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Merged New video! Architects and Engineers - Solving the Mystery of Building 7

1 buckled column resulted in the complete destruction of a 47 story building?

It led to the progressive collapse of the core, which pulled in an ~8-storey section of exterior wall. When that happened we observed so-called "global collapse", eventually creating a period of freefall, although the collapse sequence had been progressing for several seconds before.

So, essentially, yes. One buckled column resulted in the complete destruction of a 47 story building. Eventually.
 
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It led to the progressive collapse of the core, which pulled in an ~8-storey section of exterior wall. When that happened we observed so-called "global collapse", eventually creating a period of freefall, although the collapse sequence had been progressing for several seconds before.

So, essentially, yes. One buckled column resulted in the complete destruction of a 47 story building. Eventually.

Well... in my opinion, it's a bit more accurate to say that column 79 caused the upper part of the east side of the building to fail, which caused other columns to buckle, which caused floors to fail across to the west side, which then left everything so bad that the entire building collapsed. My point here is that we are sometimes guilty of oversimplifying the explanation (not just truthers; we do it too, usually for convenience's sake). Column 79 buckled due to local failures, and it in turn induced further nearby failures. It's more correct to say that it was one of the starting points of the cascade of failures, and it's also sort of an unintentional distortion to say that it caused the entire building to fail. It's unintentionally distortive because without context, it makes it sound to the layman and not-informed historian as though column 79 was somehow some central column that supported everything. On the contrary, it was only responsible for a local failure, but everything progressed from there. Hence, the application of "Progressive Collapse" to the situation.

Although several people here once suggested that the term "cascading failure" was just a good a description, if not better. Regardless, the point is that column 79 was less the failure that caused the building to collapse and more one of the beginning accumulating failures (only one of them; recall that floors had to fail to leave column 79 unsupported to the point where it did buckle. The collapse wasn't any one, single thing; it was an accumulation of a whole lot of failures adding up).

GlennB is essentially right, but the point could stand some more details in order to be more clear.
 
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http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7739396&postcount=1534
"You're missing the point, so let me rephrase it:

In your CD scenario
why is there a period of 1.75 seconds of < g acceleration, given that you claim instantaneous removal of all support is required to explain the g phase? What was happening in those 1.75 seconds?"
"NIST's Stage 1, was the period before the global collapse of WTC7 reached freefall acceleration (Stage 2). During Stage 1, for 1.75 seconds at least 8 storeys worth of lower supporting columns, across the complete WTC7 floor area, were simultaneously demolished.

Stage 1 was followed by Stage 2, a period of freefall for 2.25 seconds, clearly meaning an unobstructed global drop through those column-removed 8 storeys. A 100 foot free fall, unobstructed and unresisted.

From the videos you can see for yourself that the north face and the west face were free-falling in unity.

set3sccompositeua1.png


Vertical structural supports from the northeast corner all the way around to the southwest corner were proven by the video to have been instantly removed.

Not even a left to right progressive collapse which might have supported the NIST fantasy.

When global collapse started, the left side dropped in time with the right."


http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7740013&postcount=1542


"I do not see a contradiction Dave.

Simultaneously in the context I used, means that the same or similar action (demolition) was occurring against 8 storeys worth of lower supporting columns, across the complete WTC7 floor area for a period of 1.75 seconds.

It means all at the same time, which is not the same as saying it took zero time to complete.

You have to allow a small portion of time to clear (demolish) a path for the ensuing freefall."
"And here is a slightly different version of the bare assertion fallacy to the one I predicted. No explanation as to why it takes 1.75 seconds for the structural elements to be removed from the path of freefall, when all that's required is for the columns to be severed and moved laterally by a few inches, something explosives could do in very much less than a second and thermite could not do at all; just the simple assertion that this was what happened. This is pure fantasy, unsupported by any explanation of the mechanics of the proposed process; as such, it's not even worth the briefest consideration."
"The simultaneous demolition occurring on the lower structural columns was not represented by 8 storeys of instantly vaporized steel. The NIST's Stage 1 <g acceleration, indicates their belief that the WTC7 collapse had not reached freefall for the first 1.75 seconds into its global collapse.

