And the boats keep coming

I'm surprised you would be directing me to the right. Seems at odds with most of your ideology, wouldn't you want them more to the left? :)

No, because how many families of apostrophes can be sent to their deaths before we realise the right at the end of the tunnel?
 
No, because how many families of apostrophes can be sent to their deaths before we realise the right at the end of the tunnel?

The alternative is that they pay boatmen 10,000 dollars to travel RIGHT across the ocean to Grammalia, otherwise be LEFT in Pendantica.
 
And if Gillard had just accepted Abbott's proposed ........ blah blah.

Same argument goes both ways.

No. It doesn't. Based on what the Malaysian solution was proposing it sounded like it would do better in stopping the boats than returning to the Pacific solution.

Why is it Gillard will bend over for the Greens and others yet not compromise with the coalition?

You would have to show that she has indeed done that and that no negotiation took place between the parties.

So what has changed if she still wants Malaysia? Where is the compromise?

I'd probably know if I was say, a Labor insider, but I'm not.

What is Gillard proposing and - as I have only recently heard but can't confirm - for Malaysia to be viable in the High Court, Malaysia too must change some policy. Why and if they would do so remains to be seen.

So you're making a claim based on unsubstantiated evidence. Considering your track record that doesn't surprise me at all.
 
No. It doesn't. Based on what the Malaysian solution was proposing it sounded like it would do better in stopping the boats than returning to the Pacific solution.

Based on what?
Have you some evidence please?
What happens once the 800 was used up?

You would have to show that she has indeed done that and that no negotiation took place between the parties.

Which parties? The morons Greens? The coalition? Both?

I think we can safely assume the former given the wedding ceremony between Gillard and Brown (does anyone else find that ironic? An unmarried woman and a gay man?) sprigs of wattle included. The marriage consummated by way of the carbon tax.

I think we can also safely acknowledge that Gillard and the Labor decided not to negotiate with the coalition when they pigheadedly stuck with Malaysia - do you not remember the caucus meetings in September? Here's a reminder or two. http://www.smh.com.au/national/malaysia-asylum-seeker-policy-resurrected-20110910-1k30q.html http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...o-budge-on-nauru/story-fn59niix-1226134614843

I'd probably know if I was say, a Labor insider, but I'm not.

Why make this statement then? :boggled:
"But as far as I'm aware Labor wants this change so they can implement their Malaysian Solution which collapsed because of the HCA decision that the changes to the legislation are supposed to deal with."

Or is it you engaging in evidence free claims? At least I acknowledge mine up front.
 
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Based on what?
Have you some evidence please?
What happens once the 800 was used up?

[Alfie mode]
All these questions are side issues so I don't have to answer them.
[/Alfie mode]

Which parties? The morons Greens? The coalition? Both?

Labor, Greens.

I think we can also safely acknowledge that Gillard and the Labor decided not to negotiate with the coalition when they pigheadedly stuck with Malaysia - do you not remember the caucus meetings in September? Here's a reminder or two. http://www.smh.com.au/national/malaysia-asylum-seeker-policy-resurrected-20110910-1k30q.html http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...o-budge-on-nauru/story-fn59niix-1226134614843

So Labor's position is pretty much the statement that you found boggling?

Or are you decrying Labor's supposed "pigheadedness" while praising the Liberals who are doing the same thing?

Why make this statement then? :boggled:
"But as far as I'm aware Labor wants this change so they can implement their Malaysian Solution which collapsed because of the HCA decision that the changes to the legislation are supposed to deal with."

Or is it you engaging in evidence free claims? At least I acknowledge mine up front.

Well I would post some evidence but you've done that for me with the articles you linked to above. Or perhaps you didn't actually read the articles you linked to.

But at least you've decided to come clean and admit that your arguments don't have any evidence behind them.
 
[Alfie mode]
All these questions are side issues so I don't have to answer them.
[/Alfie mode]

Like I said before, if I had made a claim somewhere please ask me to back it up and I will do my best.
You are asking questions on things I have made no claims on. For me they are a stroll down irrelevant land - you can go there by all means but I feel neither obliged nor compelled.

You on the other hand are now making claims and refusing to support them.

Well I would post some evidence but you've done that for me with the articles you linked to above. Or perhaps you didn't actually read the articles you linked to.

Again, it is you making claims and not supporting them, not I.
 
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http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/politics/how-the-left-got-it-wrong-20111221-1p5jd.html

How the left got it wrong

A fantastic article by Robert Manne (who I rarely agree with) on the current situation. While he has a crack at both sides he is now honest enough too to see where the left has failed badly in all this.

Once excerpt - but I recommend the entire article on which I agree with everything but a few minor points:

For its part, the left has been unwilling to concede that the Pacific Solution succeeded in deterring the boats. Between 1999 and late 2001, 12,176 asylum seekers arrived by boat. In the years of the Pacific Solution - 2002 to 2008 - 449 arrived. Since its abandonment, 14,008 asylum seekers have reached Australian shores.

The left's unwillingness to acknowledge the obvious has been of great political significance. Following Kevin Rudd's election in 2007 a wise asylum seeker policy would have involved leaving the Pacific Solution intact but humanising policy by increasing the annual quota of refugees and ending mandatory detention. The internment camps on Nauru were virtually empty. The undeniable cruelty of the policy had reached its natural end.

No one on the left with an interest in asylum seeker policy - and I include myself - was far-sighted or independent or courageous enough to offer the incoming Rudd government such advice.[/I]

I would ask everyone to have a look at this and see if you too can look within as Manne has done.

