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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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RoboTimbo,

Keep on misrepresenting me and my story all you want. It only serves to demonstrate that your ufology bashing agenda relies on it along with your constant flames. When will you actually contribute something useful?


A little more detailed discussion of the J. Randall Murphy UFO hoax, which was determined to be a hoax through objective assessment by multiple independent witnesses, could be productive. After all, this thread is about UFO research, evidence, and related issues like hoaxes, misidentifications, and such. So what is it exactly about your own alleged alien craft sighting, commonly accepted to be a UFO hoax, that makes it objectively different from any other UFO hoax?
 
RoboTimbo,

Keep on misrepresenting me and my story all you want. It only serves to demonstrate that your ufology bashing agenda relies on it along with your constant flames. When will you actually contribute something useful?

I will only mention it every time you misrepresent what others have said or use other fallacious arguments. My suggestion would be to not do those things in the future.

Why don't you want to discuss the J Randall Murphy UFO ( firefly ) Hoax? It is easily researched by reviewing the hoaxer's posts to see how the story has changed over time. Those are confirmed by anecdotal evidence from numerous unrelated witnesses who all relate the same story about the hoax. That is certainly more and better evidence than we've ever had for any UFO (Unidentified Flying Object) to be an Alien Space Ship (ASS), wouldn't you agree?
 
wollery,

Simply because it's possible that people can be fooled by a perceptual illusion doesn't mean that they were.

True. But it also doesn't mean they weren't. The big point here is that when all you've got is an anecdote, you cannot rule out the possibility. If you disagree, then produce a method that can do so and also ample evidence that it actually works.
 
Krikkiter,

So by tactile, I presume you mean something that isn't simply observed, but can also be touched ... at least that is the general interpretation of "tactile". If that's the case then what about historians who have written about transient phenomena such as comets? Is it only because a lot of people can see comets at the same time and for a longer period of time that makes writing about their observations "respectable"? Perhaps you should review the 1952 DC Sightings ( as previously mentioned ).

As for what constitutes a "self-respecting historian", one would think that all any respectable writer who records any event can do is provide as honest and accurate an account as is possible. I certainly don't maintain that civilians have any substantial material evidence for UFOs that can be openly displayed. But should that mean nobody should be allowed to write about people's UFO experiences? Certainly not. Does it automatically mean that every UFO experience is a fabrication or hoax? Certainly not. Does it mean that there is no value in sharing UFOs experiences via the written word? Certainly not.

P.S. WHat do you mean by a "mix-down"


Just quickly, before the talent walks in to hear the results...

It's kind of what I mean - comets etc are identified using scientific methods - they don't use historical methods and if they did, well...

P.S. A mix-down is audio related. I'm an audio engineer.
 
But if you already know what they are, if you're already convinced that they are indeed alien craft, then it's not impossible to discern their size. Duh!


You can't know how far away they are, how big they are, and consequently anything at all about their "performance" without identifying them first.

So, if the "performance characteristics" are what identify them as alien craft, and you can't know their "performance characteristics" without first determining their size and distance, and you can't know that without knowing what they are in the first place...

See how it just goes round and round, in the absence of verifiable, material evidence?


You blokes obviously haven't availed yourselves of all the resources you need to do proper ufailogy.


Janes_ET_Guide.jpg
 
Then there are highly qualified people familiar with things seen in the sky who have also seen them. Then there are even more highly trained and rigorously tested people familiar with the most advanced aircraft in the world who have also seen them.
How many times do you need telling.
There is no one on this planet who is highly trained or qualified to see unidentified flying objects!
 
wollery,

Simply because it's possible that people can be fooled by a perceptual illusion doesn't mean that they were.


And your infallible method of sorting the fooled from the not fooled is _____________________ ?


In the absence of a deliberate and professional hoax, the chances of being fooled into certainty about anything is exceedingly small.


And this explains why mass sightings of UFOs never, ever turn out later to have been the result of misidentification of mundane objects such as Chinese lanterns, weather balloons, Venus, etcetera.

Except that it obviously doesn't, does it, fo?


You don't want to believe that and prefer instead to think that UFO witnesses are incompetent.


The lack of a mulderesque desire to believe is considered to be a good thing in critical thinking circles, fo. It's little surprise that you'd be unaware of this.

The garbage about generalising all witnesses as being incompetent is yet another of your straw men. You really should consider going into the stock feed business.


But the fact is that you are just plain wrong. Most witnesses are reasonably well informed people who can tell the difference between something natural or manmade and something out of this world.


Only if they have the Jane's Extra-terrestrial Craft Recognition Guide handy, although considering the small number of sales we've made I wouldn't have thought this would happen very often. You haven't been flogging pirate copies via your website, have you?


Then there are highly qualified people familiar with things seen in the sky who have also seen them.


Exactly what kind of qualifications do you think are required to see something unidentifiable, fo?


Then there are even more highly trained and rigorously tested people familiar with the most advanced aircraft in the world who have also seen them.


Seen what? UFOs?

Nobody here has ever denied that, fo. What's being questioned is your claimed ability to make the leap from "Wow, did you see that?" to "OMG . . . aliens!"


Your stubborn choice to dismiss such evidence amounts to willful ignorance.


The pot calls the kettle "Snowflake" and wonders why everyone is pointing and laughing at it.


By contrast, at least I can admit that it's both possible, likely and actually the case, that some number of UFO reports are the result of misidentification, hoaxes and other natural or manmade phenomena.


