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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Es la casa del Presidente Obama :D

Anyway, back to the original issue...... what do you find so "priceless" about that one line from Knox?




It makes sense to me, but maybe you'd be kind enough to point out exactly what you find so incredible or Oscar-worthy about it.

(Oh, and just FYI, you got the other quote wrong as well: "don't give a damn", not "do not give a damn". Incidentally, powerful producer David O Selznick got the Hollywood Production Code modified to contain a loophole allowing the use of the word "damn" if it was "in a historical context", otherwise the studio would have been either heavily fined or forced to edit out the line.)

I'd also like to know what Pilot found so priceless? I suspect it's a case of dissection of the statement and then taking the components out of context. I.e.,

Original statement;

"Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think."

Translated;

"Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death"

Ah ha! She admits to being involved...

"even though it is contrasting"

She admits she is changing her story -- proof that she is lying.

"are the best truth that I have been able to think."

Clear evidence she is fabricating 'her' truths.

Of course, that's not at all what she is saying with that sentence, but if you want to believe she is guilty, it's not difficult to twist it to suit your needs.

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Oh, and btw.. in the book the work "Frankly" was not used. The movie got it wrong. I guess we can't believe anything Gable ever said either.
 
First and foremost, AK should have lawyered up. Sometimes people criticize the other flatmates for so doing seeing "lawyering up" as a sign of something sinister lurking in the weeds.

Truth is, AK should have lawyered up. The issue is not how I would have worded it - I fully concede that if I had been there enduring what AK endured I would have made the same mistakes: except that I would have lawyered up.

Amanda stated in testimony that she requested a lawyer during questioning and was denied. Machiavelli has told us that under the Italian system she was not entitled to a lawyer until after she was officially a suspect, which according to him did not happen until they pressured her into making the statements she would later retract.

Being a vulnerable 20-year old from a foreign country is, excuse me for saying it, not an excuse as much as that is true.

Excuse me for saying this, but innocence is and always should be an excuse. There is no excuse for the law enforcement behaving as indicated. I agree that it would have been wiser for her to be wiser, but she wasn't and she was treated wrongly. Law exists to protect those who cannot protect themselves from the aggression of others, and to correct the balance when those boundaries are passed. Amanda deserved better from those whose job it was to protect and serve justice. You deserve better. I deserve better. Even a hardened criminal deserves better.

A lawyer would not have allowed AK to write this: "I stand by my statements that I made last night about events that could have taken place in my home with Patrik, but I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house."

I agree. However she was not afforded a lawyer at that point, even though when she wrote that statement she was already being detained against her will and had been for several hours. Her request for a lawyer didn't magically disappear between when she asked for one and when she wrote the statement. The fact that she supposedly was in some legal grey area according to Machiavelli does not change this. Even if she had been guilty, there is no excuse for being held against ones will and subjected to the techniques she described being subjected to in the quasi-suspect but not entitled to lawyer legal position. I tend to subscribe to the idea that this is in fact not the way the legal system is intended to function, but I will grant to Mach due to his much closer knowledge of how Italy does things, that this is the way it is done, even if it is a broken system.

In 20/20 hindsight both you and I know what's going on here, but at the time this is equivocating and unclear.

This is not in fact equivocating. Equivocating is intentionally trading on the ambiguity of a word or concept that has two meanings, such as confusing public interest in a trial with the trial being in the public interest. It is unclear superficially, and should be treated as such. The realization that she has two contrasting views, one of which seems more real to her is clearly expressed, and she states as well that she does not believe she can be used to condemn anyone, further underscoring her confused state of mind. The inability to articulate something due to inexperience is not the same as intentionally misleading or trying to cover up a discrepancy. This is all that's needed to see that she did not lie, and did not slander.

Even Amanda gives them ammunition to distrust her words: I'm very confused at this time. My head is full of contrasting ideas and I know I can be frustrating to work with for this reason. But I also want to tell the truth as best I can. Everything I have said in regards to my involvement in Meredith's death, even though it is contrasting, are the best truth that I have been able to think." (Underlining is done by me for emphasis, not part of the original.)

Amanda is saying everything, not just the one thing that innocenters say is the reality (only knowable in 20/20 hindsight).

Amanda is really saying nothing of value here, except that she is trying her best to do what she believes is right. She is saying "I know what I said is contrasting, but it is the best I can do at being honest now." She recognizes that her statements have no consistency at that point, but is still adhering to a principle of honesty. This is a quality that one should be praised for, not convicted for.

So how would I have worded it? Knowing what I know now with my own 20/20 hindsight I would have clammed up and not said a thing. Her explanations in the Nov 6th and 7th missives only confused matters all the more.

This is a case of damned if you do damned if you don't and I really don't think any one of us knows exactly what we would have done in her shoes. From what I have been able to glean, she is obsessive about writing her way through difficult situations. There is nothing criminal about this, even if it leads to a bunch of rubbish and confusing statements. Being human, she did not have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight until afterwards, so her attempts to clarify are a reasonable and honest way of approaching the situation she was in.

She needed a lawyer to guide her through this.

Agreed 100%. She was however denied one when she asked. Hiring one before this all went down is a coulda shoulda woulda hindsight kinda thing.

It's the reason why I say she's convictable but not sentencable. I bow to others who know Italian law better than I (I know nothing about Italian law!), but if it were my court and my rules, I'd convict her to make a statement, but not sentence her because of all the stuff that garden variety innocenters bring to this debate.

