Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[stilicho]

Not at all. They would be there just in case violence erupted.

It's too late by then. Once you've announced the intention to secure an area then the perpetrators have a choice to make.

....

Non-violent protests don't need security to be achieved. Security has already been achieved. The police presence is in case security does need to be achieved.

....

You don't lock your home because nobody is breaking in at the time. You lock the doors to help prevent people from breaking in after you leave for work.

irrelevant to this situation.
this was not a mob...violent or otherwise.

Had the perpetrators not been told that the area was to be cleared? If not then they are acting as a mob and not as lawful assemblers.

I think we're back in agreement, technically, with my compromise solution. It won't be kettling but instead the erection of a secure perimeter controlled by fencing and perhaps K9 handlers as this tends to reduce the possibility of injury to the officers monitoring the situation. The perpetrators will be free to assemble as long as they remain within the cordon and they may be detained once they need to leave for food, rest, medical attention or other reasons.

No pepper spray necessary.

The only thing remaining to be addressed is who is to pay for it. I don't want to see taxpayers saddled with the invoices for police duties when the perpetrators and the leaseholders could arrange to share the costs.

 

[Neally]

The police should have tried to arrest them first before spraying them, instead of the other way around.

Already covered before. You need to catch up. You're arriving at the party a little late. When people are chained together, you don't "try" to pry them apart to arrest them. Expert links given previously in the thread.

there was no need for 'crowd control'.
the students were seated. they were no threat.
the cops were in control...all they had to do was pick them up and carry them away.
cops do this all the time.

Um, no, not when they are locked together. Already been covered previously in the thread.

Have you seen the video? They have their arms locked. Once sprayed, they still have their arms locked, and still need to be forcibly picked up off the ground. Why did they need to be put in pain before this was done?

To gain compliance so that they could be separated without dislocating a shoulder or causing other injuries.

chained together????....dude, their arms were interlinked.
do you think that a big strong cop is incapable of forcing them apart?

Incapable, no. Likely to cause more serious injury, yes. That's why the correct procedure is to get them to comply with pepper spray.

police are within their rights to use appropriate force.

Yep, and that's just what they did.

the pepper spray was excessive and ineffective force.
they still pried them apart to carry them away.

Experts disagree.

Prove it.

Already did. Expert's citation earlier in the thread. Do try to keep up.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Already covered before. You need to catch up. You're arriving at the party a little late. When people are chained together, you don't "try" to pry them apart to arrest them. Expert links given previously in the thread.

Um, no, not when they are locked together. Already been covered previously in the thread.

To gain compliance so that they could be separated without dislocating a shoulder or causing other injuries.

Incapable, no. Likely to cause more serious injury, yes. That's why the correct procedure is to get them to comply with pepper spray.

Yep, and that's just what they did.

Experts disagree.

Already did. Expert's citation earlier in the thread. Do try to keep up.

Experts may agree that it may lead to more injury or violence, but cite where they say it's bettery to pepper spray people first. It takes a few seconds to actually see how resistent a person is before escalating it.

To me, pepper spraying a person before trying to arrest them is like bribing a Republican to be anti-abortion before asking if they are.

 

[Brainster]

That depends on how they force them apart, does it not?

A bar of soap should do it.

 

[Neally]

Experts may agree that it may lead to more injury or violence, but cite where they say it's bettery to pepper spray people first. It takes a few seconds to actually see how resistent a person is before escalating it.

They were told to disperse. They were told they would be sprayed if they didn't. They resisted. You don't "try" or "test" and start prying people apart. Correct procedure was followed.

All the huffing and puffing about excessive force and violence against the innocent protesters has been answered by experts. When the official word comes out by the committees, panels, and investigations that the chancellor has put together to try to cover her ass and save her job, she will shift gears by saying that she wants new standards in place so that this type of incident, although handled properly, won't be handled the same way again.

 

[leftysergeant]

Already covered before. You need to catch up. You're arriving at the party a little late. When people are chained together, you don't "try" to pry them apart to arrest them. Expert links given previously in the thread.

Horse feathers. Competent police are trained in techniques that will, although temporarily painful, cause most people to comply without causing actual injury.

Pepper spray can cause permanent injury or death if misused.

I help train soldiers in this stuff. Pike is a moron and a threat to public safety.

He's also lucky the crowd didn't get pissed off enough to come grab that spray bottle and do sosmething kinky with it.

 

[bookitty]

They were told to disperse. They were told they would be sprayed if they didn't. They resisted. You don't "try" or "test" and start prying people apart. Correct procedure was followed.

