Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[RoseMontague]

I was wondering too! For ages! I don't know why I never asked.
I like that photo.

I may bring that one back at some point. Does nobody like my current avatar?

Claude Joséphine Rose Cardinale

An Italian actress mostly known in the States for her role in Once Upon A Time In The West.

 

[Fine]

Actually, I think when she ran out to get Raff, she left with the intention of bringing help for Meredith, I don't think Raff knew Meredith was dead, he didn't get far enough into the house and Amanda stayed outside. Amanda didn't have her phone, she said herself, it was plugged in to charge up for the trip the next day. I really don't believe Amanda and Raff knew Meredith was murdered untill thyy went back to the house after 11:30 when Rudy was definately gone. Perhaps by then they felt it was to late to call the police and they needed to clear Amanda's involvement, hence the break-in and locking of Meredith's door.

______________________

Sherlock,

This ain't quite what Amanda said. During her interrogation before Mignini on December 18th, 2007, in prison, and during her testimony in court in her first trial, Amanda said she had her cell phone with her all night. She didn't say she plugged in her phone to charge the battery for her planned excursion the next day. Instead, she said she turned off her phone to preserve the battery charge for use the next day.

///

 

[smkovalinksy]

I may bring that one back at some point. Does nobody like my current avatar?

Claude Joséphine Rose Cardinale

An Italian actress mostly known in the States for her role in Once Upon A Time In The West.

I like the current avatar, it is just that the other seemed almost like a picture of you. One often gets the avatar confused with the actual person, if it is a picture, and subliminally think that it is the actual person. I once used Obama as my avatar on a forum, which made everyone address me as if I were male.

 

[smkovalinksy]

yes the variations are interesting, I agree. Oddly even Rudy's murder alibi, of someone coming and fleeing, almost could leave a opportunity for many scenarios.

The opening the door by Meredith, makes no sense for Rudy to lie about meeting Meredith in the driveway then, as he said he did. imo. That was Micheli even, saying Amanda had a key. So did Meredith? Maybe someone knocked and Meredith answered? Maybe Rudy et her in the driveway and put the knife to her neck immediately? We'll never know. Maybe Rudy was already inside when Meredith entered?

The opening the door scenario seems to be unsupported by even Rudy.
Why would Rudy need to lie about it , if Meredith let him, or them, in?
Why would Rudy tell the tale of lurking around the cottage long before the date and going downstairs and upstairs? Theres no need for that.

What would be the motivation to not simply say Meredith let me in, or Meredith let them all in?

And again, I get stuck on the two data points of the 9:26pm pc activity and the 10:13pm cell log outside the cottage, different than all the calls made earlier that day by Meredith. To me it means the murder was complete by 10:13pm, when Rudy said he fled. And that fits with all the witnesses afterwards with the Tow Truck.

And for Rudy to work Amanda and Raffaele in the crime, they would have had to leave the pc and walk over in the cold evening, to the cottage , and murder and flee.
Logically there still there is no motive for this? Especially Raffaele has no motive! Why would he have a motivation to do this shortly after talking to his Dad for sometime? Its illogical.

And the two lovebirds were so recently together, there would be no covering for the other in a murder situation, would there?

They were basically strangers. Not the kind of bond for one to be innocent and the other guilty , and the innocent willing to risk prison for the other? not likely. Who would sit in prison for life, to help someone they hardly knew?

Anyway, enough ranting for one night, my interest is Luca Maori requested charges placed on Rudy for defamation per Franks Perugia Shock, at the end of the closing. Maybe this will be supported and proceeded with. Hopefully, Rudy will get six, or more, years added. I check in to see if this has happened yet, to see if charges against Rudy have been filed.

I think Rudy will be given more time in prison, just a hunch.

Yes, I think Rudy will be given more time as well. I agree there are too many questions which arise from the other scenario, unless it was Amanda alone, and Raffaele simply went with the no involvement at all scenario and stuck with it.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I always thought that if (a big IF) Amanda and Raffaele were involved, then it must have been just the way it was described in the post that you're quoting.

They're clearly innocent of the murder, there's no doubt about it. I think that they also had no idea what happened with Meredith, however one can argue that there were signs that they in fact knew Meredith was killed.