Huh? There is no such thing as a conviction without a sentence. That's like saying a bank account without a balance. If something is criminally convictable, a crime has to have taken place, perpetrated by the the one convicted. Having the sentence suspended or made light does not change that a conviction by itself is a sentence. It does not make a statement to say "you're guilty, but I'm gonna let you go." Especially when she is in a situation that she bears no responsibility for. Lets look at all the points where this could have stopped short of a conviction:

0. If Amanda had lawyered up and fled the country. However, by and large, only those who believe they should fear law enforcement flee. Thus Amanda, having no culpability would have no valid reason to lawyer up and leave. Saying she should have done that is tacitly admitting that the law enforcement is failing at its primary duty to protect the innocent and serve justice.

1. If Investigators relied on actual evidence before making judgments in regards to her complicity in the matter. Had they not believed they had the ability to discern guilt from socially awkward behavior, they would not have focused on her in the first place.

2. If Investigators waited for actual evidence to be analyzed before deciding to try to break the alibi's of the two. Had they done this they would have fingered Guede rather than Patrick in the interogation, and most likely Amanda would not have been able to generate flashes of seeing him. Even if she had, they would have had actual evidence, not confused dreamlike statements with which to hold him, and there would be no reason for them to focus back on her.

3. If Investigators had decided to check for alibi's for Patrick before arresting him, and held the statements Amanda made to the police in her attempts to help solve the crime in check until they could be verified. Patrick would have suffered no damages, and there would have been no cause for conviction.

There are 4 points at which the train could have been stopped. One requires a world-wise Amanda to take actions that while prudent, are not required for her to be innocent and blameless. Three require Law Enforcement to do their job. I don't see how you can argue that any of this leads to the view that Amanda should face conviction for her statements.

Suppose it is against the law to yell fire in a crowded theatre with the intent to cause mischief. Someone tells you that they have seen fire, and ask you to raise the alarm. You're not sure whether you smell smoke, but they tell you maybe you just don't remember what smoke smells like, that that smell you're pretty sure is popcorn is too burned to be popcorn. You start imagining and pretty soon you can smell it, you're not 100% sure that it's from fire, but you're worried if you don't raise the alarm, people will die. The person who tells you they saw the fire is someone whom you've been raised to trust on that issue due to their being a fire marshal. So you say, "I think I may smell smoke, so its possible that there is a fire" to the person next to you. Gotcha! You're now convictable for the crime of yelling fire in a crowded theatre! Where's the justice in that? And to support that conviction, we have you stating, "I didn't lie when I said I thought it was possible that there was a fire. But now I know that I can't have known whether or not there was a fire, because I remember that I really smelled only popcorn instead." See, you're a liar! You stated that you didn't lie when you confused the popcorn smell with smoke, so you're a liar! You must therefore be guilty of the malicious crime of yelling fire in a crowded theatre. (We'll drop the arson charges because we've determined that there was no arson.)





I agree that AK is a victim of her own innocence. I can't remember who wrote it, but innocent people mistakenly believe that their innocence is a shield. That reasonable people will somehow be able to intuit it. Amanda was naively trying to be helpful and it backfired in the worst way imaginable.

It's not guilty people who need lawyers, it's the innocent ones.

But the law is the law is the law, and needs to be administered evenly - naivety is not an excuse.

Naivety is not a crime either. Nor should one be held in anyway accountable for officers of the law exploiting one's naivety and honesty to further their own careers, and abusing one's trust in them, inflicting harm to others in one's name.

Furthermore, law without interpretation is meaningless. Law is not concrete. There are specific principles, but law itself is constantly changing due to different interpretations of different judges. It is not unreasonable to argue that the application of a law should be tempered by an understanding of the intent behind the law, and the appropriateness and justifiability of applying it to the situation. In this case, it is reasonable to argue that Amanda was not the cause of the accusation against Patrick, because she did not suggest it. Furthermore, the language of the statements that were admissible in court on the criminal proceedings made it clear that Amanda was not sure whether or not and to what degree Patrick was involved, thus was not actually stating that he had committed the crime. The other two statements, not being written in her hand, and not being written in her native fluent tongue at the time, cannot be accurately ascribed to her, and since they were ruled inadmissible by the supreme court due to being improperly obtained, should not have been considered in the criminal slander case. They were brought into the evidence by a technicality because the civil damages case was tried concurrently with the criminal case. Amanda therefore was not convictable for slander due to the fact that the statements that were admissible for the criminal portion of the trial/appeal did not clearly state that she knew with any degree of certainty that Patrick was the killer, furthermore, they clearly stated the opposite.

By this reasoning, which Hellmann did not choose to pursue, there was no criminal defamation. Patrick should instead have gone after the police for defamation for their actions in addition to wrongful imprisonment, and abuse of office charges should be levied against whoever kept his establishment closed for long enough to cause him financial hardship after his release.

Remember, murder is not murder if there was not intent to kill. It is manslaughter at best if the intent is lacking. Slander is not slander if there is no intent behind it. Especially if she is not the originator of the statement, but was instead pressured by law enforcement to come up with a meaningless and confusing dream that might have indicated someone was the murderer, but seams less real than what that person originally stated and still believes, that she has no clue.

