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Continuation Part 4: Discussion of the Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito case

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This just in:

The Hellman motivations' report has commented on why the appeal upheld calunnia.

It seems Hellmann's et. al. judgment was that Knox should have known that Lumumba could not have done the crime. Reason? Knox knew there was little to none connection between Kercher and Lumumba, and therefore should have been skeptical in the extreme that Lumumba could have done the deed - even if the police were browbeating her with that claim.

Excellent! That reasoning is about what I expected: so lame on logical and legal grounds it's ripe for appeal. I suspect I may have been right that Hellmann didn't support the conviction on the calunnia charge, I'm sure he must have included additional reasons, but just including this one suggests he's either reaching unto the abyss for support, or he's signaling the Supreme Court to strike it down.

That's because it's not even internally consistent with the case, after all Rudy Guede knew Meredith even less well, and he murdered her. One cannot assume that lack of connection between two people inherently disproves police evidence or suspicion and cannot be compelling.

It looks like the Hellmann report is not terriby complimentary of the police interrogation either.

Which didn't even have to be included except to dismiss those concerns as Massei did, thus this is another positive development.

In any event, some pro-guilt people are now assigning Hellmann with the same satanic influence that everyone else is assigned when they look at the evidence and sya, "There's nothing here to even hint that Knox and/or Sollecito had something to do with this."

My view: case closed. Your mileage will vary.

Bill W. Williams

Daddy Hellmann has his day! :p
 
The only person with the authority to appeal the acquittal for murder is the chief prosecutor, Giancarlo Costagliola. Today he preferred not to comment. HERE.

///
 
This seems like very weak reasoning -- I thought it would be more of the "she requested the pen and paper when she was not under duress" reasoning.
Me too. What can I say? Hellmann doesn't seem to be reading my posts here - so much for the massive PR machine. Marriott has already called department heads together to "discuss" how this one got away. I suspect a few more Christmas bonuses are about to get the deep six.

However, Marriott made it pretty clear he's unhappy with the unanimous verdict of the Hellmann panel. "I keep telling you, I'll be damned if the giant and massive PR campaign will pay for a unanimous verdict. How many times do I have to tell you bozos, that in Italy all they need is a majority of the panel!!!!"

I think those gorgeous Valentine chocolates to the PR staff on the third floor are now history. Somebody bought off ALL the jurors!
 
shopkeeper

I particularly like this bit, from Nick Pisa's Daily Mail article:
See, now that just throws my whole moral universe into chaos. :(
katy_did,

Nick Pisa does not mention the camisole, which is more conservative than a G string. I was also puzzled over this: "The judge cast doubts on several prosecution witnesses, including a shopkeeper who claimed that Miss Knox had bought detergent from him the morning after the murder." I was under the impression that there was no claim that Amanda bought anything, nor any receipts.
 
This just in:

The Hellman motivations' report has commented on why the appeal upheld calunnia.

It seems Hellmann's et. al. judgment was that Knox should have known that Lumumba could not have done the crime. Reason? Knox knew there was little to none connection between Kercher and Lumumba, and therefore should have been skeptical in the extreme that Lumumba could have done the deed - even if the police were browbeating her with that claim.

It looks like the Hellmann report is not terriby complimentary of the police interrogation either.

Bill W. Williams

So Amanda Knox, extremely tired and with her memory impaired should have reasoned that a man she had only known for a few weeks could not possibly have murdered Meredith.

But the police must have known Lumumba much better than Amanda (it seems he was almost the most well known person in Perugia), and yet despite multiple people giving Patrick alibis, and their considerable investigative resources, they still kept him in prison for two weeks.

But the 20 year old woman should have been able to do a better job than the police, and in an instant?

Huh?

And by failing to do that she is to be imprisoned for three years?
 
Moving forward, how likely is the following scenario (could someone knowledgeable of Italian judicial procedures please enlighten me)? Amanda (or rather, her Italian legal team) appeal the calumnia conviction. The Prosecutor's Office appeals the acquittals, but purely pour l'honneur de pavilion. Cassazione upholds the acquittals and on the calumnia, rules that the charge should not have been tried with the murder and related charges and orders a new first-instance trial, possibly combined with the other slander charges that have yet to be resolved. The Prosecutor's Office then proceeds with a speed that a snail on valium hauling a ten-kilo concrete block could overtake, the whole matter dies of statute of limitations expiry.
 
