Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[js202]

I love whales, but in my humble opinion, by keeping on this series of useless suggestions, you are insulting the Kerchers and Meredith's memory. People never "accept" that justice is not done. They always claim the truth, and so should be.

Just who, precisely, are you to claim the mantle of the Kerchers' honor or Meredith's memory? What a preposterous joke.

And as for concepts of truth, your posts here and elsewhere make an absolute sophistic sham and mockery of the concept. You have accrued no credentials, whatsoever, even virtual ones on an anonymous internet message board.

 

[RWVBWL]

The sea...

Hi Randy! How's the surf today? A bit chilly, I suspect.

Hi Dougm!
Hahaha, it's not too bad, and the surf has been pumping since yesterday afternoon. Right before the current storm hit that's giving us rain right now here in L.A., I swam out into the lineup with a camera inside a waterhousing and shot some surfpix for a few hours, it was soooo good out there. And no ice cream headaches, yet!

For some reason as I was getting into the water yesterday, I thought of Raffaele Sollecito. I remember reading that while in prison, Raffaele had longed to view the sea again. I can understand why. And recently I read that since his release, he has been down to the sea, it's been something he has enjoyed being near all his life, I gather. If he ever makes it over to the West Coast and happens to come down to L.A., I'd love to get the guy out there in the water and give him a surf lesson if he was up for it.

It's hard to believe that Raffaele and Amanda have been free for over a month now. Stoked!
See ya, RW

 

[Caper]

I have finally figured out Mach's profession, or at least what it should be. A politician. He rambles on trying to wear everyone out, while saying absolutely nothing. He is or would be a great politician.

Bingo. He has said almost nothing outside of some translation issues that help a bit.

Others like London John, know the points and argue the points far better then I.

Pinned down to try to explain his reasons for guilt, you get the sense he feels like he is on some devine mission from god.....

Amanda Lie, she is guilty because she lie... it is impossible she is not guilty because she is proven to lie, there for she is guilty, because she lie.... blahh blahhh... Italian blahhh.

 

[Draca]

Who said I emerged from the ordeal intact?

The thing I like about the IIP site is that there is difference of opinion, but those differences will be challenged - mostly respectfully. Good give and take. I am in the minority in some views, but not the main ones.

I was just messing with you. Sad you didn't take the bait.

 

[Draca]

Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones

HOW can they be TRUE and JUST when they have all LIED and manipulated. It astonishes me that you can say this with a strait face. These people are deceitful scumbags that put innocent people in jail for 4 years and further devastated a grieving family. I wish you would wake up to that.

 

[codyjuneau]

HOW can they be TRUE and JUST when they have all LIED and manipulated. It astonishes me that you can say this with a strait face. These people are deceitful scumbags that put innocent people in jail for 4 years and further devastated a grieving family. I wish you would wake up to that.

I don't think they have the empathy or compassion required to understand the concepts of fairness or justice.

And their idea of honor seems to be to act without it.

 

[Antony]

The only majority that matters to you might be that jury.

To me, certainly I will never give up and decide I have "lost" just because of a jury.

That's something that I can agree with - after all it's the position that the pro-innocence side were in from Dec 2009 right up to Oct 2011.

But it's a position that is dependent upon having facts that go against the decision of the jury, so this is deeply ironic coming from Machiavelli.

 

[Antony]

I think you are the deluded one if you think that people will stop accusing Knox of being a murderer. People will do, and will do a lot.

It's long overdue for such people to face proceedings for defamation. If we have to wait for the final decision of Italian Supreme Court, then that would seem to be another regrettable result of the ponderous justice system there.

 

[snook1]

I subscribe entirely with Umbria24 position. But I don't feel the verdict as a personal affront to my pride. I consider it as a personal affront because it is an insult to truth and justice. I am with Mignini and Comodi not because they better feed my national pride compared to Hellmann's court, but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

It's a one thing to believe i ntheir guilt and defend your opinion with facts, but it's completely another to make statements like this one.

I'm truly shocked. Your opinions are so delusional and so out of touch with reality, that I'm literally shocked. I had to read this quote three times to be sure what your're saying here.

Mignini, Comodi and Stefanoni true and just, the right ones? Are you completely out of your mind? Don't answer that, please.

 

[snook1]

But, if a judge such as Hellmann did actually bow to American media and to a "Knox/Mellas PR machine", that would be not just an affront to pride, that would be foremost unjust. It would be a mockery of justice rather than an affront to national pride.
If Hellmann's court instead had or appeared to have just motives to acquit, the acquittal could not be or be felt as an affront to national pride. And there would be no bowing to American media or PR machines.
So where is the consistence of your argument?

There was no bowing. Hellmann acquitted them beacuse there is no evidence that they killed Meredith Kercher. Period. End of story.