Now that I've argued why she's not convictable, I'll attempt to construct the reasoning for the conviction: Amanda has served 4 years, but rather than admit that justice is flawed in Italy, it would be better to establish that she partially deserved the 4 years. After all, it has been intimated, and given my knowledge of human nature, I have no reason to doubt, that there is a level of pride and camaraderie between judges, and therefore a bone needed to be tossed. So to back this up in his motivations, my guess is that Hellmann will follow the following reasoning.

1. While Amanda did make the first two statments under duress, and they are not admissible, they are admissible in as much as she refers to them in her second two (voluntary) statements. Thus we are left with Patrick may have killed Meridith. Italy does not seem to have the same concept as the US regarding the need to discard evidence that has been gathered through illegal means to discourage police from using illegal means - thus the fruit of the illegal interrogation (the attempts made by Amanda naively to clarify what would not have been necessary to clarify had the first interrogation been conducted legally) are accepted as grounds for the slanderous statement.

2. Hellmann will not follow the line of reasoning that Amanda was retracting in her second statement when she said she could not have known who was the murderer - instead he will focus on her statement that she was not lying when she said he might be involved. This will confirm that Amanda was at the time implicating Patrick.

3. Hellmann will not note in his motivations that police should have adequately checked Patrick's alibi prior to arresting him given the flimsiness of the statements used.

4. Instead, he will note Amanda's statements of guilt in other testimony/overheard conversations/letters/wherever (forgot exactly where this came in) where she expresses feeling bad that Patrick was being held on account of her. This will establish that to feel guilt for an action, one must feel responsible, and if she feels responsible, she must have known that her statements would result in this outcome.

5. Thus, she made statements that damaged the good reputation of a good man knowing that those statements might lead to a loss of reputation, without regard for that loss of reputation. Those statements turned out to be false, thus she was responsible and accepted guilt for the result of the statements. 3 years.

Legally, both points of view are reasonably robust interpretations of law given the evidence that is considered, and where the inspiration for each turn is taken. However, I believe that the scenario I outlined that I think Hellmann will follow to uphold this conviction misses the spirit of what law is intended to accomplish, and that the responsibility for Patrick's problems lies with the Perugian law enforcement and not with Amanda. Thus justice and law requires that she not be convicted or sentenced for this.
 
But the law is the law is the law, and needs to be administered evenly - naivety is not an excuse.

Would an IQ of 50 be an excuse?
Would having a mental breakdown be an excuse?
Is there anything that would be an excuse?

How do you know that she didn't ask for legal assistance the night of the interrogation? Did the police offer it? Did they tell her in Italy it would go far worse for her if she had a lawyer? We really don't know.

The question for me is, why didn't Raffaele's dad insist on them being represented?

Also, how could Mignini allow her not to be represented.

And the question I ask all that believe the statements should be held against her, what did the police chief mean when he said that " we questioned her until she buckled and told us what we knew to be correct"?

I guess in Italy they can question someone under extreme conditions and then call them liars.
 
Would an IQ of 50 be an excuse?
Would having a mental breakdown be an excuse?
Is there anything that would be an excuse?

How do you know that she didn't ask for legal assistance the night of the interrogation? Did the police offer it? Did they tell her in Italy it would go far worse for her if she had a lawyer? We really don't know.

The question for me is, why didn't Raffaele's dad insist on them being represented?

Also, how could Mignini allow her not to be represented.

And the question I ask all that believe the statements should be held against her, what did the police chief mean when he said that " we questioned her until she buckled and told us what we knew to be correct"?

I guess in Italy they can question someone under extreme conditions and then call them liars.
I think what Bill really meant to say, in keeping with the rest of what he said, is that "there is no excuse for law enforcement to prey on naivety." Am I correct, Bill?
 
Amanda stated in testimony that she requested a lawyer during questioning and was denied. Machiavelli has told us that under the Italian system she was not entitled to a lawyer until after she was officially a suspect, which according to him did not happen until they pressured her into making the statements she would later retract.
There is little for me to disagree with in your long and thoughful post. I will only add that when AK requested a lawyer, that was in the midst of the interrogation. It is one of the reasons why the interrogation was, and should have been, ruled inadmissible.

The problem is with the two subsequent "clarifications", done freely. I think you've nailed it with your observation below, but still, when given a chance to clarify, AK fudged. Nothing you've said about her right to a lawyer at interrogation changes that once clear of it, she continued to be cloudy. And she wrote about it.

I agree with all the "ifs" "ands" and "buts" you raise, except that she did not avail herself of the right to have a lawyer, when she could have (ideally) taken her writings to a lawyer and asked, "Do you think I should let the police see these?" The answer would have been "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" To summarize, she was free to summon a lawyer one she was a suspect and did not. That could be out of naivety, but it is the reason why in my country the police have to be OVERT in telling an accused, "Look stupid, you need a lawyer!"

I'm not going to deal with everything you raise, because on the whole I am unconvinced as to why this is not convictable, ie. that Helmman and his panel got it right. I guess you'll have to sue me.....

But I will cherry-pcik points of interest.....

Excuse me for saying this, but innocence is and always should be an excuse. There is no excuse for the law enforcement behaving as indicated. I agree that it would have been wiser for her to be wiser, but she wasn't and she was treated wrongly. Law exists to protect those who cannot protect themselves from the aggression of others, and to correct the balance when those boundaries are passed. Amanda deserved better from those whose job it was to protect and serve justice. You deserve better. I deserve better. Even a hardened criminal deserves better.
You're excused. Yet, I can only repeat, the impact of notes #3 and #4 (well, maybe not so much #4), is that AK is freely and without coersion volunteering information which she admits is conflicting information. At the end of the day, yes, innocence is a defence (!), but in her own hand she's fess'ing up to being part of the confusion.

