JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[Robert Prey]

So your really believe this ridiculously, needlessly, convoluted plan conspiracy theorists have concoted is actually plausible? That they would set up a patsy in one location and shoot Kennedy from a completely different one thus requiring endless readaction and editing of evidence and creating a massive potential failure point?

All any plotter has to do to cover their tracks is make sure the fatal bullet is fired at least roughly from the same trajectory as Oswald would have shot from but no, in CT land they instead concoct a plan out of the worst hack thriller where everyhting depends on luck and chance to make it all work, a plan that depends on which car Kennedy decides to travel in for goodness sake!

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

 

[matt.tansy]

The most detailed and convoluted plan the world has ever known could have been foiled by a Dallas citizen sneaking behind the picket fence to take a leak.

 

[matt.tansy]

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

Your plan to assassinate the President is too complicated? We can fix that by making it even more complicated!

 

[RoboTimbo]

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

Will you be presenting any evidence for your assertions? So far, the only evidence you've provided has confirmed Oswald as the lone gunman. Rather like you being the only shooter of your feet.

 

[EventHorizon]

No such thing has been pointed out. But Clint Hill's observation does indeed put another nail in the Lone Nutter coffin, so much so, that you guys simply have to resort to your final escape into Denial.

You know what, you're right. Clint Hill's observations are undeniable. There was one shooter in the school book depository. There were only two shots fired and no shots came from the grassy knoll. Glad that's settled then.

 

[Garrison]

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

Leaving aside the point that you have provided no evidence for such backups it is still utter nonsense because if there was a plan it was flawed at the most basic level. Why not simply choose a set up where you knew Kennedy would have to be in the open? And where you could easily ensure that the actual and alleged shooter were at least roughly on the same trajectory? Instead you posit endless convolution involving huge numbers of people having to endlessly plug holes created by the ludicrous plot. Frankly it would be more at home in a Mitchell and Webb sketch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoZ71sj3Kn0

 

[JohnG]

That's a "mistake"??? That's all you guys can come up with. Trivialities? Pathetic.

You said:

Because no one has been able to prove any mistake.

So I pointed out one of your mistakes and yes it was trivial but that was exactly my point. If you can't even acknowledge a trivial mistake it is highly unlikely you'll acknowledge a mistake on a subject as serious and important as the JFK assassination. Get it?

The other reason I chose that specific mistake is that you can't waffle on about subjective interpretations of the evidence. Even in an example where even you must realize are wrong you are too proud and stubborn to admit it, even if it would prove me wrong about you.

Pathetic.

 

[Robrob]

So your really believe this ridiculously, needlessly, convoluted plan conspiracy theorists have concoted is actually plausible? That they would set up a patsy in one location and shoot Kennedy from a completely different one thus requiring endless readaction and editing of evidence and creating a massive potential failure point?

All any plotter has to do to cover their tracks is make sure the fatal bullet is fired at least roughly from the same trajectory as Oswald would have shot from but no, in CT land they instead concoct a plan out of the worst hack thriller where everyhting depends on luck and chance to make it all work, a plan that depends on which car Kennedy decides to travel in for goodness sake!

Apparently all conspirators take a bet as to how complex their plan can be and still work.

The most detailed and convoluted plan the world has ever known could have been foiled by a Dallas citizen sneaking behind the picket fence to take a leak.

Funny how with all the many convoluted and complex CT out there, not a single one has ever been exposed or thwarted.

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

Feel free to present evidence supporting your fantastical claim of "back-up shooters" and "back-up patsies" and "back-up locations!" You can't even prove the primary theory, much less the alternate ones!

Your plan to assassinate the President is too complicated? We can fix that by making it even more complicated!

At least you'd think the "real" assassin would have been firing from somewhere in the same general LOS as Oswald.

Hey, was the "back-up patsy" also a defector, fluent in Russian and carrying a mail order rifle? Did they invent and entirely separate, just as convoluted conspiracy to set him up or was patsy #2 a "Navy Intelligence Officer" slash High School drop out as well? Wonder how they stopped patsy #2 from acting and then how did they cover it up? Certainly would have been embarrassing for there to have been more than one patsy shooting people that same day!

