminol prints" don't match anybody (Rose contends that at least one has a second toe that is too long to be Amanda's) and Stefanoni had to admit that they tested negative for blood. The PGP say that TMB isn't a better test for blood than luminol and that the crack police scientific could tell that the prints were blood by how they lit up. The problem is that if the prints didn't react with TMB then the blood had to be very diluted and in that case would have lit up like blood with luminol.

If they were slightly more rigorous thinkers, they would realise that IF the prints really did light up very brightly, AND there was not enough blood there to react with the more sensitive TMB test, then it follows inescapably that the footprints were made with something other than blood that reacts vigorously with luminol.

Something reacted vigorously with the luminol (or so the police say), and while we have no idea exactly what that something was, the TMB test rules out the possibility that it was a high concentration of blood. If blood was there at all it was present in such low concentrations that the TMB test didn't detect it. So something other than blood had to be the substance that reacted vigorously with the luminol.

We'll never know what that substance was, because it was a long time ago and we don't have the information required to solve that mystery, but we do know it can't have been blood.

What they're doing in this case is gripping very tightly to the conclusion the police claimed to have reached (it's blood!) while quietly sweeping under the rug the reasoning the police used to get to that conclusion. Possibly this is because it's a treasured piece of guilter mythology that nothing other than blood that could possibly have been in the murder house could possibly have reacted with luminol, and despite the fact that this piece of mythology can't possibly be reconciled with the luminol and TMB test results they won't let it go.

Another possibility of course is that the police just lied, and given the behaviour of the police throughout this case I personally think that this is just as likely or more so. However a lot of guilter dominos all fall over at once if the guilters allow that the police might have been lying from the early days of the investigation, and I don't think they're willing to sacrifice that many of their beloved nuggets of "wisdom" at once.

 

[codyjuneau]

Hi Grinder and everyone else,
I'd like to throw in an opinion, if I may.
Since Rudy did go out dancing just hours after Meredith Kercher's brutal murder, I just can't seem to picture him doing so with cuts on a hand that had bled. I've read that Rudy was a good dancer, wouldn't he have been worried about a cut reopening while on the dance floor, hands raised in the air as he grooved to whatever the DJ was playin?
RW

Hi RW

Super glue!

 

[MitNagel]

What they're doing in this case is gripping very tightly to the conclusion the police claimed to have reached (it's blood!) while quietly sweeping under the rug the reasoning the police used to get to that conclusion. Possibly this is because it's a treasured piece of guilter mythology that nothing other than blood that could possibly have been in the murder house could possibly have reacted with luminol, and despite the fact that this piece of mythology can't possibly be reconciled with the luminol and TMB test results they won't let it go.

But you never hear them mention the luminol prints which showed up at Raffaele's place.

 

[LondonJohn]

I'll type this really slowly so they can understand. DNA can and does last for long long periods of time if it is "stored" in a way that doesn't destroy it. Animal parts in nature can retain DNA for thousands of years. Stefanoni stored DNA in such a way to destroy it in mere months.

I don't intend to waste hours on this, but it appears that the DNA found was not 6 cells and on an article of clothing belonging to one of the murderers.

Yes. And in the Lawrence case, the clothing appeared to have been collected from the suspects in a timely and proper manner, it was seemingly stored in proper sterile conditions for all these years (thus preserving the validity of any evidence on the clothing), and the DNA testing some 19 years later was apparently conducted in a careful, scientific manner that scrupulously observed the vitally-important protocols and processes necessary for low template DNA typing.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

no confirmation of blood

As most now know there is next to nothing left to connect either of the kids to the murder much less the murder room.

The PGP still believe in the footprints but there are so many problems to connect the prints to the time of the crime and to the kids.

Just like the bath mat print the "luminol prints" don't match anybody (Rose contends that at least one has a second toe that is too long to be Amanda's) and Stefanoni had to admit that they tested negative for blood. The PGP say that TMB isn't a better test for blood than luminol and that the crack police scientific could tell that the prints were blood by how they lit up. The problem is that if the prints didn't react with TMB then the blood had to be very diluted and in that case would have lit up like blood with luminol.

Now that almost all physical circumstantial evidence has been thrown out the PGP are arguing TOD, which they found as a now issue just weeks ago.

The most amazing signs of clinical denial (was there such a thing before this case?) in the PGP is the fact that they are still trying to hold onto all the "trainee" witnesses.

I don't like the way the kids handled the alibi or other post murder activities. They may not be proof of guilt but if I was a PGP I'd focus on anything but something that depended on the "trainee" witnesses.

Grinder,

Rose posted the image of the footprint in question (which I believe came from Amanda's room) at Websleuths (and possibly here as well); I was very surprised that the second toe did not match Amanda's at all. If not Amanda's print then whose print was it, and when and how was it made? The photos at Websleuths made me think that the luminol might have been poured, not sprayed, on the at least some of the prints. And it lit up some spots on a technician's boot and on a ruler, opening up the question of what substances on those object was luminol-reactive.