This is a case of damned if you do damned if you don't and I really don't think any one of us knows exactly what we would have done in her shoes. From what I have been able to glean, she is obsessive about writing her way through difficult situations. There is nothing criminal about this, even if it leads to a bunch of rubbish and confusing statements. Being human, she did not have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight until afterwards, so her attempts to clarify are a reasonable and honest way of approaching the situation she was in.

I'll let you draw sinister inferences about all the stuff I don't reply to, but I agree with you on the obsessive writing bit.... in 99.9999% of human interactions, writing and journaling is a good exercise, good for the soul.

No, there is nothing criminal about being an obsessive writer, unless the content of that writing muddles one's alleged involvement in a crime.

If I was accused of shoplifting, and I wrote to the store manager, "They say they have evidence against me that I stole from your store. I stand by my statement with your store security that I was in your store, and that I had your stuff - even though they in fact did not find any of your stuff in my possession...." Then added, "But I am confused on this point and to be honest I admit that what I am writing is contradictory, but I was stressed by the behaviour of your store security, and now that I remember, I now know it is a fact that I didn't take any of your stuff..."

....I think the store manager would be grossly suspicious that I had, in fact, taken some stuff, and was .... well, you get my drift.

I am not sure how much more I will say on the calunnia charge. It tends to go around in circles and lands nowhere. I am satisfied that I've had a chance to have my say.

And, yes, you can have a bank account with zero balance. And, yes, in my part of the world (where I have done court accompaniment with witnesses to a prosecution's case), I have seen plenty of examples where the "just" thing is to convict, and then immediately release with no sentence because of the circumstances unique to the case.

Are there any lawyers out there who can confirm this?
 
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Hi, Bill Williams. IIRC neither Amanda, nor Raffaele was allowed to see their lawyers for 2 to 3 days after they were arrested. There was no asking a lawyer for advice, they were denied access.
 
[long thoughtful post suggesting that he might know the answer to my question]

So the original statements by Knox recorded by the police were not admissible against Knox for any of the criminal charges including calunnia charge?

Were the original statements admissible against Knox for the civil portion of the trial?

And a comment: I wonder if there is a language issue here. Knox says she didn't lie meaning to her she didn't intentionally misrepresent the facts. But the Italian courts seem to have taken the statement to mean that she believed what she had said previously was still correct.
 
...The "The Experiments" shows, including the one about false confessions that I referenced yesterday, are straight studies in human psychology...There's no deception involved in the way the programmes are presented to the viewer...

...I would assert that Brown draws a clear and well-articulated line between his illusion/deception work and his investigation/exposition work. I am highly confident that the outcomes in his "The Experiments" shows were real and involved no instances of audience deception, secret (and hidden) techniques...

Azrael 5...are the voices of reason, logic and experience in that thread...

Just to let you know, Azrael 5 says Derren Brown is a magician and all his shows (including "The Experiments") obviously involve deception and are not meant to be taken seriously. And that anyone who can't see this is an *****.

And although his obnoxious tone is entirely gratuitous, his underlying point is correct.

Which is why Derren's ersatz false confession "experiment" really should no place in any legitimate discussion about actual false confessions (as, for example, occurred in the Knox case).
 
You're excused. Yet, I can only repeat, the impact of notes #3 and #4 (well, maybe not so much #4), is that AK is freely and without coersion volunteering information which she admits is conflicting information. At the end of the day, yes, innocence is a defence (!), but in her own hand she's fess'ing up to being part of the confusion.

I guess that I don't think sitting in jail in solitary after intense questioning with threats and hitting, is without coercion. She was told and verified by the police chief's comment the next day, that she needed to tell them what they knew to be correct or she would not be able to see her family again etc.

You want that she stand up, pound the table and say Patrick is innocent and all is clear to me now, let me free.

She did the best in that situation and being denied a lawyer is just plain wrong.

ETA - so a person shot during a wild gun battle, though unarmed, would be admitting to being part of the battle because he was shot?
 
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If I was accused of shoplifting, and I wrote to the store manager, "They say they have evidence against me that I stole from your store. I stand by my statement with your store security that I was in your store, and that I had your stuff - even though they in fact did not find any of your stuff in my possession...." Then added, "But I am confused on this point and to be honest I admit that what I am writing is contradictory, but I was stressed by the behaviour of your store security, and now that I remember, I now know it is a fact that I didn't take any of your stuff..."

If I were the store manager, I'd go to the security people and ask them if in fact no merchandise had been found on the person. When the answer was no, I'd ask if they told the person that in fact they had found merchandise and the answer was yes, I'd tell to release the person and fire the lot of them.
 
if i were the store manager, i'd go to the security people and ask them if in fact no merchandise had been found on the person. When the answer was no, i'd ask if they told the person that in fact they had found merchandise and the answer was yes, i'd tell to release the person and fire the lot of them.
Bravo.
 
I think what Bill really meant to say, in keeping with the rest of what he said, is that "there is no excuse for law enforcement to prey on naivety." Am I correct, Bill?
Nope! Sorry. I.Q.'s of 50 are people who are diverted from the criminal system, so there are "excuses" if that's the word of the day here.