This just in:

The Hellman motivations' report has commented on why the appeal upheld calunnia.

It seems Hellmann's et. al. judgment was that Knox should have known that Lumumba could not have done the crime. Reason? Knox knew there was little to none connection between Kercher and Lumumba, and therefore should have been skeptical in the extreme that Lumumba could have done the deed - even if the police were browbeating her with that claim.

It looks like the Hellmann report is not terriby complimentary of the police interrogation either.

In any event, some pro-guilt people are now assigning Hellmann with the same satanic influence that everyone else is assigned when they look at the evidence and sya, "There's nothing here to even hint that Knox and/or Sollecito had something to do with this."

My view: case closed. Your mileage will vary.

Bill W. Williams
Just got home and saw the CNN report that Hellmann's motivation is in. :eek: I says "case closed" as well; the prosecutorial appeal will not abide.
 
Wow, unanimous, and Amanda has made her statement::)


But look at this, from CNN News:

Either side can appeal a conviction in Italy, but appeals cannot be filed before the judge publishes the jury's reasoning for its verdict.
An appeal in the Knox case would be on narrow technical grounds only and would probably take a day or two. It is unlikely Knox would return to Italy from the United States for the appeal.
http://edition.cnn.com/2011/12/15/world/europe/italy-amanda-knox/
 
By way of TJMK and pmf:
Hellmann has ruled sharply and decisively, as was supposed he would:

Page 8
Lumumba was arrested following “spontaneous” Knox’s statements.Please note: Court’s quote.

Page 11
The previous report is long even (italian: “ben”) 425 pages.

Page 12
Quintavalle: testimony, however, after one year

Page 27
Guede and sentence of Supreme Court. The sentence is not binding for the Appeal Court mainly because: defendants would be judged on the basis of evidence obtained in their absence during Guede’s trial; Guede’s trial was fast Track (“abbreviato”).

Page 28
Bra clasp, knife, wounds, break-in: examining separately all these facts is strengthened the hypothesis of the presence of an only one person in the house.

Page 30
In page 30 cartwheels are recognized as “gymnastic maneuvers“ ( italian: “manovre ginniche”).

Page 30-35
Calunnia. AK accused Lumumba because exhausted by obsessive interrogations without lawyer. She was well aware of accusing an innocent person, so she is guilty but without aggravating circumstances. Anyway her guilt cannot be used as evidence to the murder.

Page 40
Guede surprisingly has never been questioned .... follows the description of the well known hearings ... conclusion: Guede is unreliable also for this trial, in particular during the hearing of 27 June and also his letter. Instead the chat from Germany with his friend Benedetti is considered reliable.

Page 42
Aviello, Alessi, Castelluccio, De Cesare, Trincan. Called by defense are considered unreliable but the prosecution can not exploit them as witnesses against the defendants.

Page 44 and following.
Curatolo. He is a tramp, now held in prison, with a decline of his mental faculties. Unreliable.

Pages 51-55
Quintavalle. One year later.

Pages 56-58
Capezzali. Unreliable
Monacchia. Not clear.
Deamis.Unreliable.

Pages 58-61
Phone calls. For the Court, Bongiorno’s considerations are valid while Massei is wrong, so the time of death is fixed not later than 22,30

Page 64
Murder weapon.The arguments of defense consultants seem more convincing than the prosecution’s.

Page 87
The clue represented by presence of Meredith’s dna on the knife cannot be considered valid/existing

Page 92
Bra clasp. Contaminated before gathering

Page 100
Footprint on the bathmat. Probably belongs to Guede

... Mixed blood ...

Pages 114-123
Staged break-in. Real and not staged.

Pages 123-130
Alibi. Erroneous conclusions drawn by the Court because based on erroneous scientific expertise .

Page 129
The shower. Not implausible

Page 131
Phone call to Meredith at 12.07. Nothing of suspect.

Page 137
Remain; 1) calunnia 2) non completely proved alibi.
 
Amanda's calunnia conviction will be appealed and ---contrary to earlier reports---the Hellman court's acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele for murder was unanimous. Raffaele has already spoken. A statement from Amanda is expected shortly.
HERE.