All the huffing and puffing about excessive force and violence against the innocent protesters has been answered by experts. When the official word comes out by the committees, panels, and investigations that the chancellor has put together to try to cover her ass and save her job, she will shift gears by saying that she wants new standards in place so that this type of incident, although handled properly, won't be handled the same way again.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/lan...er-spray-chancellor-police-defied-orders.html

UC Davis' embattled chancellor said campus police officers defied her orders when they used pepper spray on peaceful Occupy protesters last week...

"We told the police to remove the tents or the equipment," she told the paper. "We told them very specifically to do it peacefully, and if there were too many of them, not to do it, if the students were aggressive, not to do it. And then we told them we also do not want to have another Berkeley."

Passive resistance is a very strong tool to demonstrate abusive of power towards a minority or weaker group. This is why it was used by Gandhi, this is why it is used by anti-abortion demonstrators, why it is used in protests all over the world. If the powers that be can only offer violence as a response, they prove themselves either unwilling or unable to compromise.

 

[leftysergeant]

If the powers that be can only offer violence as a response, they prove themselves either unwilling or unable to compromise.

When they offer violence against those who pose no physical threat, they begin to look like monsters and tyrants.

People who have the ability to resist are more likely to resist a tyrant who sinks to torture to maintain the illusion of power.

 

[AlBell]

....

All the huffing and puffing about excessive force and violence against the innocent protesters ...

fyi: tv news mentioned 34 egyptian protestors were killed today; shot with real bullets.

 

[rustypouch]

When they offer violence against those who pose no physical threat, they begin to look like monsters and tyrants.

People who have the ability to resist are more likely to resist a tyrant who sinks to torture to maintain the illusion of power.

But those protesters were sitting quietly!

If they weren't pepper sprayed, they might have even started laying down, and who knows what kind of horribleness would have followed?

But for me, pepper, I put in on my plate. >.>

 

[NoahFence]

That depends on how they force them apart, does it not?

They'd force them apart with force!

oi vey!

 

[NoahFence]

did you bother to read my post before replying?
i said, "police are within their rights to use appropriate force."

Yes I read it. That's why I responded to it.

I'm saying, no matter what amount of force would be used, it would then be called "police brutality".

Fact.

 

[leftysergeant]

I'm saying, no matter what amount of force would be used, it would then be called "police brutality".

Fact.

Cow cookies. If you have video of a protestor with a stick getting sprayed, only an idiot would consider it inappropriate to put a monster hurting on the fool.

Most of us (especially those of us who have worked in law-enforcement or corrections training) just find it hard to accept that some fat-faced moron with a sprayer feels so threatened by some people sitting on the ground that he has to torture them into compliance.

 

[bikerdruid]

Yes I read it. That's why I responded to it.

I'm saying, no matter what amount of force would be used, it would then be called "police brutality".

Fact.

what did happen has been almost universally condemned.
fact.

 

[NoahFence]

Cow cookies. If you have video of a protestor with a stick getting sprayed, only an idiot would consider it inappropriate to put a monster hurting on the fool.

Most of us (especially those of us who have worked in law-enforcement or corrections training) just find it hard to accept that some fat-faced moron with a sprayer feels so threatened by some people sitting on the ground that he has to torture them into compliance.

Speaking for myself only - if I were that cop's superior, he'd be out on his posterior.

However, the occupy movement has shown itself to be incapable of rational thought, which leads me to the educated assumption that no matter what amount of force the police use, they'd be pegged for brutality.

Whether or not the accusation would stick is another point.

Speaking of point, can we get away from this idiot cop and back to OWS? For instance, who do they support for public office?

 

[NoahFence]

what did happen has been almost universally condemned.
fact.

Yes. I've said he'd be fired if I were in charge, and reinforced that opinion above.

 

[applecorped]

what did happen has been almost universally condemned.
fact.

almost universally?

Is that like somewhat pregnant?

 

[bikerdruid]

almost universally?

Is that like somewhat pregnant?

nope.

 

[thaiboxerken]

They were told to disperse. They were told they would be sprayed if they didn't. They resisted. You don't "try" or "test" and start prying people apart. Correct procedure was followed.

If I tell a person to leave my house, and they would be raped if they did not.....

Warning a person of violence does not mean that the violence is necessary, ethical, moral or legal.

 

[Virus]

and the fact that we are still talking about it proves it is still effective.
the whacktards can bitch and moan all they want....people are pissed off.
the revolution has begun.
bankers and capitalist pigs beware.
if you are not supporting the movement, you had best just keep out of the way.

And what if we don't want their revolution? What if we think putting the hard left in charge would make things worse?