But not naivety. AK was really trying to help out, and as said above, her very innocence was the shield she thought she had. Being someone who "writes her way to understanding" is in 99.99999% of human endeavours a good thing..... here it was disasterous, and here we are 4 years later arguing about it.

It's not a crime to be 20, naive, in a foreign country which has very different rules of criminal procedure than what we see on CSI or American court programs. Yet when you're in a foreign country, it is a little too late to try to learn the intricasies of a foreign system when you're interviewed by police.

Rather than looking backward and saying with 20/20 hindsight what a foreign student in Perugia should have done, my real interest is this.....

For all of us going forward, if we are being interviewed in a criminal case, for heaven's sake, take advantage of your right to remain silent, and only answer the questions put to you.

Eg. "What's your name?" "Bill." Not: "What's your name?" "Bill and I have no idea why you're questioning me." Or this: "What were you doing at the crime scene?" Ans: "Do I need a lawyer here?" Not: "What were you doing at the crime scene?" "Listen, I can explain.... you see, it's like this...................................................."

I agree - the Reid Technique of interrogation has its fingerprints all over AK's interrogation. It blurs the boundaries between what Steve Moore calls, "elucidation" vs. "coersion".

With all due respect to Steve Moore who knows TONS more than I do, I still do not think the distinction between "elucidation" and "coersion" in the real live conference room is all that clear.

But even that is not what is at issue in the calunnia charge against AK, as it relates to Lumumba.

The simple fact is that there are two highly prejudicial memorandums out there, in AK's hand, that at the very least, blurs the issue in relation to Lumumba.

Regardless of what Lumumba has done since, AK's writing played a role in causing the original distress. Probably not the central role, that is obvious - I think all the reply-posters do is default to the central role and the central players, as if that mitigates the role AK's writings played.

It's part and parcel, so I find myself unable to disagree with nearly all the rebuttals here.

But the simple fact is that the writings are there, voluntarily submitted as if to be helpful. Is that naive? Gargantuanly-so.

Going forward, don't try to be helpful when you're the one theyre slapping on the back of the head. Clam up.

Or become a Gregorian chanter... "I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer. Boy, isn't that interesting that you think I'll do 30 years if I have a lawyer, but I want a lawyer."

I bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that God-forbid lightning strikes twice and AK finds herself in a Seattle police station being interviewed as a potential witness, she'll say....

"Sorry, boys and girls. This time I'm getting a lawyer. We're now going to see how long I can sit here without saying anything, and if I need to pee on my shoes to wait you people out, you'd better get some galoushes. How about a few Beatle songs......"
 
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Nope! Sorry. I.Q.'s of 50 are people who are diverted from the criminal system, so there are "excuses" if that's the word of the day here.

But not naivety. AK was really trying to help out, and as said above, her very innocence was the shield she thought she had. Being someone who "writes her way to understanding" is in 99.99999% of human endeavours a good thing..... here it was disasterous, and here we are 4 years later arguing about it.

It's not a crime to be 20, naive, in a foreign country which has very different rules of criminal procedure than what we see on CSI or American court programs. Yet when you're in a foreign country, it is a little too late to try to learn the intricasies of a foreign system when you're interviewed by police.

Rather than looking backward and saying with 20/20 hindsight what a foreign student in Perugia should have done, my real interest is this.....

For all of us going forward, if we are being interviewed in a criminal case, for heaven's sake, take advantage of your right to remain silent, and only answer the questions put to you.

Eg. "What's your name?" "Bill." Not: "What's your name?" "Bill and I have no idea why you're questioning me." Or this: "What were you doing at the crime scene?" Ans: "Do I need a lawyer here?" Not: "What were you doing at the crime scene?" "Listen, I can explain.... you see, it's like this...................................................."

I agree - the Reid Technique of interrogation has its fingerprints all over AK's interrogation. It blurs the boundaries between what Steve Moore calls, "elucidation" vs. "coersion".

With all due respect to Steve Moore who knows TONS more than I do, I still do not think the distinction between "elucidation" and "coersion" in the real live conference room is all that clear.

But even that is not what is at issue in the calunnia charge against AK, as it relates to Lumumba.

The simple fact is that there are two highly prejudicial memorandums out there, in AK's hand, that at the very least, blurs the issue in relation to Lumumba.

Regardless of what Lumumba has done since, AK's writing played a role in causing the original distress. Probably not the central role, that is obvious - I think all the reply-posters do is default to the central role and the central players, as if that mitigates the role AK's writings played.

It's part and parcel, so I find myself unable to disagree with nearly all the rebuttals here.

But the simple fact is that the writings are there, voluntarily submitted as if to be helpful. Is that naive? Gargantuanly-so.

Going forward, don't try to be helpful when you're the one theyre slapping on the back of the head. Clam up.

Or become a Gregorian chanter... "I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer. Boy, isn't that interesting that you think I'll do 30 years if I have a lawyer, but I want a lawyer."

I bet all the money in my pocket against all the money in your pocket that God-forbid lightning strikes twice and AK finds herself in a Seattle police station being interviewed as a potential witness, she'll say....

"Sorry, boys and girls. This time I'm getting a lawyer. We're now going to see how long I can sit here without saying anything, and if I need to pee on my shoes to wait you people out, you'd better get some galoushes. How about a few Beatle songs......"
Well stated , and I think a lot of us will be saying this if "god" forbid we wind up in such a situation for whatever reason....
 