///


Well, well, well. Hellmann's report jibes* with our analysis extraordinarily highly. His court determined that the break in was likely real, that the partial print on the bathmat was likely Guede's (contrary to those risible and pseudoscientific "millimetre accuracy" measurements hehe), that the totality of the forensic evidence was fundamentally flawed, that Curatolo was a shambling wreck of a "superwitness", that Quintavalle, Capezzali, Monacchia and Formica were all thoroughly unreliable, and that the ToD was before 10.30pm.

This is what anyone with a rational, objective, scientific, sceptical approach has known for a very long time now. It's only those with a bizarre agenda and a deeply invested position who have stuck to the thoroughly ludicrous (and now totally discredited) Mignini-Massei position. They might like to note with interest Hellmann's/Zanetti's explicit condemnation of Massei's appalling "reasoning" - something that we rational thinkers have also been pointing out for a very long time.

I still think that the criminal slander verdict is eminently appealable, and I hope that Knox does lodge an appeal. It will be interesting to see whether the prosecutors appeal the acquittals: Mignini and Comodi remain full of piss and vinegar, but it's not their decision to take. We'll see......

Oh and by the way, just to correct others elsewhere who don't know some aspects of this case as well as they think they do, Knox's erstwhile cellmate, Angela Biriukova (a.k.a. "The Black Widow") was not convicted in the first trial, acquitted on appeal, then "re-convicted" by the Supreme Court. Instead, she was acquitted in the first trial, then convicted in the appeal, and this appeal conviction was confirmed by the Supreme Court. But never let the facts get in the way of a good story though, eh?!

Sorry, pro-guilt commentators. It's truly over. I have doubts that more circumspect senior prosecutors will even launch a Supreme Court appeal over the acquittals. But if they do appeal, they'll lose. They have no grounds whatsoever, and no case. Conversely, I think that Knox stands a very good chance of successfully appealing the criminal slander verdict - for reasons that have been articulated here before. Whether she has the stomach for a re-trial at the appeal stage of this charge is debatable though - she may just want the whole thing to end, and to get on with her life.

Oh, and by the way, some people still seem to have no idea about the difference between free speech and defamation. Would it be "free speech", for example, if I were to publicly state that (insert living former US president of your choice here) had raped and killed a Puerto Rican immigrant fourteen year old while in office? Do you think that I could claim a free speech defence in court? The same applies (albeit slightly less sensationally) to referring to Amanda Knox as a "murderer" post the Hellmann verdict. Again, whether she or her lawyers have the inclination to pursue sad internet nobodies is debatable, but people should be in absolutely no doubt that since October 3rd 2011, this is a potentially defamatory statement. But good luck with your bogus "free speech" argument :D


* Small intra-forum joke there, related to another thread :)
 
Excellent! That reasoning is about what I expected: so lame on logical and legal grounds it's ripe for appeal. I suspect I may have been right that Hellmann didn't support the conviction on the calunnia charge, I'm sure he must have included additional reasons, but just including this one suggests he's either reaching unto the abyss for support, or he's signaling the Supreme Court to strike it down.

That's because it's not even internally consistent with the case, after all Rudy Guede knew Meredith even less well, and he murdered her. One cannot assume that lack of connection between two people inherently disproves police evidence or suspicion and cannot be compelling.
I'm going to take one last kick at the cat, because even I suspect that Hellmann is allowing room for eventual overturning of calunnia. (And I don't give up a position easily.)

The one difference between Guede/Kercher and Knox/Lumumba is that the former does have his DNA all over the place at the crime scene. So it is not a good parallel. Even though their horribly criminal encounter on Nov 1 was "unlikely", it did, in fact, happen.

The lack of connection between Lumumba and Knox still remains that - no reason for Knox to corroborate anything the police told her.

But if overturned on final appeal, I can still claim some moral point - the point being, that one needs to dig deep into one's soul to find the strength to utter the truth sooner than a young, unstreetwise, foreigner managed in 2007.

I think we all should be muted in our high fives, though. This is still a story of a horrible murder of a true innocent.
 