Clearly during that first 1.75 second period, there was a uniform removal of support across the complete WTC7 cross-section but structural resistance was not quite zero. After 1.75 of near freefall acceleration, zero resistance was achieved and WTC7 achieved the NIST's Stage 2, freefall acceleration for their estimated 2.25 seconds, followed by a Stage 3 de-acceleration less than freefall for 1.4 seconds (resistance from the growing debris pile)."
"This is completely incorrect. Firstly, we know from the deformation of the building as it fell - in particular, the kink in the north face clearly visible in the photographs posted in this thread - that the removal of support was not uniform, but rather that it occurred significantly sooner near the centre of the face and significantly later near the east and west ends. The kink alone proves conclusively that the removal of support was not, in fact, simultaneous; rather, it was sequential across the face, exactly as would be expected from a laterally progressing structural failure due to overloading. Secondly, the structural resistance can be determined directly from the rate of acceleration, and it is entirely misleading to describe its value as "not quite zero" over this entire period. It decreased smoothly, and more or less monotonically, from a value equal to the weight of the structure above it to a value insignificantly different from zero over the 1.75 seconds of phase 1."
"So we are going to go into nitpick, or diamond cutting mode now are we?

I agree there was a kink, but too qualify my comment about uniformity as "completely incorrect", I would expect an irregularity in the roofline much more pronounced than the kink. A "roofline kink" is a classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion I might add.

Since, as you know I believe that the collapse of WTC7 was the result of an implosion-based controlled demolition, of course I expect the core to fail first. That is after all, how implosions are designed.

I never presented any acceleration numbers, so I see no point in quibbling over your hand waving numbers which, after all is said and done, represent a less than freefall acceleration for NIST's Stage 1."


In his post below, GlennB extracted portions of my earlier reply to himself and a later reply to Dave Rogers (above).

In so doing, he deliberately took them out of context.

"NIST's Stage 1, was the period before the global collapse of WTC7 reached freefall acceleration (Stage 2). During Stage 1, for 1.75 seconds at least 8 storeys worth of lower supporting columns, across the complete WTC7 floor area, were simultaneously demolished."
"So we are going to go into nitpick, or diamond cutting mode now are we?

I agree there was a kink, but too qualify my comment about uniformity as "completely incorrect", I would expect an irregularity in the roofline much more pronounced than the kink. A "roofline kink" is a classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion I might add.

Since, as you know I believe that the collapse of WTC7 was the result of an implosion-based controlled demolition, of course I expect the core to fail first. That is after all, how implosions are designed.

I never presented any acceleration numbers, so I see no point in quibbling over your hand waving numbers which, after all is said and done, represent a less than freefall acceleration for NIST's Stage 1."
"My bolding.

Please make up your mind and stop contradicting yourself.

If you don't know what your own theory is how can you possibly conduct a rational discussion with others?"

There is no contradiction, other than the one you have tried to create.

You misrepresent me by using two separate quotes. You omitted the middle exchange between Dave and myself, which would have kept my two statements in their proper and non-contradictory context.

That was very disingenuous Glenn.

I fixed that misrepresentation in this reply.

MM
 
Just incidentally:

A "roofline kink" is a classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion I might add.

Here's a classic example of what truthers do when they want evidence of something, but can't find it; they just take whatever they see and pretend it's evidence of what they want to prove. The above claim is entirely specious, for two very good reasons.

Firstly, there is, of course, no such thing as a "classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion"; an indicator is what is required to determine the nature of an unknown. Since there has never in history been a covert controlled demolition, there has never been an instance where an indicator of controlled demolition was needed; it is always known that a demolition is intentional. Therefore, no body of work exists (as the term "classic" implies) to determine what is, or is not, a characteristic of controlled demolition. Even if there were indicators, therefore, they could not be classic indicators. The word "classic" has the form of the appeal to common sense; it suggests that this is so well-known an indicator of controlled demolition that everybody should be aware of it. It is of course no such thing.

Secondly, the term "indicator" implies a means of determining whether a specific condition is true or false. In order to determine whether a specific observation qualifies as an indicator of controled demolition, one would therefore have to have studied collapses of steel-framed buildings and to have divided those collapses into two categories - those caused by, and those not caused by, controlled demolition - and verify that one's proposed indicator was almost always present in one, and almost always absent in the other. But this causes a major problem for truthers, because they will frequently claim that no steel framed high rise building has ever collapsed as a result of fire damage. This claim therefore carries the implication that there is not, and cannot, be a means of determining that the absence of a roofline kink is an expected feature of a collapse due to fire. Ironically, truthers disallow the examination of their own null hypothesis.