I'm not going to deal with everything you raise, because on the whole I am unconvinced as to why this is not convictable, ie. that Helmman and his panel got it right. I guess you'll have to sue me.....

I have no plans to sue. I'll leave that to Mignini and the Perugian authorities. The courtroom is not my battlefield, as I have seen far too many atrocities committed in the name of justice to want to avail myself of it for such purposes. I respect your not wanting to rehash arguments that I've seen you express in detail here and in IIP. I understand your point of view, but I disagree on that one point.

I also will cherry-pick points of interest.....

You're excused. Yet, I can only repeat, the impact of notes #3 and #4 (well, maybe not so much #4), is that AK is freely and without coersion volunteering information which she admits is conflicting information. At the end of the day, yes, innocence is a defence (!), but in her own hand she's fess'ing up to being part of the confusion.
Here's where I think the disagreement lies. I don't believe that these two statements are truely given freely and without coersion. Remember she is innocent, and is now being held against her will for a crime she did not commit, as a result of statements that were gleaned by the police by illegal means. Like trapped prey that may injure themselves attempting to get out of a snare when they are "free" to sit in captivity, she hurts her case by attempting to write her way through the unjust position she finds herself in, all the while attempting to be as honest and forthcoming as possible. That is why she stated she had nothing to fear but lies. Unfortunately, she also should have been afraid of the overzealousness and incompetence of those she trusted to do right in the situation, but that's another hindsight 20/20 thing.

One more point about this: Amanda seems to have a strong sense of justice, and a desire to do what's right and be honest. Each of us is only as free as we let ourselves be. Once put in the position of having produced statements that she confusedly believed at the time, but subsequently can't reconcile to what she now knows to be true, she is compelled to write about it. She can't let it lie. That is why she didn't leave in Perugia the first place at the suggestion of her family - she felt a need to see justice. So she reached out to the face of justice - the law enforcement officials who had put her in the situation to begin with by their illegal interrogation - in an attempt to resolve the conflict. Yes its true she stops writing explainations and talking about it outside of testimony after finally getting a consultation with her lawyer, but she was doing the best she could in the situation she was in, and honesty compelled her to admit that what she had stated was confusing, but that it was the best she could come up with.

I'm technically free to stop breathing, in a legal sense of the word free, but its not something I'm capable of doing.



I'll let you draw sinister inferences about all the stuff I don't reply to

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I don't think there's anything sinister about what you do or do not reply to. I believe my few short posts have established that by and large I believe in looking at the substance of an argument rather than character of the person arguing - with the exception of a slight jab at Pilot I couldn't resist after noticing frequent use of "quotes" in his presumably sarcastic comments. True to form he responded, although I don't think I actually accused him of the offenses he things I was implying. I'll probably refrain from that type of activity again. With that clarified, back to the meat of your response:



but I agree with you on the obsessive writing bit.... in 99.9999% of human interactions, writing and journaling is a good exercise, good for the soul.

No, there is nothing criminal about being an obsessive writer, unless the content of that writing muddles one's alleged involvement in a crime.
Here I think you got the gist of what I was suggesting without getting the .0001% that makes the most difference. In law, it is important to establish fact beyond reasonable doubt. This standard, recently codified into law in Italy, and held to in most of the rest of the Western world, is precisely because one can't convict on the base of muddling, nor is there anything criminal about the inconclusiveness or contradictions within a witness statement or testimony. Criminality in almost all forms requires a mens rea - intent or a degree of extreme negligence so high that it cannot be excused by a reasonable person. Amanda may have been slightly negligent in her first two statements to police, understandable due to the conditions under which they were extracted, but I would argue that while ill-advised, there was nothing negligent in making an attempt to clarify after the fact as the confusion faded. Intent to do harm was lacking the whole time, her motivation was seeking justice and being honest, not putting Patrick through the ringer. The cops did that, and their attitude shows this when they made racial remarks and hit him while arresting him. (I believe Patrick's first story on this, as he has more of a reason to lie about it not happening - due to overzealous slander laws - than he does to lie about it in the first place. By and large, first statements of individuals tend to have more accuracies than later statements made after the consequences of statements become clear. Some would use this point to argue that this tends to prove Amanda's statements on the 5th are more true than her retracting, except that her first statements to police were that she was with Raffaele, and it was only after being threatened, hit, and lied to that she imagined a different scenario. By the same token I believe Rudy's first statement that Amanda was not there much more than his much later statement that a silhouette that could only have been her was there. Indeed as Dr. Kassam's (sp?) research seems to indicate, the longer you talk to someone, the more likely they are to make a false statement or confession when they are innocent, even without duress.)

If I was accused of shoplifting, and I wrote to the store manager, "They say they have evidence against me that I stole from your store. I stand by my statement with your store security that I was in your store, and that I had your stuff - even though they in fact did not find any of your stuff in my possession...." Then added, "But I am confused on this point and to be honest I admit that what I am writing is contradictory, but I was stressed by the behaviour of your store security, and now that I remember, I now know it is a fact that I didn't take any of your stuff..."