The scenario that they stumbled upon the murder scene after Rudy left and maybe touched something (or not), freaked out, didn't call the police right away (maybe due to being afraid that they gonna find out they smoked or that simply they will suspect their involvement - what eventually happened), is the scenario that some argue was exactly what happened there during that night.

Yes, it remains a possibility, and then once they asserted no involvement at all, stuck with it to the end, knowing there would be an appeal. I still believe that the only thing which would really make them not speak up would be somehow feeling culpable for what Rudy did: NOT that they were involved, but that they had somehow put an idea in Rudy's mind.

 

[Supernaut]

By far the most fascinating group of people to examine are the pro-guilt factions - I am deeply intrigued as to how they can be a) so collectively deluded, and b) motivated to form and bolster their irrational beliefs. Given that we are all essentially working from the same information/evidence set, I find it extraordinary that a certain group of people can not only get their reasoning so very wrong, but then also choose to build walls around themselves to preserve and magnify their fallible belief system and keep all other points of view strictly at arm's length....

Evil = stupidity, it’s as simple as that. These people are ‘morally stupid’ (and often plain dumb as well), i.e. sub-normal. In extremis, it’s been demonstrated that psychopathy is a congenital or in-born condition, and that psychopaths are literally ‘moral imbeciles’.

....Personally, I've never seen anything like it before, and I'm genuinely fascinated by the whole thing.

Welcome to the club. I said a while back that I’ve found this affair to be one of the most (if not THE most) illuminating of the “human condition” I’ve ever encountered in my 52 years. It’s not that these ****holes just sprang into existence recently, they’ve always been with us, but the internet has given them the means to make their ****holiness known without actually revealing who they are (they’re no longer able to do so by means of joining lynch mobs and attending public executions).

And I have to say, it has been by turns uplifting (seeing the efforts made by people of conscience to fix this mess - I include your good self, LJ), and utterly depressing to discover that there are so many irredeemably wicked people waiting for any chance to indulge in gleeful 'Schadenfreude' at seeing their betters' lives ruined, or even actively participating in it.

I often refer to the guilters as “reprobates”, and I use the word advisedly. Most of them probably masquerade in ‘real life’ as “nice, law-abiding” people, but judged by what they say and advocate from behind the safe anonymity of the interweb, they are at best not “nice” and at worst probably not “law-abiding” either.

 

[Supernaut]

Oh my dear chap, you should look at the current discussion on the conviction in the Lockerbie bombing case. Guilt by association, blackening of the character, all sorts of spurious inferences being read into this or that - but absolutely zero evidence connecting the accused to the actual crime.

Compared to that, the case against Knox and Sollecito was rational and justifiable. They were at least in the same country at the time the crime took place, I understand they were actually within a thousand miles of the crime scene! , But it's amazing what you can do with a bit of charcter assassination.

Rolfe.

LoL.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Evil = stupidity, it’s as simple as that. These people are ‘morally stupid’ (and often plain dumb as well), i.e. sub-normal. In extremis, it’s been demonstrated that psychopathy is a congenital or in-born condition, and that psychopaths are literally ‘moral imbeciles’.


Welcome to the club. I said a while back that I’ve found this affair to be one of the most (if not THE most) illuminating of the “human condition” I’ve ever encountered in my 52 years. It’s not that these ****holes just sprang into existence recently, they’ve always been with us, but the internet has given them the means to make their ****holiness known without actually revealing who they are (they’re no longer able to do so by means of joining lynch mobs and attending public executions).

And I have to say, it has been by turns uplifting (seeing the efforts made by people of conscience to fix this mess - I include your good self, LJ), and utterly depressing to discover that there are so many irredeemably wicked people waiting for any chance to indulge in gleeful 'Schadenfreude' at seeing their betters' lives ruined, or even actively participating in it.

I often refer to the guilters as “reprobates”, and I use the word advisedly. Most of them probably masquerade in ‘real life’ as “nice, law-abiding” people, but judged by what they say and advocate from behind the safe anonymity of the interweb, they are at best not “nice” and at worst probably not “law-abiding” either.