It's worth noting that no evidence is offered, or ever will be, that a roofline kink is even expected in a controlled implosion, let alone impossible in any other type of collapse. This is because, quite simply, it isn't. In, for example, the demolition of the Landmark Tower in Fort Worth, no significant deformation of the roofline is clearly visible at any time in the collapse. The Seattle Kingdome roof fell in sequential sections, showing complete breaks rather than any kinks. The J L Hudson department store demolition shows the roofline disintegrating as the structure below it is progressively removed. The Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas again shows separate sections of roofline falling independently, some showing kinks at late stages of the collapse, others not. The nature of controlled implosions is that they are controlled, and a building can be brought down in a wide variety of ways, which will all look different.

It's superficially convincing when someone makes a statement along the lines that "X is an indicator of Y." It carries the implied suggestion of the statement, "I have studied, or consulted people who have studied, broad and varied experience of examples where Y may or may not be true, and found that in the majority of instances there is a positive correlation between Y being true and X being true." In the case of statements made by truthers, this impression is misleading; the actual statement being made is more along the lines of "I want you to believe Y, so I'll pretend that X being true, which we all agree on, means Y must be true as well."

It's not a direct lie, but it's a lie by implication. But, in that sense, it justifies part of the language originally used; the appeal to implied but actually nonexistent authority is such a popular form of lie by implication in the truth movement, I would happily admit that it's a classic truther lie.

Dave
 
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"Well I chose the word belief because there is some debate about how and where the NIST took their measurements. Regardless, we are in agreement that WTC7 did, very soon after, achieve freefall."
"Then you clearly used it incorrectly. However and wherever NIST took their measurements, they are nonetheless measurements, rather than statements of belief."
"So any measurements are good enough for you, just as long as they are the NIST's."
"Thank you for demonstrating your dishonesty by blatantly misrepresenting what I said. It makes it clearer that your opinions aren't worth bothering with."

Blatantly? Well Dave you are very careful to not say much of anything. Characterizing those questionable NIST measurements as "nonetheless measurements", doesn't exactly place the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on them.

"You do know what is meant by T=0 do you not Dave?"
"Yes, very precisely. On the other hand, you appear not to."

For my use, it means that TIME (T) equals ZERO (0).

As in the clock hasn't started yet.

As in there is nothing yet measurable that has a time component.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over the change in time.

a = dv/dt

v = distance/time

So, if we have a condition where an object is falling at zero velocity over a zero period of time, than we must have an acceleration of zero.

"So we are going to go into nitpick, or diamond cutting mode now are we?

I agree there was a kink, but too qualify my comment about uniformity as "completely incorrect", I would expect an irregularity in the roofline much more pronounced than the kink. A "roofline kink" is a classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion I might add.

Since, as you know I believe that the collapse of WTC7 was the result of an implosion-based controlled demolition, of course I expect the core to fail first. That is after all, how implosions are designed.

I never presented any acceleration numbers, so I see no point in quibbling over your hand waving numbers which, after all is said and done, represent a less than freefall acceleration for NIST's Stage 1."
"No. We are simply going to note that you have no idea what you are talking about, and that you make numerous completely false statements."
"And you of course are going to bigoted opinion as a response. Nice elucidation of your argument Dave."

No further comment from Dave noted.

"Maybe you might explain how the global collapse of WTC7 had an acceleration greater than zero before the clock started running?"
"That would be at T<0, not T=0."

Ahh. A time less than zero. So you are getting into time travel or what?

I thought zero was a well understood term but apparently for the religious it is not.

T=0 is my reference, not for the collapse of the WTC7 east penthouse, but the time reference for the start of the WTC7 global collapse (as observed from the complete roofline).

"No, I am claiming that when the fall of WTC7 is offered zero resistance to gravity, it is in freefall."
"You don't even know what you're claiming, but it's clearly not that. Stage 1 cannot be described reasonably as "near freefall" acceleration, as it includes a period of near zero acceleration.

If you want to refute the claim that you don't know what you're talking about, the presentation of a host of additional basic errors is not a good approach."

The one who apparently does not know what they are talking about is yourself Dave.

Of course Stage 1 "includes a period of near zero acceleration", since at T=0, the time reference for the beginning of Stage 1, the global collapse had not yet started and thus it had zero acceleration.