Sadly, I doubt some of you have that capacity.
 
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Like I said before, if I had made a claim somewhere please ask me to back it up and I will do my best.

Well considering that I have already and you didn't bother (it's in post 13, you can't miss it) I get the feeling that you won't.

You are asking questions on things I have made no claims on. For me they are a stroll down irrelevant land - you can go there by all means but I feel neither obliged nor compelled.

I'm sorry but when you bitch about asylum seekers being "queue jumpers" it is a relevant question to ask how you would like to see these claims processed.

You on the other hand are now making claims and refusing to support them.

Yeah, it's annoying when people do that isn't it?

Again, it is you making claims and not supporting them, not I.

The projection is strong in this one. But it also says that you didn't actually read the articles that you linked to.
 
Guy Rundle has a thought provoking piece on Manne's position in today's Crikey:

The problem that Keane and Manne have to deal with is this. Our commitment to refugees is an argument based on human rights, and on a categorical imperative. The Convention we are signed up to makes a promise to any potential refugee that if they reach our shores, they have the right to make a claim for asylum. Recent laws we have put in place may interfere with that treaty/promise, but that doesn’t mean we haven’t made it.

The extreme form of such a morality would suggest that we make no consideration of the situation of refugees before they make landfall, at which point we would accord them full rights. But such abstract positions become immoral in themselves if they become an excuse for allowing great wrong to occur.

So both Manne and Keane put the emphasis on a utilitarian argument — the need to dissuade people from lethal voyages outweighs honouring the rights of others to claim asylum. They are appealing implicitly to the process by which general rights are curtailed for specific good — a compulsory seat-belt law would be one mundane example.

Yet such an example gives the reasons why overseas mandatory detention can’t be advanced in that way. We make such trade-offs in situations like the seat-belt one, of clear knowledge and limited impact on rights.

The boat-borne refugee situation is the reverse — we are being asked to wholly negate someone’s rights (that we have explicitly promised them), in a situation where their life and freedom will be wholly annihilated indefinitely, all as a strategy for dissuading unknown future persons from making a possibly perilous journey.

By that definition we are using the “deterrent” — the people locked up for years on Manus, Nauru, in Malaysia, or god knows where — as a means to a utilitarian end. It is a clear use of human beings in their totality, as means to other ends, and cannot in any sense ground a moral policy.

Such a negation of the humanity of the present refugee in favour of the welfare of a possible future one thus makes the ultility calculus impossible. The old challenge to utilitarianism was the question as to whether one can torture a small number of people to make a larger number happy.

Since we know that prolonged mandatory detention has many of the effects of torture, on adults and children alike, the solution that Rob Manne proposes — overseas detention in Australian de facto dependencies for “lengthy” periods that would deter others — would seem to elevate that philosophical conundrum to the policy level.

http://www.crikey.com.au/2011/12/22/rundle-refugee-debate-dominated-by-compromise-not-core-promises/
 
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Well considering that I have already and you didn't bother (it's in post 13, you can't miss it) I get the feeling that you won't.

Which claim of mine haven't I explained or supported exactly?

Guy Rundle has a thought provoking piece on Manne's position in today's Crikey:

I'll tell you what, you don't post any Crikey and I wont post any Andrew Bolt. ;)
 
I'll tell you what, you don't post any Crikey and I wont post any Andrew Bolt. ;)

I'll tell you what, the next time you find Andrew Bolt musing about folly of taking a utilitarian approach to human rights and instead applying the fundamentals of Kantian deontological ethics to the issue, or any other argument of similar intellectual calibre, then you can quote him all you like. And I promise I will take the argument for what it is and won't lower myself to your standard by trying to make baseless attacks on the veracity of the source while completely ignoring the substance of the quote. Deal?
 
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Which claim of mine haven't I explained or supported exactly?

Let's just start with two:

1) That court decisions (note the plural there) have had no bearing on the Pacific Solution
2) That our neighbours have not changed their opinion on aspects of the PS (specifically sending the boats back to Indonesia).
 
Let's just start with two:

1) That court decisions (note the plural there) have had no bearing on the Pacific Solution
2) That our neighbours have not changed their opinion on aspects of the PS (specifically sending the boats back to Indonesia).

Did I make these claims? I don't actually remember doing so. Please show me the evidence I did.

That aside:
1. You are free to read the court decisions on Malaysia where (I think from memory) four of the judges specifically mentioned that Malaysia was not Nauru.

But this is a moot point should the parties get together and legislate.

2. "Where possible" are the key words for sending boats back. I'm pretty sure that the threat is sufficient as an additional deterrent on top of the others.

The policies of our neighbours had no ongoing effect on Nauru previously from what I can tell, and should have no impact on any solution in the future.
 
It's about time that Abbott and Gillard both showed some compromise. Reading the papers in the last couple of days has only reinforced my perception that most politicians are nothing more than sponges with their noses well and truly in the troth. If any evidence is required, witness their whole hearted acceptance of their pay rises no matter who they are in a second. In my opinion, both leaders are not fit to lead this great country. But, Labor if not very quickly discarded will bankrupt us. The only thing that may rescue us is the royalties from the mining industry. But will even this be enough to save us. Billions have and will be wasted on such pie in the sky things as the NBN, Pink batts, cash handouts which only benefited the Chinese manufactures. The retail industry is moribund, as is all other industry besides mining. There is very little confidence out there, and this government is not about to change their policies to help in any way. They are working with one arm tied behind their backs, they are the prisoners of a loony left party lead by Bob Brown who is the real PM of this country.
 
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