Ms. Comodi tried to do an end-around the problem that either there were no confirmatory blood tests done, or there were and they were negative. Her lines about turnip juice were clever but vacuous. Without such a test there is no reason to conclude that the prints were blood, even if the TMB had been positive.

 

[LondonJohn]

Grinder,

Rose posted the image of the footprint in question (which I believe came from Amanda's room) at Websleuths (and possibly here as well); I was very surprised that the second toe did not match Amanda's at all. If not Amanda's print then whose print was it, and when and how was it made? The photos at Websleuths made me think that the luminol might have been poured, not sprayed, on the at least some of the prints. And it lit up some spots on a technician's boot and on a ruler, opening up the question of what substances on those object was luminol-reactive.
Ms. Comodi tried to do an end-around the problem that either there were no confirmatory blood tests done, or there were and they were negative. Her lines about turnip juice were clever but vacuous. Without such a test there is no reason to conclude that the prints were blood, even if the TMB had been positive.

Re the highlighted part: I think it's unlikely that even the Keystone Cops in this case literally poured Luminol solution onto the floor. But I do, however, think it's highly possible that they sprayed so much Luminol onto certain areas that they effectively ended up creating pools of the solution. Of course, the proper procedure is to apply a light mist of Luminol to the area being tested, in order to preserve the shape and integrity of any evidence to be exposed.

And regarding the strange sensitivity of the Luminol photos produced in this case, I strongly suspect that the exposures on these photos was pushed - either deliberately or through incompetence - and had the effect of maximising artifacts and the tiniest of reactions. We already know that the "official" exposure settings for many of the photos was 2-3 times higher than the recommended exposures, and there also may have been digital balance/contrast alteration applied (just like, for example, it's possible to do with photos of the walls of the cottage at nighttime )

 

[daydreamer]

I was wondering if there is any activity in Perugia to challenge the investigators and police on their conduct during the Kercher murder investigation and trials. Is there any disciplinary actions or possibly legal activity going on.
If not, who has the responsibility and legal power to initiate this action?
Do we have to wait until the case passes through the Supreme Court?
Maybe this is a question for Frank.

 

[MitNagel]

We already know that the "official" exposure settings for many of the photos was 2-3 times higher than the recommended exposures, and there also may have been digital balance/contrast alteration applied (just like, for example, it's possible to do with photos of the walls of the cottage at nighttime )

I seem to remember some photographs of the cottage which appeared to show levels of darkness probably not seen in Perugia since mediaeval times.

 

[Katody Matrass]

Komponisto posted new part of the translation
http://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/reasons-for-the-decision/conclusion/

Enthralling read, beautiful thinking!

Atta boy and high five to the team of translators and to the judges who wrote it

 

[Grinder]

Here is a comment made at PMF

"The mixed DNA samples of Knox and her victim outside the locked door, in areas revealed by Luminol, comprise the 800 pound gorilla and the defence certainly knew that. It's relevant, too, that Knox manufactured the bathmat dance weeks after her arrest and after she knew that the investigators were going to return to the cottage to test with Luminol. The bathmat hop is absent from her alibi email and only appears as an embellishment in her interview with the PM on 17-DEC-2007."

This raises many questions. First of all, if she knew or even suspected that her footprints were on the floor outside Meredith's room why didn't she clean it up during the "big clean"? Why if she remembered she had forgotten to clean the floor why didn't she remember in time to include in the "alibi" email?

Why would she wait until the day before the Luminol tests to add to her story by providing the detail of using the bathmat?

The Missouri State Police guide states "6. An immediate blue-green color change indicates a positive result. No color change indicates a negative result. A negative result indicates that either no blood is present or is below the limit of detection of the test." Actually this from the US Feds but Missouri adds so much credibility.

From http://www.wavesignal.com/Forensics/Blood.html :

The Luminol test is extremely sensitive, and is capable of detecting bloodstains dilutes up to 300,000 times. For this reason, spraying large areas such as carpets, walls, flooring, or the interior of a vehicle may reveal blood traces or patterns that would have gone unnoticed under normal lighting conditions. In addition, it will not interfere with any subsequent DNA testing that may be carried out in a forensic laboratory.

and more from the same source:

More recently, Cox (5, 6) focused on the four presumptive tests for blood, using phenolphtalein (PhTh), tetramethylbenzidine (TMB), leucomalachite green (LMG), and orthotolidine (OTL). His findings indicate that the TMB and OTL are the most sensitive of the group, and also the most likely to produce interference color reactions with plant peroxidases. The LMG test is the least sensitive of the four examined. The PhTh and LMG are the most specific of the four examined.

The literature indicates that Luminol is very good at finding blood and allowing further tests including DNA. Also, if the blood is present in a large enough quantity to be positively identified by the brightness of the Luminol then other presumptive tests like TMB should be positive.

Further, we know that Stefanoni would "spin the dials" on the PCR machine to find DNA when she felt it would be "helpful" so how come she couldn't find it in the footprints?

 

[Grinder]

I've already stated that parts of Hellmann's report do not agree with my point of view. I believe others here have also questioned aspects of the report, but I don't recall any significant problems the PGP had with Massei.