 

[Antony]

I subscribe entirely with Umbria24 position. But I don't feel the verdict as a personal affront to my pride. I consider it as a personal affront because it is an insult to truth and justice. I am with Mignini and Comodi not because they better feed my national pride compared to Hellmann's court, but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

I truly think that is very sad.

I agree, and it's a paradox that someone like Machiavelli, with all his evident education and articulacy, should cling to it in the teeth not just of the court judgement but of all the established facts in the case.

 

[snook1]

I think you are deluded as you decide to deny even the fact that there is a majority of people who think they are guilty.

Majority? What majority? Did you check? Some Italian site running the poll isn't a good representative sample. PMF is the minority. Guilters are in a minority.

 

[snook1]

The verdict is obviously not definitive and this is just a fact. There is no need to discuss it.

Actually, there is, since you're obviously deluded if you think that even if they will find her guilty (unjustly again), she will be returning to Italy to serve her sentence. No one will allow her to comeback to the country where she was once convicted and then acquitted due to many holes, mistakes and lies that the police and the prosecution made/told during both trials and the investigation and due to the lack of actual evidence suggesting she was involved in the murder of Meredith Kercher. This is the point here and you, once again, missed it.

 

[Antony]

It is obvious that you have your doubts if you can only see your point of view and you can't imagine that someone has a different conclusion based on the facts. The reason for my position can only be that I draw different conclusions based on facts.

It's nearer the truth to say that you have a different set of facts based on your conclusion. A couple of weeks ago you posted a long list of "reasons" for your confidence in Amanda and Raff's guilt; they were all either long-discredited or had no evidentiary value for their involvement, or both.

One of the reasons you gave was that the pro-innocence side (allegedly) have no explanation for the isolation of the bathroom footprint, if it is to be attributed to Guede; it didn't seem to occur to you that the same objection would apply regardless of who it was attributed to (and that the explanation has been given already in this forum: the killer removed his shoe(s) to rinse blood from the leg of his trousers, and momentarily placed his foot on the bathmat).

At about the same time, you promised to give an explanation of why the break-in (ruled not to have been staged by Hellmann) should be regarded as having been staged - we are still waiting. Your thinking is conclusion-driven from top to bottom: at every point you have an interpretation of the facts (or even a version of the "facts") tailored to back up the insupportable conduct of the investigation, and the utterly compromised evidence presented by the prosecution.

 

[Diocletus]

Stefanoni has never worked at unversity as far as I know.
I know Novelli said he wish he could have in his lab the same quality of work Stefanoni has in her HQ.
Giuseppe Novelli knows Stefanoni's laboratory very well.

But did he say he wanted the same quality of work that Stefanoni did IN THIS CASE?

What did Novelli think of Stefanoni's lying and improper record keeping?

 

[Osterwelle]

Ok, now, for a comparison, you might search Giuseppe Novelli.

As a reference, the average h-index for a fellow professor in Vecchiotti's position is about 8-9.

Yeah I know, but your point was that Vecchiotti's h-index is below 1 and not that Novelli's is significantly higher than hers.

Anyway, to me this intellectual pissing contest is utterly irrelevant. I had a couple of professors at the university who were brilliant on their field but hardly ever published anything.

Vecchiotti's credibility does not depend on the "h-index"...

-
Osterwelle

 

[Osterwelle]

I think you are deluded as you decide to deny even the fact that there is a majority of people who think they are guilty.

That may be so and there's a reason for it.

Most people don't know jack about the case except what they've been fed by the yellow press. Some simply don't care about the actual truth and never take a deeper look. Some would believe their neighbor once was Osama Bin Laden's booty call if it was written in the tabloids. Some just don't have the brains to grasp certain important things.

That's the reason why grassroots democracy is an exceptionally bad idea. The "majority" sucks...

-
Osterwelle

 

[Chris_Halkides]

testimony

Ok, now, for a comparison, you might search Giuseppe Novelli.

Machiavelli,

Would you like to summarize Dr. Novelli's testimony for us so that we can discuss it?

 

[Osterwelle]

...but because Mignini and Comodi and Stefanoni are true and just, they are the right ones, while Hellmann's court and Vecchiotti were not.

I assume - in favor of your fellow countrymen - that these three individuals are "true and just" only by your own and not by Italian standards.

Maybe you should change the subject and promote Italian cuisine instead. Would make you and your country look a lot better.

-
Osterwelle

 

[pilot padron]

Another old saying confirmed

44% of the respondents said the court acted completely correctly - 11% said they never doubted her innocence which is amazing considering the early PR campaign from ILE, another 33% thought she was guilty but there wasn't enough evidence. If half of the 18% of those that thought it was another Italian judicial screw-up that would bring the total to 53%. If half the media answers were okay with the verdict then that takes it to 61%.

If there was ever any truth to the old saying that anyone can twist and turn any numbers to mean anything they want them to mean, I could not imagine a better example than you have just provided.

Your argument is the ...uhhhh....'winner'.
This despite many less dramatic, but equally drastic examples in the previous few pages