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JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

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Walter Ego said:
Bell Helicopter? Do you realize that Micheal Paine, husband of Ruth Paine, worked as an engineer at Bell Helicopter in Fort Worth, Texas in 1963? Marina Oswald and the Oswald children were living with Ruth Paine in November of '63 and the assassination rifle was stored in Ruth Paine's garage.

Connect the dots, people! :eek:
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Michael Paine, like LHO, was a patsy. He was selected because his employment at Bell could divert attention away from the man behind the assassination, Aristotle Onassis, who was running HughesCorp. :gasp:
 
Robert Prey said:
You keep referring to Oswald as the shooter. The fatal shot to the Presidint's head was probably a hollow point or frangible bullet but it wasn't fired by Oswald since it came from the vicinity of the Grassy Knoll.
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That's a lie, Robert. No where in the post you replied to did I refer to Oswald as the shooter. The first reference to Oswald is a quote I took from Michael Griffith, whom you had quoted (and from the same article) in an earlier post. My two references to Oswald are responses to that point, and likewise are references to Oswald's ammo, not to Oswald as the shooter. Nowhere in the below do I mention who the shooter was, or where the shooters were.

This is just another in a long-line of dodge-ball posts by you, where you avoid entirely responding to the point of the post and reply with something entirely off-topic. Deal with the topic at hand - what do the tests on the skull establish?

I mean, you did check this all out yourself, right, and not rely on conspiracy books to tell you the truth, I trust. So why then did you dismiss the testing performed below? You must have a reason (other than "I just didn't like the results", I mean).


HSienzant said:
Oh, by the way, Michael Griffith also writes this in the article you quote from:
http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/forensic.htm

"When Failure Analysis Inc. conducted ballistics tests on the behavior of FMJ missiles through human skulls, not one of the test bullets broke up into fragments. The bullets used by Failure Analysis were FMJ missiles coated with nickel-chrome, whereas the ones allegedly used by Oswald were copper-jacketed . When they were fired into human skulls, not one of the Failure Analysis missiles broke up into fragments, much less into numerous tiny fragments."

You realize that the Failure Analysis tests aren't meaningful because FA used nickel-chrome jacketed bullets, whereas Oswald used copper jacketed bullets, right?

Now, why would Griffith cite a non-meaningful test as if it were meaningful? Maybe because he doesn't want too cite the meaningful test conducted in 1964 for the Warren Commission using copper jacketed bullets of the same make and manufacturer as Oswald's?

Here's the citation to the results of that test again:

http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0305a.htm
http://historymatters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0305b.htm

Griffith goes on to quote from Livingstone's interview of Detective Roach:

"The head wound [JFK's head wound as seen in the x-rays] has all the hallmarks of 5.56 mm bullet performance. I would expect that if JFK were struck in the head from above and behind by a 6.5 Carcano bullet, the bullet would have crashed into the skull, out the other side, intact, and continued on till it hit something else. (In Livingstone, Killing the Truth, p. 59)"

But that was explained in the Warren Commission Report as well. As noted therein, "Prior to the tests, Dr. Olivier had some doubt that such a stable bullet would cause a massive head wound like that inflicted on the President. He had thought it more likely that such a striking bullet would make small entrance and exit holes. The tests, however, showed that the bones of the skull were sufficient to deform the end of the bullet causing it to expend a great deal of energy and thereby blow out the side of the skull."

Now, why would Livingstone and Griffith not mention the Warren Commission test results using copper jacket ammo just like Oswald's, and then cite non-meaningful tests using different ammo, and instead cite the opinion of three men who had conducted no tests (Drs. Green and Berg, and Detective Roach), none of who had conducted any tests on human skulls to determine what would actually happen?

My theory is that they were trying to conceal the truth from you, as they knew they were making claims that would not withstand serious scrutiny.

But you won't fall for that, because you have enough common sense to check this stuff out for yourself, right?

And just to clarify - there is only one issue addressed here - whether a frangible or copper-jacketed bullet caused the head wound.
Hank
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HSienzant said:
That's a lie, Robert. No where in the post you replied to did I refer to Oswald as the shooter. The first reference to Oswald is a quote I took from Michael Griffith, whom you had quoted (and from the same article) in an earlier post. My two references to Oswald are responses to that point, and likewise are references to Oswald's ammo, not to Oswald as the shooter. Nowhere in the below do I mention who the shooter was, or where the shooters were.

This is just another in a long-line of dodge-ball posts by you, where you avoid entirely responding to the point of the post and reply with something entirely off-topic. Deal with the topic at hand - what do the tests on the skull establish?

I mean, you did check this all out yourself, right, and not rely on conspiracy books to tell you the truth, I trust. So why then did you dismiss the testing performed below? You must have a reason (other than "I just didn't like the results", I mean).
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And so, your point is???
 
Robert Prey said:
And so, your point is???
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Summed up nicely in the post actually.

