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PETA President's Will

What on earth is your argument? Do you dispute that Singer says that we should give everything that is not a necessity to charity?

here is my argument in full:

"If you jump on someone's post and essentially claim they are a hypocrite for buying hair products, you're acting like a jerk."

Plus, we are talking about Gates. You know, the guy that flew economy red eye flights well into billionaire status, pinched every penny, etc. The man is not profligate by any stretch of the imagination. He's not spending the wealth he has, it's invested.

Yes, but from the way Ivor was acting, you'd think that Singer would begrudge Gates his hair products.
 
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here is my argument in full:

"If you jump on someone's post and essentially claim they are a hypocrite for buying hair products, you're acting like a jerk."
Okay, I took it as a good natured jest, as did, apparently, Dessi .They'll have to attest to their mental states, of course, but I guess I have as much right to interpret tones of a post as you do, and "<3" in response to his hair care question doesn't communicate that she thought he was being a jerk, to me. It was funny, if you like that kind of humor.

We are having pointed discussions, but they are interesting, don't you think? I still don't agree with many of Dessi's points, but so what? I've learned stuff about how she thinks about these things, and it is interesting to hear what somebody thinks about Singer, and how they live their life, when they strongly agree with his position, isn't it? I don't perceive any hostility between Ivor, Dessi, me, and some others, just strong advocacy for our respective positions. YMMV.
 
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Okay, I took it as a good natured jest, as did, apparently, Dessi (they'll have to attest to their mental states, of course, but I guess I have as much right to interpret tones of a post as you do).

We are having pointed discussions, but they are interesting, don't you think? I still don't agree with many of Dessi's points, but so what? I've learned stuff about how she thinks about these things, and it is interesting to hear what somebody thinks about Singer, and how they live their life, when they strongly agree with his position, isn't it? I don't perceive any hostility between Ivor, Dessi, me, and some others, just strong advocacy for our respective positions. YMMV.

Perhaps we need to all discuss it over dinner. Fogo de Chao, anyone? :D
 
No hostility from me. I'm a vegetarian, I regularly give blood and donate about $1000 a year to charity. I find the idea of animals being harmed by humans unpleasant, but am willing to tolerate it if their suffering is kept to a minimum and the products of that suffering are useful to other animals or humans.
 
I hear they have a great salad bar!

On a recent trip to Fort Worth for business I ended up eating fish for a few meals because there was nothing on the menu with any substantial calorific value and protein content that didn't have meat in it or on it. Even the bloody pinto beans were prepared in meat juices!

One day I ordered a vegetarian salad for lunch and it had bacon sprinkled all over it.

:boggled:

:)
 
I find the idea of animals being harmed by humans unpleasant, but am willing to tolerate it if their suffering is kept to a minimum and the products of that suffering are useful to other animals or humans.

I agree with this. I'm not a vegetarian/vegan, but that doesn't make me a monster (as some in this thread would have everyone believe).
 
Dessi, I am curious, since you obviously know more about Singer than most of us. The article we both linked to, The Singer Solution to World Poverty, has him stating that we should give everything that is not a necessity to charity. OTOH, google readily shows him recommending a charitable contribution more in line of 5-10%. Is the latter a concession to pragmatism (most won't give 30-90% of their income to charity, even if they should), or did he change his mind, or?
In my copy of Practical Ethics, p 245-246:
[Referring to consequentialism] If we think of principles as those that should be generally advocated, these are the principles, when advocated, will give rise to the best consequences. Where overseas aid is concerned, those will be the principles that lead to the largest amount being given by the affluent to the poor.

Is it true that the standard set by our argument is so high as to be counterproductive? There is not much evidence to go y, but discussions of the argument, with students and others have led me to think it might be. Yet, the conventionally accepted standard - a few coins in a collection tin when one is waved under your nose -- is obviously far too low. What level should we advocate? Any figure will be arbitrary, but there may be something to be said for a round percentage of one's income like, say, 10 per cent - more than a token donation, yet not so high as to be beyond all but saints. (This figure has the additional advantage of being reminiscent of the ancient tithe, or tenth, that was traditionally given to the church, whose responsibilities included care of the poor in one's local community. Perhaps the idea can be revived and applied to the global community. Some families, of course, will find 10 per cent a considerable strain on their finances. Others may be able to give more without difficulty. No figure should be advocated as a rigid minimum or maximum; but it seems safe to advocate that those earning average or above average incomes in affluent societies, unless they have an unusually large number of dependents or other special needs, ought to give a tenth of their income to reducing absolute poverty. By any reasonable ethical standards this is the minimum we ought to do, and we do wrong if we do less.

In his own words, an ethic that demands a person give everything they earn to save as many people as they possibly can is an ethic for saints and heroes. I believe he chooses a figure of around 5-10% as a good, practical, if arbitrarily selected number that should be accessible to most people.

(I probably would have given more if it weren't for the $30K medical bill in February which wiped out my savings. I suppose you could call it an involuntary donation.)
 