I just reread Massei's take on Rudy's criminal history. Unlike all the possibles turning into probables when it came to the kids guilt, in case of Rudy's clear breaking and entry history is minimized in every way.

Specifically, concerning Tramontano, Massei is concerned that Cristian wasn't positive enough in his IDing of Rudy.
Massei writes:These episodes, concerning the Milan nursery school, the burglary in the law office in Perugia and the burglary of Tramontano's house (although for the last one, the identification of Rudy was expressed only by the phrase "I believe I recognise him") reveal obvious and notable differences

(Compare the above to Massei's acceptance of Curatolo, Nara and Quintavalle. I believe Tramontano came forward on his own and wasn't a "trainee witness".)

It is notable how hard Massei worked to discount Rudy's obvious criminal history. Massei makes a big deal out of the fact that he knew the girls and therefore it was a completely different situation and also makes big deal that Tramontano's break-in wasn't done with a rock.

Massei does a twister in stating that Rudy wouldn't ever have staged the break-in using the MO Massei does everything to deny in other sections of his rationalization report as not being his MO.

Whereas Massei has no problem having the kids do a 180 from their life's history but doesn't count a break-in because it wasn't done with a rock. Rereading Massei can be very entertaining.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I've already stated that parts of Hellmann's report do not agree with my point of view. I believe others here have also questioned aspects of the report, but I don't recall any significant problems the PGP had with Massei.

I just reread Massei's take on Rudy's criminal history. Unlike all the possibles turning into probables when it came to the kids guilt, in case of Rudy's clear breaking and entry history is minimized in every way.
Specifically, concerning Tramontano, Massei is concerned that Cristian wasn't positive enough in his IDing of Rudy.
Massei writes:These episodes, concerning the Milan nursery school, the burglary in the law office in Perugia and the burglary of Tramontano's house (although for the last one, the identification of Rudy was expressed only by the phrase "I believe I recognise him") reveal obvious and notable differences

(Compare the above to Massei's acceptance of Curatolo, Nara and Quintavalle. I believe Tramontano came forward on his own and wasn't a "trainee witness".)

It is notable how hard Massei worked to discount Rudy's obvious criminal history. Massei makes a big deal out of the fact that he knew the girls and therefore it was a completely different situation and also makes big deal that Tramontano's break-in wasn't done with a rock.

Massei does a twister in stating that Rudy wouldn't ever have staged the break-in using the MO Massei does everything to deny in other sections of his rationalization report as not being his MO.

Whereas Massei has no problem having the kids do a 180 from their life's history but doesn't count a break-in because it wasn't done with a rock. Rereading Massei can be very entertaining.

Yes, it can be, indeed. And often is. I was always vexed by Massei and the PGs minimizing or virtually sweeping away Guede's antecedents as a known criminal.

Even now, some on PMF are wondering if "Rudy will come clean and tell the truth [about Knox and Sollecito drawing him into this "prank" gone awry.]" It is as if the idea of Guede's silence stemming from his role as lone wolf has not occurred to them. Hellmann believes it to be a probable explanation for the entire set of evidence. He does indeed see Guede's history of knife-wielding break and entries as significant. One must have an agenda to wave it away.

If one compares this excerpt from Hellmann below, to a post of today from PMF, once can see the gaping contradiction the latter engage in, between knowing on the one hand of Guede's criminal history, while on the other believing it to be drawn on from memory as part of covering up for Knox and Sollecito: It boggles the mind:

From Hellmann:

The personality of Rudy Guede, as it emerges from witness statements, does not reveal any particular respect for other people. Not only had he — as recalled above — acquired experience as the perpetrator of burglaries in others’ apartments, sometimes even committed with the robbery victims present in the house (see Tramontano); not only had he not hesitated to use a knife to threaten the victim that had chased him (Tramontano again, but also in the Milan nursery he had taken possession of a 40-cm-long knife), but several times on the street, especially when he was drunk, he had importuned young women, attempting to hug and kiss them, and even the very fact (only seemingly banal; in reality very indicative of his ways) that he was in the habit of using the bathroom in other people’s houses (as a guest or as an intruder, it matters not here) to defecate or urinate without flushing afterward.
http://blog.seattlepi.com/dempsey/2012/01/

From PMF:

I notice that Rudy claiming to defend himself with a chair against a knife wielding attacker in the cottage is an echo of Tramontano's description of Rudy's alleged burglary of his flat, when Rudy (allegedly) kept Tramontano at bay with a chair and jackknife before making his getaway with money and credit cards. One wonders whether there was ever any record of the thief trying to use those cards? A case of Rudy drawing on past experience?

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=428&start=5000

 

[smkovalinksy]

So I am assuming that all parties must file to Rome by Feb. 15. Then, from what I have gathered, it is a year's wait, and the submission of other documents and materials, after which time the SC makes the initial ruling. With luck, they will uphold Hellmann. Without it, a protracted battle will ensue. Wish there was not the year's wait (until recently, I did not know that there was). Makes all seem set back to awaiting the appeal trial verdicts, as though nothing has changed in the interrum....