 

[GregHouseMD]

The back of the head photo is fake. Andi it's not just Lifton's opinion that it's fake. Not only is that pic inconsistent with some 40 witnesses at both Parkland and Bethesda, but it is also inconsistent with the official autopsy report.

Who faked that photo?

Are you saying that the official autopsy is accurate and can be believed by people like yourself that think JFK was the victim of a massive conspiracy?

I thought the "frightened autopsy doc's" could not be trusted, or did I remember something you have forgotten you said?

I notice that you now count the number of witnesses at over 40, up from 30 something.

By Christmas it may well be the population of Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

ETA: Robert, I live near Dallas. I have worked in Law Enforcement and I was at one time a competitive pistol shooter. I knew Ray of Ray's Hardware (he sold Ruby the 38 pistol used to kill LHO.) I was in the hardware store one day when he was complaining about how much Ruby's pistol fetched at auction a few days before. Ray sold Ruby the gun for $62.50 and it auctioned for $200,000. I also used to work part time at the Winchester Gun Range where LHO sighted his rifle in. Many, many years after the fact of course.

Have you been to Dallas? Have you been up to the 6th floor?* I have, the shot would have been very easy especially with a scoped rifle and a solid rest such as they found when they located the "snipers nest."

*Of course the 6th floor itself is sealed off.

I'm just wondering how much info you have gathered from the interwebs and how much you actually went to investigate yourself.

 

[LSSBB]

It was for the very reason of anticipating luck and chance unfavorable to the intended outcome that they had to have back-up plans, back-up shooters, back-up Patsies, and back-up locations for the Big Event. It was all very professional and the proof is in its ultimate "success."

I think you have been reading the Illuminatus Trilogy, where there were five shooters and the only one to actually kill him was a pissed off investor in an aerospace company who had sold all his shares before Kennedy announced his plans for space exploration.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Ah, ah, ah... That's the old

False dilemma (false dichotomy, fallacy of bifurcation, black-or-white fallacy): two alternative statements are held to be the only possible options, when in reality there are more.[

Your admission and apology, please.

Robert. That was a joke based on a question you have demanded we answer about your sources on a number of occassions.

You suggesting that you were wrong to ask us if the Parkland staff were lying or mistaken?
Do you intend to appologise and retract your own statements also?

 

[Tomtomkent]

No, I'm not going to deal with more of your trivialities. If there are minor differences, then you point them out and then explain why a minor difference is of major importance.

Whoa there Gumdrop! A triviality?

A long paragraph about the rear portion of the head being missing and brains being everywhere is not a triviality. It is the basis of your case, and it doesn't appear in the pdf transcript of the interview.

So you were too lazy to see what i was talking about and assumed it was trivial? Or does your idea the photographic record (which has not been discredited despite your offthecuff claim, you have yet to prove it wrong only that it does not match witness testemony which we can now not rely on because of the possibility of a flawed source) being wrong doesnt count on Hills actual statement?

 

[Tomtomkent]

How about this autopsy photo of the back of the head? Would you accept this?

Ha! Told you the Tippet photographs would be used sooner or later.

Wow. And I'm pretty sure I even linked to an entertaining article on it before. ETA: I did think we were there with the deathstare, but that was so heavily cropped it took a while to get a good fit.

Its funny, hilarious in fact, how all the photos available of JFK post mortem are fake... unless robert wants to use them. He did explicity say that any photographs from the autopsy are faked, but just keeps posting them. He wont even accept the rest of the series that the Deathstare originates from. Which is a shame, the rear entry wound is very clear on one of them.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Robert Prey and the "Old False Dilema Falacy"....
I assume Robert intends to appologise, retract these statements and accept that "neither, the only available factual statement is that the Parkland testemony is not supported by any available material evidence" as a correct answer. Now he has shown he understands the logical fallacy, he has no excuse for the following:

Let's go over this again one by one. Are you saying that all these witnesses from both Parkland and Bethesda are either lying or mistaken?????