I think your analysis hits the mark, and all you say here have also been my own thoughts and conclusions regarding certain of my own family members. Scott Peck wrote a book about evil called "People of the Lie", and draws pretty much the same conclusions as you have here: Evil is mundane and prosaic; It is a deficit, a substandard frame of mind, which instinctively seeks out others of its kind and increases through feeding on the mishaps of others. It is also prone to mania and projection onto others. Of course the internet now creates a venue where this sort of thing can increase, and it has.
(Addendum: It is interesting to me that you add, "and probably not law-abiding either", because it was my own experience, in my family, that those who were judging others harshly and I had assumed were just mean-spirited but law-abiding people, turned out to have actually committed some serious crimes: Tax evasion, covert substance abuse, paternity scams, one was a therapist who had had sex with a pateint, etc.)

 

[Rashomon fan]

I may bring that one back at some point. Does nobody like my current avatar?

Claude Joséphine Rose Cardinale

An Italian actress mostly known in the States for her role in Once Upon A Time In The West.

I think she's ravishing.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I think she's ravishing.

Me, too.

 

[Supernaut]

I think your analysis hits the mark, and all you say here have also been my own thoughts and conclusions regarding certain of my own family members. Scott Peck wrote a book about evil called "People of the Lie", and draws pretty much the same conclusions as you have here: Evil is mundane and prosaic; It is a deficit, a substandard frame of mind, which instinctively seeks out others of its kind and increases through feeding on the mishaps of others. It is also prone to mania and projection onto others. Of course the internet now creates a venue where this sort of thing can increase, and it has.

Yep. Disturbing.

I recently downloaded and read "The Mask Of Sanity", and a while back "Politcal Ponerolgy". The first lists over a dozen case-studies of 'high-functioning' but relatively innocous psychopaths (innocuous, that is, except to their families, peers and random victims of their pointless mischief and thefts), the second concerns the idea that psychopaths can actually acquire financial and political power - get themselves in positions to take charge of corporations, adminstrations and so on.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

I may bring that one back at some point. Does nobody like my current avatar?

Claude Joséphine Rose Cardinale

An Italian actress mostly known in the States for her role in Once Upon A Time In The West.

RoseMontague,

Great film. I also liked the avatar you used before the 5th element. Any news these days in the Scazzi murder case?

 

[RoseMontague]

RoseMontague,

Great film. I also liked the avatar you used before the 5th element. Any news these days in the Scazzi murder case?

I am guessing they are going to let Sabrina's detention order expire before it is ruled on, pending first trial. That should be coming up end of this month, IIRC.

There was a hearing a few days ago and the judge seemed to accept some of the defense claims. Several choices for the prosecution remain, my guess is above.

http://albatros-volandocontrovento.blogspot.com/2011/11/sarah-scazzi-lo-psichiatra-michele.html

The prosecution's case is a mess, the whole thing is a big cluster sparkle.

 

[RoseMontague]

Mignini's court date for his appeal is 22 November. Will he argue that it is all Preston:

Mignini has claimed Douglas Preston, the US novelist who challenged Mignini's theories about the Monster of Florence, is masterminding a US press campaign against him over his handling of the Knox case. "It's all Preston," he said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/201...nini-knox-prosecutor-conspiracy?newsfeed=true

 

[Osterwelle]

I may bring that one back at some point. Does nobody like my current avatar?

I do.

Although deciding between Milla and Claudia is really hard...

-
Osterwelle

 

[RoseMontague]

Does Comodi have a bit of a history as well?

http://www.libero-news.it/news/8377...tti-Mignini-punito-la-Comodi-sconfessata.html

 

[Grinder]

I always thought that if (a big IF) Amanda and Raffaele were involved, then it must have been just the way it was described in the post that you're quoting.

They're clearly innocent of the murder, there's no doubt about it. I think that they also had no idea what happened with Meredith, however one can argue that there were signs that they in fact knew Meredith was killed.

The scenario that they stumbled upon the murder scene after Rudy left and maybe touched something (or not), freaked out, didn't call the police right away (maybe due to being afraid that they gonna find out they smoked or that simply they will suspect their involvement - what eventually happened), is the scenario that some argue was exactly what happened there during that night.