Amanda's calunnia conviction will be appealed and ---contrary to earlier reports---the Hellman court's acquittal of Amanda and Raffaele for murder was unanimous. Raffaele has already spoken. A statement from Amanda is expected shortly.
HERE.

///

Unanimous, interesting.
I find the jurors/judges comments very interesting. Hopefully some will comment about the case.
 
from the Milan AP-
The appellate court even contradicted the lower court's time of death, saying it happened at around 10:15 p.m., not after 11 p.m.


So this aligns with a lot of what was said here too...including the 10:13 ping and Rudy saying he'd fled by 10:30apprx. , which also fit with the Tow Truck incident.

and the man who bumped into Formica, and the car parked in front of the gate the TowTruck driver saw is still a large unknown.... Rudys accomplice?
Was Alessi telling the truth of Rudys prison yard chats explaining what happened? Very possible, imo.
 
The one difference between Guede/Kercher and Knox/Lumumba is that the former does have his DNA all over the place at the crime scene. So it is not a good parallel. Even though their horribly criminal encounter on Nov 1 was "unlikely", it did, in fact, happen.

The lack of connection between Lumumba and Knox still remains that - no reason for Knox to corroborate anything the police told her.


But the question is, whether Knox should have somehow known that Lumumba was definitely not the murderer even through she wasn't there. Guede had no more connection to Meredith than Lumumba, and the evidence eventually showed him to be the murderer. Therefore, simple lack of a "connection" is hardly logical proof that someone must definitely be innocent.

Also, aren't we always being told that Partick liked Meredith, and was planning on sacking Amanda so that he could give Meredith her job? That was put forward as a possible motive for Amanda to have murdered Meredith. Could it be that it's not true? Was Patrick not planning to give Meredith Amanda's job after all?

Rolfe.
 
Interestingly, Mignini seems to be telling anyone who will listen that the Hellmann verdict will be appealled. However Costaglioli, who is the person who actually has the power to lodge a prosecution appeal, is sticking with "no comment".

At the same time we're told that Maresca has announced that he will definitely appeal. This could be the reason Mignini says there will certainly be an appeal, even though Costaglioli is being tight-lipped about it. Is Maresca allowed to appeal on behalf of the Kerchers, even if the prosecution doesn't appeal? On what grounds?

It seems to me that Maresca was there as the agent of the Kerchers, in their case against Knox and Sollecito for damages in respect of their liability for Meredith's death. This is subtly different from his being an agent of the prosecution. I would have thought that if the prosecution itself doesn't appeal, then Knox and Sollecito are judged blameless of Meredith's death, therefore Maresca has no case.

Can he really appeal the acquittal even if Costaglioli doesn't?

Rolfe.

Oh, and as I was posting my last post, I saw I spelled Patrick's name "Partick". That's a place name round here, so it doesn't look wrong to me or my spell-checker. If the post isn't approved within the editing window, accept my apologies for this and other typos.
 
from the Milan AP-
The appellate court even contradicted the lower court's time of death, saying it happened at around 10:15 p.m., not after 11 p.m.


So this aligns with a lot of what was said here too...including the 10:13 ping and Rudy saying he'd fled by 10:30apprx. , which also fit with the Tow Truck incident.

and the man who bumped into Formica, and the car parked in front of the gate the TowTruck driver saw is still a large unknown.... Rudys accomplice?
Was Alessi telling the truth of Rudys prison yard chats explaining what happened? Very possible, imo.


I stll think the evidence points to a time of death about an hour earlier than that. If may be, of course, that 22.15 is the latest possible time, rather than the actual time.

I think Rudy (+/- accomplices) fled about 22.15-ish. I think Meredith had been dead for about an hour by then, but there's all the subsequent faffing around with washing blood off trousers and so on to account for.

Rolfe.
 
Amanda Knox trial was flawed at every turn, says appeal judge

The Italian appeal court judge who freed Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito in October after they spent four years in jail for killing British student Meredith Kercher has criticised almost every stage of the investigation that led to their convictions.

In a 143-page document explaining his court's acquittal, released on Thursday, judge Pratillo Hellman seeks to discredit witnesses who saw Knox, a student from Seattle, and her former boyfriend Sollecito, at the scene of the crime, and questions DNA evidence.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/dec/15/amanda-knox-trial-flawed-says-judge?INTCMP=SRCH
 
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