So your best guess is????, they are mistaken? Or lying? It's a simple question and does not require a PhD in Logic.

So were the Parkland witnesses all lying, or were they simply mistaken???

(Crickets still chirping)

So were the Parkland witnesses lying or just simply mistaken???

(Crickets still chirping)

(apparently he likes to copy and paste when responding to multiple posts.)

I believe you mean the Physicians not the Physicists. But that assertion was made a long time ago. Of course I do not believe the doctors, nurses and attendants at Parkland are lying, nor mistaken....

(Despite nobody suggesting they were, only that the statements do not match the available evidence.)

Would it be fair to say that if there was not large blow-out in the back of the head, then the Parkland witnesses were either mistaken or lying? That's not a loaded question <snip>

Actually, that is a loaded question. You are trying to suggest there are onlyt two possibole answers. Neither match the available facts.

Would it be fair to say that if there was not large blow-out in the back of the head, then the Parkland witnesses were either mistaken or lying? That's not a loaded question, <snip>

Ditto. The same lie about it not being a loaded question, twice. Sheesh.

And how to you account for all of the Parkland witnesses seeing a large blow-out in the back of the head? Were they all lying, or simply mistaken?????

So you duck the question? Was it a mistake by all at Parkland or a deliberate lie?

I am sure he will appologicse the use of the logical fallacy in his next posts.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Just to clarify a "trivial" difference... Note the information between hilighted statements.

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas...I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily -- right back into the same seat she was in. The President -- when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap... At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed...I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."....He said, "We have been hit."...I had my legs -- I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car...

The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head...

Compared to:

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a medical student or somebody in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?
Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?
Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car, his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up in her lap.
Mr. SPECTER. And that was, after she was back in the rear seat?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?
Mr. HILL. Inside the car.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the condition of Governor Connally at that time?
Mr. HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting. Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was completely covered with blood.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that?
Mr. HILL. Just after going under the underpass.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass?
Mr. HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on outside the automobile.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on the Presidential automobile?
Mr. HILL. Yes; I had scanned it.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on the overpass at that time?
Mr. HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a policeman there.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there?
Mr. HILL. Very few, I would say--maybe five, six.
Mr. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a policeman there?
Mr. HILL. He was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman.
Mr. SPECTER. What color uniform was it?
Mr. HILL. I think it was blue of some shade.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical color which other, Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed in the area?
Mr. HILL. That's correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the car made after it started to speed forward- that is, the Presidential car.
Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. In time or--
Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.
Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.
Mr. SPECTER. How about time?
Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you," and sobbed.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the nearest hospital, quick."
Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment?
Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit."
Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent Kellerman make?
Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.
Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything?
Mr. HILL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?
Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall, I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65 at the most.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leghold or any sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?
Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat, and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the assassination itself?
Mr. HILL. Approximately 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this--about how long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital?
Mr. HILL. Approximately 4 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition on arrival at the hospital?
Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Firstly: I did manage to find the talk about brains being everywhere, as you can see it was much further on in the interview, so distant I couldn't find it at first. Sorry about that.

However, there is no talk of how large the missing "rear portion" was, and no reason to assume, given the rear right location, this is not refering to the ENTRY wound.

The president was leaning forwards. So Hill was unable to see the EXIT wound that was concealed from him. And stated he had no way of doing so because of the sheer amount of mess. Exactly how large and gaping the wound was is not discussed in detail.

It is however NOT consistant with the Parkland description, or the drawing Robert supplied. The "right rear portion" is missing, not the majority of the back of the head, as described and drawn.

 

[Robert Prey]

Robert Prey and the "Old False Dilema Falacy"....
I assume Robert intends to appologise, retract these statements and accept that "neither, the only available factual statement is that the Parkland testemony is not supported by any available material evidence" as a correct answer. Now he has shown he understands the logical fallacy, he has no excuse for the following:





(apparently he likes to copy and paste when responding to multiple posts.)
(Despite nobody suggesting they were, only that the statements do not match the available evidence.)
Actually, that is a loaded question. You are trying to suggest there are onlyt two possibole answers. Neither match the available facts.
Ditto. The same lie about it not being a loaded question, twice. Sheesh.