Here are the highlights. First his point was you lied:
That's a lie, Robert. No where in the post you replied to did I refer to Oswald as the shooter.
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Then his point was that you did not actually respond to any of his previous points and were dodging them in favour of a non-sequitor:
This is just another in a long-line of dodge-ball posts by you, where you avoid entirely responding to the point of the post and reply with something entirely off-topic. Deal with the topic at hand - what do the tests on the skull establish?
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One would assume even you are able to discern that his point(s) were that you had lied, and were avoiding the key question as to what the tests on the skull established (and how this conflicted with your insistance that the cherry picked and unsupported Parkland claims are more valid than the narrative you deny, despite the material evidence debunking them).

Now I have a question:

Why do you use three question marks, if you expect your point of view to be taken in any way seriously?
 
Robert, your lack on ballistic knowledge (which I tried to help you with) is showing.

The bullets in LHO guns are NOT FMJ's, they are copper jacketed and there IS a difference. Copper Jacketed bullets have an EXPOSED lead core, the "bottom" of the bullet, the side that faces the powder charge is open. See an image of the so called "magic bullet" here. That is

This is the end of the bullet recovered from the gurney at Parkland, you know, that place with all the perfect, infallible witnesses.

Please note the exposed lead that is a different texture and color from the thin copper jacket that surrounds it. Also, notice how flattened this supposedly "pristine bullet" is? I know, this is NOT the bullet that hit JFK's head but it is the same ammo as LHO had in his rifle. It is not uncommon for military ammo to have jacketed bullets instead of FMJ bullets BTW.

The exposed lead can scatter through a wound channel if it is subjected to serious impact and striking a human skull is serious impact.

If you had read Di Maio's book, you'd know this stuff, but all you are is a professional guesser.

(Off topic but worth mentioning, if you are ever subjected to serious trauma such as a GSW or a traffic accident in North Texas, Parkland is where you want to be flown to, it is a world class trauma center.)
 
GregHouseMD said:
Robert, your lack on ballistic knowledge (which I tried to help you with) is showing.

The bullets in LHO guns are NOT FMJ's, they are copper jacketed and there IS a difference. Copper Jacketed bullets have an EXPOSED lead core, the "bottom" of the bullet, the side that faces the powder charge is open. See an image of the so called "magic bullet" here. That is

This is the end of the bullet recovered from the gurney at Parkland, you know, that place with all the perfect, infallible witnesses.

Please note the exposed lead that is a different texture and color from the thin copper jacket that surrounds it. Also, notice how flattened this supposedly "pristine bullet" is? I know, this is NOT the bullet that hit JFK's head but it is the same ammo as LHO had in his rifle. It is not uncommon for military ammo to have jacketed bullets instead of FMJ bullets BTW.

The exposed lead can scatter through a wound channel if it is subjected to serious impact and striking a human skull is serious impact.

If you had read Di Maio's book, you'd know this stuff, but all you are is a professional guesser.

(Off topic but worth mentioning, if you are ever subjected to serious trauma such as a GSW or a traffic accident in North Texas, Parkland is where you want to be flown to, it is a world class trauma center.)
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I just don't get what all that even if true has anything to do with the fatal shot from the grassy knoll.
 
Robert Prey said:
I just don't get what all that even if true has anything to do with the fatal shot from the grassy knoll.
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I am not surprised.

TAke it nice and slow Robert. You say the fatal shot could only have been a frangible bullet that exploded in JFKs head, because fragments of the bullet are not consistent with an FMJ round.

It has just been shown to you that the round used was not an FMJ.

That means there is no reason to suspect a frangible bullet.
That means there is no evidence to support your claim.
That means your "analysis" of the Z film is bunk.

Now, have you got any material evidence yet, or just more bunk?
 
GregHouseMD said:
Robert, your lack on ballistic knowledge (which I tried to help you with) is showing.

The bullets in LHO guns are NOT FMJ's, they are copper jacketed and there IS a difference. Copper Jacketed bullets have an EXPOSED lead core, the "bottom" of the bullet, the side that faces the powder charge is open. See an image of the so called "magic bullet" here.
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So you are now saying that the Warren Commission was incorrect in stating that the cartridge was a full metal-jacketed military type of bullet????
 
No, actually I think Greg is suggesting the WC was correct to claim a 6.5mm round nosed copper jacketed 160gr round was used.

Please supply a citation to prove the WC stated an FMJ round.

Here is the unfired bullet:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ce141.jpg

Oh look, it's a 6.5mm round nosed copper jacketed 160gr round and not an FMJ...
 
Tomtomkent said:
No, actually I think Greg is suggesting the WC was correct to claim a 6.5mm round nosed copper jacketed 160gr round was used.

Please supply a citation to prove the WC stated an FMJ round.
..
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"The cartridge was a 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. at East Alton, IL. This type of cartridge is loaded with a full metal-jacketed, military type of bullet..." -- Page 555, Warren Report.
 