....I think the store manager would be grossly suspicious that I had, in fact, taken some stuff, and was .... well, you get my drift.
I think this is oversimplifying to the point of missing some of the nuance. I agree that the store manager would be suspicious, but once surveilance tapes emerged that showed that you had not in fact attempted to conceal anything on your person, you would be free to go. You would not be subject to a penalty for muddling it even if they spent overtime on the employees who reviewed the tape. Also, Amanda did not say that she stood by her statement that she had your stuff - she stated that she stood by her statement that another person may have been shoplifting. She never admitted to ever taking part in the crime. Her best imagined truth was covering her ears in the kitchen because she could imagine Meredith's screams in her head, and confused flashes of Patrick at the piazza and with Meredith in her room. The most this does is potentially make her a witness to a crime committed by someone else, but such a questionable witness as to not have real credibility. She was fed the belief that the reason she did not have a coherent memory of it was that she was traumatized, made plausible by the interpreter's story of suffering the same type of event. If you can't make sense of something you're presented with, and someone offers what may seem to you as a plausible explanation of it, it is human nature to accept it, since we always try to explain things. When discrepancies later cause that explanation to fail in our minds, it does not mean that we were being deceitful in trying to accept the explanation that we now reject.
I am not sure how much more I will say on the calunnia charge. It tends to go around in circles and lands nowhere. I am satisfied that I've had a chance to have my say.
I think the position you're taking is a valid point were it not for the injustice of the whole situation Amanda was faced with. I can only excuse Hellmann for supporting the slander charge due to the fact that he essentially gave her time served. He did not give her time in the first place, and that is a common tactic I've heard of done by judges who think it would not be right to keep someone any longer in jail for something, but they're trying to make a statement that the behavior in question is not socially acceptable. It's almost like a plea-bargain done retroactively. Maybe that's the point you're making. I however take issue with the path that was reached to get here, since the supposed slander would not have happened had the appropriate officials done their job and upheld the universal principles of justice in the first place.

I probably would not object so strongly to the slander charge being upheld if Knox had originated the name of Patrick herself without the police pushing her to it in the way she described in her testimony, just to get them off her back. However, having read her full testimony and multiple sources on the matter, and knowing what I know about other parts of the case, I completely believe her that the police suggested his name upon finding and misunderstanding the text message. I think its very telling that she stuck with her description of the interrogation from the very beginning, attempting to excuse the behavior of police the morning after, while she still had faith in justice, then becoming more and more bitter about it as the years behind bars took their toll on her. I also think it is very telling that she was/is being separately accused of slander for telling her version of how the interrogation happened. That's pretty vindictive of the supposed agents of justice if you ask me, and further proof why the whole concept of slander/defamation needs a thorough revision in Italy.

And, yes, you can have a bank account with zero balance. And, yes, in my part of the world (where I have done court accompaniment with witnesses to a prosecution's case), I have seen plenty of examples where the "just" thing is to convict, and then immediately release with no sentence because of the circumstances unique to the case.

Are there any lawyers out there who can confirm this?

I think you missed my point here: I was saying that a conviction is a type of sentence. The person has to live with the fact that a court of law has deemed their behavior to be criminal, when they believe it to be fully justified by circumstance and were attempting to do the right thing. This is a perversion of the universal concept of justice, even if it is legally permissible. Especially when the situation would never have occurred had those entrusted with ensuring justice done their jobs in the first place.

What I have seen as you described is when someone actually has violated some law that they did not know about, or knowingly broken a law believing that it would serve the greater good. Then they often are sentenced to either probation or community service, or if they've been held awaiting judgement, sentenced to time served. If that is your position on this, I can understand it, but not agree with it, since I think the law is too vague to begin with, too overreaching, and too rife for abuse by those in power if what she did truly violates it.

And a bank account balance of zero or negative is still a balance. I said an account with no balance, not an account with zero balance. But now I could be accused of mincing words. ;) <---first emoticon use on this board fyi.
 
Well stated , and I think a lot of us will be saying this if "god" forbid we wind up in such a situation for whatever reason....
You see, I don't think AK is lucky to be home in the "justice" sense of lucky, I think she's lucky to be home right now in the sense of what was originally lined up against her: the Tabloid media and a prosecutor who (I believe) really does believe Hallowe'en is real.

Not to mention an original court who sees nothing wrong with collecting KEY EVIDENCE 6 weeks after the fact, and only then finding the most miniscule of low-copy DNA on a bra-clasp in a room which resembled a war-zone... you get the drift.

If it were me, I'd pay the fine owing to Lumumba, and get on with my life. If all we're arguing about is the calunnia conviction, then saints be praised.

Considering what could have been a slap on the back of the head is the best cure for naivety anyone in that position ever had.... considering what could have been.

Pay the fine. Settle accounts, even the outstanding unfair-accounts. By the time she's 50, this will be long since deemed as history. The sooner it's put behind her the better. The fine is only money. Compared to what could have been...... you get the drift.
 
Nope! Sorry. I.Q.'s of 50 are people who are diverted from the criminal system, so there are "excuses" if that's the word of the day here.

I think you brought up the 'E' word. They are diverted because they are unable to understand what's going on, much like Amanda.

For all of us going forward, if we are being interviewed in a criminal case, for heaven's sake, take advantage of your right to remain silent, and only answer the questions put to you.

According to Mach one does not have the right to remain silent until one is declared a suspect. Also, one is not entitled to a lawyer for some time period.

The simple fact is that there are two highly prejudicial memorandums out there, in AK's hand, that at the very least, blurs the issue in relation to Lumumba.

I just don't see the ones in her own hand as highly prejudicial.

Regardless of what Lumumba has done since, AK's writing played a role in causing the original distress.