On a recent trip to Fort Worth for business I ended up eating fish for a few meals because there was nothing on the menu with any substantial calorific value and protein content that didn't have meat in it or on it. Even the bloody pinto beans were prepared in meat juices!

One day I ordered a vegetarian salad for lunch and it had bacon sprinkled all over it.

:boggled:

:)

Well...the nickname for Ft. Worth is "Cow Town". :)
 
But I hope we can all agree that PETA is bonkers.

You nailed it!

Mario Kills Tanooki

Tanooki may be just a "suit" in Mario games, but in real life, tanuki are raccoon dogs who are skinned alive for their fur. By wearing Tanooki, Mario is sending the message that it's OK to wear fur. Play Super Tanooki Skin 2D and help Tanooki reclaim his fur!

The TanukiWP in Mario games is a reference to a mythical, shape-changing raccoon creature, not the wild dog that was later named after the myth. Better not kill any KoopasWP1WP2, you turtle-soup-eating murderers.
 
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You nailed it!

Mario Kills Tanooki



The TanukiWP in Mario games is a reference to a mythical, shape-changing raccoon creature, not the wild dog that was later named after the myth. Better not kill any KoopasWP1WP2, you turtle-soup-eating murderers.

It's even more factually challenged than that.

Taking a swipe at the world's favorite plumber is pretty low, but it's worse in this case because PETA is blatantly lying. As everyone knows from reading the Nintendo Comics System (specifically the "Tanooki Suits Me" story from the Super Mario Bros. line) the Tanooki suit was hand-crafted by a tailor named Tanooki rather than any animal the material was lifted from.

Source.
 
Maybe he was upset because they were artificial bacon bits rather than the real thing?
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080508124521AAQnh8U
Something like that happen to me about two weeks ago.

I went to a bar with some coworkers. There's no much I can eat at this particular bar, except for a nice spinach salad, which comes with chicken and cheese by default. (Speaking for myself, I've had enough salads to be sick of them for the next 12 lifetimes. Spinach salads are still good :) ) I've ordered the meal without meat, cheese, or dressing about half a dozen times in the past, usually they are very polite and honor my request to add strawberries and raspberry vinaigrette on the side.

Got my salad, quick search and smell indicated bacon. I asked the hostess about it, "well it was a pretty plain salad so we added extra bacon bits" --- uh, yeah, returned it in a heartbeat.

I don't care if the bacon bits are vegan or not, I find them thoroughly gross and unpalatable.
 
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Dessi, first you say this:
As a skeptic, I've generally come to the conclusion that there is no credible moral distinction between humans and mentally similar animals, they're moral equals.
... but you then make a moral distinction between humans and animals by saying this:
Animals don't make moral decisions about their diet. (snip) Nevermind the thinly veiled naturalistic fallacy, nevermind the fact that it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to take moral inspiration from animals that can't even make moral decisions in the first place
In order to justify veganism you claim moral equality between humans and "mentally similar animals", but in order to avoid having to apply the same diet standard to animals you claim humans have a moral superiority; by taking the unproven assumption that animals cannot make moral decisions that humans supposedly can. That seems rather contradictory to me.
 
Dessi, first you say this:... but you then make a moral distinction between humans and animals by saying this:In order to justify veganism you claim moral equality between humans and "mentally similar animals", but in order to avoid having to apply the same diet standard to animals you claim humans have a moral superiority; by taking the unproven assumption that animals cannot make moral decisions that humans supposedly can. That seems rather contradictory to me.
Not so much. Rational adults have moral agency, not superiority, in relation to their non-rational human and non-human counterparts who are otherwise in a class of moral patients. Seems to cleanly resolve the contradiction between saying animals and mentally similar humans are moral equals, and simultaneously that there's no basis for taking moral cues about our diet from animals who can't make moral decisions about their own diet in the first place.

And regarding the unproven assumption that animals lack the rationality to make moral decisions about their diet, I don't think I've ever had a discussion of that sort. Seems people on all sides of the animal rights debate agree that animals lack the capacity to make moral decisions about their diet. A large chunk of opposition to animal rights requires that premise to make sense in the first place, for example "they aren't rational / aren't members of the social contract / will never be moral agents, so how do they have rights". I think many animal rights activists support full and equal human rights for the great apes, but I've never seen one say they make moral decisions about their diet. Opponents and proponents are in agreement that animals do not make moral decisions about their diet, and may not have the capacity to do so at all. The interesting discussion is whether this fact reduces animals to the status of moral patients with rights similar to non-rational humans, and whether the arguments against considering animal interests logically extend to human moral patients.

(If animals are moral agents, it would make a very interesting discussion. Can they actually exercise their moral choices in the state of nature, what's the nature and content of their moral systems, do they go through stages of moral development similar to humans? What are the ethical implications of their moral agency: are they first-class persons with a moral status equivalent to rational adult humans, is moral agency a prerequisite for moral consideration, can we use non-rational humans to service the interests of moral agents such as animals and humans? Answers to those questions are speculative without evidence that animals are moral agents, or moot if they aren't.)
 
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