I am sure he will appologicse the use of the logical fallacy in his next posts.

There was no logical fallacy here. You Lone Nutters had already dismissed the only other possibility - truth. So the dilemma you faced was not false, but real. And you still face the same dilemma.

 

[Robert Prey]

Just to clarify a "trivial" difference... Note the information between hilighted statements.



Compared to:



Firstly: I did manage to find the talk about brains being everywhere, as you can see it was much further on in the interview, so distant I couldn't find it at first. Sorry about that.

However, there is no talk of how large the missing "rear portion" was, and no reason to assume, given the rear right location, this is not refering to the ENTRY wound.

The president was leaning forwards. So Hill was unable to see the EXIT wound that was concealed from him. And stated he had no way of doing so because of the sheer amount of mess. Exactly how large and gaping the wound was is not discussed in detail.

It is however NOT consistant with the Parkland description, or the drawing Robert supplied. The "right rear portion" is missing, not the majority of the back of the head, as described and drawn.

And so your point is the comments of Hill were excerpts?? Of course they were excerpts. But they were not false.

 

[Robert Prey]

Ha! Told you the Tippet photographs would be used sooner or later.

Wow. And I'm pretty sure I even linked to an entertaining article on it before. ETA: I did think we were there with the deathstare, but that was so heavily cropped it took a while to get a good fit.

Its funny, hilarious in fact, how all the photos available of JFK post mortem are fake... unless robert wants to use them. He did explicity say that any photographs from the autopsy are faked, but just keeps posting them. He wont even accept the rest of the series that the Deathstare originates from. Which is a shame, the rear entry wound is very clear on one of them.

I merely asked if you would accept the photo as genuine. So you don't? You say it is of Tippit? And just how do you know that? But you do accept the Death Stare photo? Yes?

 

[Robert Prey]

Who faked that photo?

Are you saying that the official autopsy is accurate and can be believed by people like yourself that think JFK was the victim of a massive conspiracy?

I thought the "frightened autopsy doc's" could not be trusted, or did I remember something you have forgotten you said?

I notice that you now count the number of witnesses at over 40, up from 30 something.

By Christmas it may well be the population of Dallas on Nov. 22, 1963.

ETA: Robert, I live near Dallas. I have worked in Law Enforcement and I was at one time a competitive pistol shooter. I knew Ray of Ray's Hardware (he sold Ruby the 38 pistol used to kill LHO.) I was in the hardware store one day when he was complaining about how much Ruby's pistol fetched at auction a few days before. Ray sold Ruby the gun for $62.50 and it auctioned for $200,000. I also used to work part time at the Winchester Gun Range where LHO sighted his rifle in. Many, many years after the fact of course.

Have you been to Dallas? Have you been up to the 6th floor?* I have, the shot would have been very easy especially with a scoped rifle and a solid rest such as they found when they located the "snipers nest."

*Of course the 6th floor itself is sealed off.

I'm just wondering how much info you have gathered from the interwebs and how much you actually went to investigate yourself.

WoW! No, I've never been to Ray's Hardware, but you have!!! How impressive. I guess that makes you an expert on just about everything. I have indeed been to the Grassy Knoll. So I guess that makes me an expert too., eh?

The difference between 30 and 40 witnesses is ten. That is about the difference between the witnesses at Parkland and others, including Hill and those at Bethesda. More trivialities from the Lone Nutters having to confront 50 years of brainwash.

 

[Robert Prey]

Who faked that photo?

Are you saying that the official autopsy is accurate and can be believed by people like yourself that think JFK was the victim of a massive conspiracy?

I thought the "frightened autopsy doc's" could not be trusted, or did I remember something you have forgotten you said?

The autopsy report is misleading and ambiguous. But this passage cannot possibly be consistent with the the photo in question:

"There is a large irregular defect of the scalp and skull on the right involving chiefly the parietal bone but extending somewhat into the temporal and occipital regions. In this region, there is an actual absence of scalp and bone producing a defect which measures approximately 13 cm. in greatest diameter." P. 540, WR