Well this certainly shows that this forum accepts different views.

I could buy this basic story if and only if they had come forward within a week or two with this account. I still find it so unlikely that they would open the door and see Meredith lying there and not call the police that I can't give this a higher probability than Mignini's crazy sex ritual game theory. Why would they think that the police would suspect them?

 

[smkovalinksy]

Yep. Disturbing.

I recently downloaded and read "The Mask Of Sanity", and a while back "Politcal Ponerolgy". The first lists over a dozen case-studies of 'high-functioning' but relatively innocous psychopaths (innocuous, that is, except to their families, peers and random victims of their pointless mischief and thefts), the second concerns the idea that psychopaths can actually acquire financial and political power - get themselves in positions to take charge of corporations, adminstrations and so on.

I think it is important to add that although Cleckley's The Mask of Sanity is a good book about screwed-up people with pathology, it is NOT a good book about evil and sociopathic people.

As you note, most of his studies were innocuous people, screwing up their own lives, and generally hurting themselves, and annoying their families.

Peck conversely speaks of seemingly normal people, often with wealth, education, good standing, who it turns out are tormenting a family member, torturing an employee, driving someone to suicide through scape-goating, etc. These people also have pathological and criminal tendencies which they cover up and keep carefully hidden from view.

Cleckley's bunch were OPENINGLY screwing up, at their OWN expense, such as the well-bred girl from a good family, who went out and had sex with 5 men at the same time, and was subsequently beat up. This is just pathos.

She was not tormenting and scapegoating, and sabatoging a weak person, while gloating and enjoying good standing. THIS in the mark of true evil and sociopathology, and I have seen it in my own family.

The virtuous are stolen from, lied about, and generally sabatoged systematically, while the evil giggle and go their merry way and win awards, distinctions, and the like, all the while carefully covering up their own tax evasions, inheritance thefts, extortion, lying, cocaine use, sexual sordid adventures with minors and patients, etc.

I think it is very important to make this distinction: If the person is NOT scapegoating others, not seeking to hurt others while raising themselves up, they are not evil or sociopathic. Just screwy and out of control.

 

[Osterwelle]

Your opinion that "no one believing in innocense (sp) is permitted to post there" is an inaccurate, unjustified, overly simplistic generalization.

Hm, no. I'd say that sums up your speech pretty accurately and takes a lot less typing.

Everybody with an IQ above common toast knows PMF is a one-track mind forum where an open debate is not welcome (no matter how you call it). So you could at least have the cojones and avow yourself to that fact.

Show some honesty...

-
Osterwelle

 

[snook1]

Well this certainly shows that this forum accepts different views.

I could buy this basic story if and only if they had come forward within a week or two with this account. I still find it so unlikely that they would open the door and see Meredith lying there and not call the police that I can't give this a higher probability than Mignini's crazy sex ritual game theory. Why would they think that the police would suspect them?

I, too, find it almost virtually impossible to not confess after a short while that they in fact were there and saw the body. I can't think of any good reason, other than the fear of being suspected based on their alleged drugs use and apparently "weird"behaviour during the first hours after discovering the body. But I guess, no one would be able to endure such a huge pressure coming from everywhere (incl police and their own families). They knew each other for what, 8 days? I refuse to believe they would lie for each other for 4 long years(if they only saw the body). Not to mention that one of the reasons why I thought they're innocent of the murder, is the fact that they basically never turned on each other or on Guede (about whom they never ever suggested that he was the killer). I refuse to believe they thought all of that through in such a short time (after discovering the body until the arrests). It's impossible and it amazes me how the guilters along with the prosecution could come to another conclusion.


I find the story to be very complicated. The case, as Bruce many times said, is simple. Guede attacked and killed Meredith. Amanda and Raffaele had nothing to do with it. Still, I've seen people claiming that AK and RS knew what happened (or at least found the body after Guede left) and never came forward for various reasons. It's a scenario that at one point bothered me very much. Maybe the sensationalist in me tells me that there's something else to this story, but at the end of the day, they were declared innocent, there's no evidence, they're free and they absolutely had no involvement in Meredith's murder.