He had already been arrested.

But the simple fact is that the writings are there, voluntarily submitted as if to be helpful. Is that naive? Gargantuanly-so.

Going forward, don't try to be helpful when you're the one theyre slapping on the back of the head. Clam up.

Or become a Gregorian chanter... "I want a lawyer, I want a lawyer. Boy, isn't that interesting that you think I'll do 30 years if I have a lawyer, but I want a lawyer."

I think you are naive and will excuse you. :)

"Sorry, boys and girls. This time I'm getting a lawyer. We're now going to see how long I can sit here without saying anything, and if I need to pee on my shoes to wait you people out, you'd better get some galoushes. How about a few Beatle songs......"

Maybe I'll cancel that excuse.
 
So the original statements by Knox recorded by the police were not admissible against Knox for any of the criminal charges including calunnia charge?

Were the original statements admissible against Knox for the civil portion of the trial?

And a comment: I wonder if there is a language issue here. Knox says she didn't lie meaning to her she didn't intentionally misrepresent the facts. But the Italian courts seem to have taken the statement to mean that she believed what she had said previously was still correct.

Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding of this case that the criminal charges, 5 charges in total, since they related to the same criminal sequence of events would have been tried using the same rules of evidence. The civil trial was not being ruled on when the SC ruled the 2 statements inadmissible, and since unless there is a rule stating otherwise Italian law requires all evidence and all witnesses be considered, they were considered for the civil case. Hence a technicality. Probably not one envisioned by those who codified the laws in the first place, but legal theories the world over are rife with cases where an unusual and unjust application of a law intended to do one thing is used to do something completely different, and someone somewhere justifies it. You have only to look back through this thread to see how there are cases where citizens of a country can be denied their basic rights in the form of being subjected to double jeopardy in another country, and this is condoned by the extradition decision because it rules that it is only dealing with whether or not the person leave the country, not with the matter of whether or not the person will be subject to a violation of their rights within the country if they are taken to another country against their will. That made a lot more sense in my mind before I typed it but I hope you get the drift.


I believe language/culture issues are the defining issues of this case. You certainly hit on a good point there. Amanda's text message idiom was misunderstood for starters, her behavioral differences regarding hygiene were different, her reactions were different than expected. Her understanding of Italian at the start was so rudimentary that it is easy to see how the statements she describes agreeing to in her testimony became the travesty that is those first two statements. She had no control over how her responses were presented back to the police by her interpreter, who admitted to taking some unorthodox measures to get her to comply with what the police wanted her to admit to (the whole trauma/repressed memory thing). The email about her thinking it would be wrong to say she could kill for a pizza given the circumstances, translated in Italian media as her being able to literally kill for a pizza.

I've noticed one of Machiavelli's main themes here is that what Knox said was proven to be untrue therefore she lied. And she could only lie if she was guilty. Therefore she is guilty. Unfortunately that is not how Americans that I know understand the word lie. A lie is an intentional deception here. In other words, without the intent to deceive, a lie cannot exist. Furthermore, Machiavelli has expressed that a lie by omission is not always in fact a lie - look at his statements regarding shopkeepers responding "nothing" when asked what they remember only to step forward after thinking about it a year. In America, we would view it by and large as suspect if someone said "nothing" then later clarified it to something. We would prefer people to say "I don't recall" an admission that there may be something that could be recalled later, because to say nothing when there may in fact be something would be an intentional deceit to us.

Note that I am not trying to say that my impression of Machiavelli's cultural differences to what I have observed in America are in any way truely representative of the differences between our cultures, but it is sort of an impression I have.
 
Just to let you know, Azrael 5 says Derren Brown is a magician and all his shows (including "The Experiments") obviously involve deception and are not meant to be taken seriously. And that anyone who can't see this is an *****.

And although his obnoxious tone is entirely gratuitous, his underlying point is correct.

Which is why Derren's ersatz false confession "experiment" really should no place in any legitimate discussion about actual false confessions (as, for example, occurred in the Knox case).


I updated myself on the thread in question, and I don't see where Azrael 5 says this at all. In fact, what I see is that (s)he broadly agrees with me that most of Brown's shows are explicitly magic shows (and are explicitly preceded with a disclaimer that explains this), but that a smaller proportion of his shows - most notably many of the specials, "Derren Brown Investigates" and "The Experiments" are presented as straight factual programming.

As I already pointed out (and as has been raised as a discussion point on that thread), Brown and his production company could find themselves in a lot of hot water with UK broadcaster regulator Ofcom if they were deliberately deceiving audiences without issuing disclaimers that they (the audience) were being tricked for the purposes of entertainment. I have worked with people in content regulation, and I can categorically assure you that this is a very hot issue right now. As I also pointed out before, you need only look at the trouble the producers of "fake reality" shows Made In Chelsea and TOWIE got into before they agreed to issue a carefully-worded disclaimer at the start of every show broadcast. It's therefore near-inconceivable that Brown's "The Experiments" shows were fundamentally faked. And I'd bolster that by pointing out that the shows were broadcast on Channel 4, which is currently by far the most tightly-regulated commercial public broadcaster.

So I think it is highly likely that the "Guilt Trip" show was essentially real. I think that the subject of the show was genuinely oblivious to what was going on, and that he was genuinely coerced into falsely confessing to a murder he didn't commit. Give that man a 530.1 acquittal :)
 
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