Robert Prey said:
"The cartridge was a 6.5 millimeter Mannlicher-Carcano cartridge manufactured by the Western Cartridge Co. at East Alton, IL. This type of cartridge is loaded with a full metal-jacketed, military type of bullet..." -- Page 555, Warren Report.
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Interesting.


Did you read pages 556 and 557?

As it is rather odd. You suggest that JFK was shot from the front. Yet the bullets that caused his wounds were fired from LHOs rifle, and his rifle alone. And that despite your claims it is impossible for FMJ bullets to break apart, that is exactly what they did under tests.

Are you going to supply evidence to counter the material evidence? Or have you just condemned yourself by refering to the WC?
 
And just to be clear. It doesn't matter if the Warren Commission were mistaken, lying or just plain wrong about the type of bullet used, all the time the FBI retains the unused bullet found in the chamber of the rifle. You know, the Material Evidence and all... Oh and the photographs of the bullet, the fragments of the fired bullets, and the data gathered from the testing.

I can see no material evidence supporting a frangible bullet from the grassy gnoll. Or any bullets other than the three fired by LHO.
 
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Walter Ego said:
The doofus with the broomstick shot JFK from the Grassy Knoll. This picture proves it.
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Robert, is this true? Did you track down badge man? Was the badge pinned on the same pleather jacket he still wears to this day? Did you manage to capture his picture on casual Friday?
 
Tomtomkent said:
Interesting.


Did you read pages 556 and 557?

As it is rather odd. You suggest that JFK was shot from the front. Yet the bullets that caused his wounds were fired from LHOs rifle, and his rifle alone. And that despite your claims it is impossible for FMJ bullets to break apart, that is exactly what they did under tests.

Are you going to supply evidence to counter the material evidence? Or have you just condemned yourself by refering to the WC?
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FORENSIC SCIENCE AND PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S HEAD WOUNDS

Michael T. Griffith
2002

"As stated earlier, I asked several medical examiners about the likelihood that an FMJ bullet would leave dozens of fragments inside a skull. The two medical examiners who replied, Dr. Jimmy W. Green and Dr. Eric Berg, both indicated they felt this was unlikely. Dr. Green said that "almost all FMJ bullets fired from rifles of medium to high velocity do not fragment with numerous pieces. . . ." Dr. Berg was even more skeptical that an FMJ bullet would leave numerous fragments in a skull, and he quoted from Dr. Vincent DiMaio's book Gunshot Wounds. That quote is worth repeating, and note that Dr. DiMaio says that even in cases where an FMJ bullet perforates bone only rarely will the missile leave fragments, and that even then the fragments will be "few":

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a "lead snowstorm". . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug." (Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added)

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/forensic.htm
 
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Robert Prey said:
FORENSIC SCIENCE AND PRESIDENT KENNEDY'S HEAD WOUNDS

Michael T. Griffith
2002

"As stated earlier, I asked several medical examiners about the likelihood that an FMJ bullet would leave dozens of fragments inside a skull. The two medical examiners who replied, Dr. Jimmy W. Green and Dr. Eric Berg, both indicated they felt this was unlikely. Dr. Green said that "almost all FMJ bullets fired from rifles of medium to high velocity do not fragment with numerous pieces. . . ." Dr. Berg was even more skeptical that an FMJ bullet would leave numerous fragments in a skull, and he quoted from Dr. Vincent DiMaio's book Gunshot Wounds. That quote is worth repeating, and note that Dr. DiMaio says that even in cases where an FMJ bullet perforates bone only rarely will the missile leave fragments, and that even then the fragments will be "few":

In x-rays of through-and-through gunshot wounds, the presence of small fragments of metal along the wound track virtually rules out full metal-jacketed ammunition.. . . In rare instances, involving full metal-jacketed centerfire rifle bullets, a few small, dust-like fragments of lead may be seen on x-ray if the bullet perforates bone. One of the most characteristic x-rays and one that will indicate the type of weapon and ammunition used is that seen from centerfire rifles firing hunting ammunition. In such a case, one will see a "lead snowstorm". . . . Such a picture rules out full metal-jacketed rifle ammunition or a shotgun slug." (Gunshot Wounds, CRC Press, Boca Raton, 1999, p. 318, emphasis added)

http://www.mtgriffith.com/web_documents/forensic.htm
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1. Michael T Griffith is not impartial, he is a CT and his evidence is not conclusive.

2. He sent out requests to many forensics experts and few replied.
Dr. Di Maio did not reply, his book was quoted and then out of context. I say out of context because Di Maio's comments refer to an FMJ and the bullets are clearly not FMJ's.

3. He has not supplied anything new with this post, it is a partial repeat of an earlier post.

Robert did a word search for Di Maio's name and found someone who quoted him and is trying to use faulty logic to claim he has proof.

His post above reminds me of a convicted rapist whose attorney was seeking his release on parole. The Attorney claimed his client was reformed, he had not raped a woman in over 16 years. Of course the rapist had been an inmate in a men's prison for that entire period of time.
 
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