The problem is that your version of "some number" is several orders of magnitude smaller than the one indicated by reality.


What's your excuse?


Butterflies, little girls and your pathetic straw men don't require excuses.
 
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The pot calls the kettle "Snowflake" and wonders why everyone is pointing and laughing at it.


And since I'm not part of the "everyone" that's laughing (though I dont agree with the guy), what does that mean?


Regardless of your demographic, it means that the standard pot/kettle/black idiom couldn't possibly do justice to the irony of ufology accusing other people of willful ignorance.
 
You blokes obviously haven't availed yourselves of all the resources you need to do proper ufailogy.


[qimg]http://www.yvonneclaireadams.com/HostedStuff/Janes_ET_Guide.jpg[/qimg]​

Yes, but does it include recon drones?

I mean lets say you positively identify a strange light in the sky as alien in origin. You first make sure you are not just seeing things - perhaps by scrunching your eyes up and squinting a bit. To determine its size and distance you are going to need to know whether you are dealing with a tiny drone or something larger, perhaps even a mother ship!
 
Just quickly, before the talent walks in to hear the results...

It's kind of what I mean - comets etc are identified using scientific methods - they don't use historical methods and if they did, well...

P.S. A mix-down is audio related. I'm an audio engineer.


Krikkiter,

I think you missed the point. Perfectly "respectable" historians who are not scientists have written about the experiences of common people who have experienced out of the ordinary events for which science had no "tactile evidence", and comets are but one example. To elaborate further, consider the case of Halley's Comet. Not a shred of "tactile evidence" existed for the long line of historians who have written about it. Its chronicle goes back to before Christ ... before science and the scientific method even existed. It wasn't until 1986 that we managed to get our technology close enough to get a good look at it. So what I've done here is point out that perfectly reasonable historical records of events that are not fully understood can be made by perfectly "reputable" historians, and that over time, such mysteries can be solved. Why should the UFO phenomenon be treated any differently?

P.S. I thought you may have been refering to the audio mastering process, but wanted to be sure. Are you working on a music project or something else?
 
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Yes, but does it include recon drones?

I mean lets say you positively identify a strange light in the sky as alien in origin. You first make sure you are not just seeing things - perhaps by scrunching your eyes up and squinting a bit. To determine its size and distance you are going to need to know whether you are dealing with a tiny drone or something larger, perhaps even a mother ship!


Well, I've been led to believe by no less an authority than an international OMG . . . aliens! club that all human beings are born with an infallible ability to determine the size/speed/distance of any object under any conditions at a glance and retain that data flawlessly in memory for decades.

Have I been misinformed?
 
Krikkiter,

I think you missed the point. Perfectly "respectable" historians who are not scientists have written about the experiences of common people who have experienced out of the ordinary events for which science had no "tactile evidence", and comets are but one example. To elaborate further, consider the case of Halley's Comet. Not a shred of "tactile evidence" existed for the long line of historians who have written about it. Its chronicle goes back to before Christ ... before science and the scientific method even existed. It wasn't until 1986 that we managed to get our technology close enough to get a good look at it. So what I've done here is point out that perfectly reasonable historical records of events that are not fully understood can be made by perfectly "reputable" historians, and that over time, such mysteries can be solved. Why should the UFO phenomenon be treated any differently?


Communication breakdown... all good though.

Ancient history is way more vague than modern history. Ancient historians really need tactile things to verify evidence/facts. BUT, in the case of Halley's Comet, anecdotes were confirmed by modern science. My understanding (admittedly very limited though it is), is that it was a comparatively regular event that was recorded in text form, and in the past people were like, WTF?! Then as our tools and methods improved we came to understand WTF was going on.

But now that the mix-down is done and I can relax I'd like to throw in a possibly related analogy.

I'm not sure if it was Herodotus or one of the other blokes but I read a section of his book where he relates a story about the "original" language. Apparently, as an experiment two children brought themselves up in a hut with minimal adult supervision - no-one was allowed to talk to them - and a few goats hangin around. Herodotus visits the kids one day and they were speaking Phrygian. Herodotus declared that the original human language was Phrygian.

Now, forget the logic of the story. Do we even believe his tale at all? I don't think so.

There was a point to all that but I seem to have forgotten what it was.
 
Well, I've been led to believe by no less an authority than an international OMG . . . aliens! club that all human beings are born with an infallible ability to determine the size/speed/distance of any object under any conditions at a glance and retain that data flawlessly in memory for decades.

Have I been misinformed?


Akhenaten,

Have you been misinformed? Quite the contrary, you are the one doing the misinforming via your flames and misrepresentations. But at least I've discovered that your participation isn't totally useless. There is a distinct entertainment value in your posts ... not unlike the late Andy Rooney for example. So you are in good company. Keep up the good work.
 
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It wasn't until 1986 that we managed to get our technology close enough to get a good look at it.


Drivel. The entire Earth and all of us with eyes to see have always been close enough to get a good look at it. No technology required.


So what I've done here is point out that perfectly reasonable historical records of events that are not fully understood can be made by perfectly "reputable" historians, and that over time, such mysteries can be solved.


You've done no such thing.


Why should the UFO phenomenon be treated any differently?


Many aspects of the "UFO phenomenon" are treated seriously, and that's how we arrive at our confidence in the null hypothesis that all UFOs are of mundane origin.

What you really want is for your version of the UFO phenomenon - "OMG . . . aliens!" - to be taken seriously but pretending that there's some scientific or historical reason for indulging your fantasy isnt going to work.
 
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