How you feel this pointless, moronic quibbling is making a case for your quasi-religious faith in the NIST theory about the collapse of WTC7 is truly bemusing Dave?

MM
 
Even more so than say, sounds of explosions?

sample said:
It was classic controlled demolition
*points out that it's not controlled and no loud bangs were heard*
sample said:
That's what you get when it's an unconventionally carried out controlled demolition
sample said:
Thermite is silent/audio from footage is not well recorded *posts video with a "boom" so silent you have to put the monitor volume to maximum to barely hear it*(*)

Yes I've had enough exchanges with people to wind up with that progression of claims.

(*) People speaking in the foreground less than half a mile away from the site of claimed explosions are louder than the supposed explosion itself.
 
I see that Miragememories is determined to continue posting basic errors and misinterpretations, in the hope that a sufficiently large body of work will establish him as a reliable authority.

Blatantly? Well Dave you are very careful to not say much of anything. Characterizing those questionable NIST measurements as "nonetheless measurements", doesn't exactly place the Good Housekeeping Seal of Approval on them.

It differentiates them from unfounded beliefs such as, for example, "A "roofline kink" is a classic indicator of a controlled demolition by implosion".


For my use, it means that TIME (T) equals ZERO (0).

As in the clock hasn't started yet.

As in there is nothing yet measurable that has a time component.

Strange that you try to refute the suggestion that you don't understand something by demonstrating it beyond any possible doubt. The time T=0 is a specific instant used as a reference point, rather than the totality of time up to the moment a specific process begins. At least, any competent scientist or engineer would understand it as such.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over the change in time.

a = dv/dt

Unusually, this is actually correct.

v = distance/time

Although this, strictly speaking, isn't; if you're using the differential form for acceleration, then you're referring to the instantaneous acceleration, therefore you should also use the differential form for velocity.

So, if we have a condition where an object is falling at zero velocity over a zero period of time, than we must have an acceleration of zero.

And this is both scientifically or mathematically illiterate. If you throw a ball vertically upwards at less than escape velocity, there will be an instant in its motion when it is falling at zero velocity over a zero period of time, but has an acceleration of precisely 1G. Miragememories is therefore demonstrating a complete misunderstanding of simple Newtonian mechanics with this statement.

Ahh. A time less than zero. So you are getting into time travel or what?

Apparently, in truther world, the word "before" has no temporal meaning.

I thought zero was a well understood term but apparently for the religious it is not.

I, on the other hand, was already well aware of the inability of the religious to grasp the simplest scientific concepts. Miragememories, as a true believer in the religion of 9/11 truth, is a very good example.

Of course Stage 1 "includes a period of near zero acceleration", since at T=0, the time reference for the beginning of Stage 1, the global collapse had not yet started and thus it had zero acceleration.

It's impressive that Miragememories manages, at the same time, both to admit that he was wrong when he described stage 1 as a period of near-freefall acceleration, and to demonstrate that he doesn't even understand how or why he was wrong. At T=0, by his definition, the global collapse started. Even neglecting the fact, pointed out by femr2, that the building was already moving prior to the facade collapse, he doesn't understand that the acceleration of an object released from a height goes abruptly from zero to 1G, that the facade of WTC7 did not do this but rather increased smoothly from zero to 1G over 1.75 seconds, and that therefore the behaviour of the facade of WTC7 during Stage 1 was not just quantitatively, but also qualitatively, different to that of an object in freefall. To describe this behaviour as "near freefall" demonstrates a total lack of understanding, yet again, of simple Newtonian mechanics, or an intent to deceive. No third option is available.

How you feel this pointless, moronic quibbling is making a case for your quasi-religious faith in the NIST theory about the collapse of WTC7 is truly bemusing Dave?

And finally he demonstrates that he can't even construct a coherent sentence.

The point I'm making here is that Miragememories is doing no more than appeal to his own authority, while at the same time demonstrating that he lacks the competence in any subject that would make him an authority. It seems to me that it's quite rigorously established by now.

Dave
 
For my use, it means that TIME (T) equals ZERO (0).

As in the clock hasn't started yet.

As in there is nothing yet measurable that has a time component.

Acceleration is the change in velocity over the change in time.

a = dv/dt

v = distance/time

So, if we have a condition where an object is falling at zero velocity over a zero period of time, than we must have an acceleration of zero.
You're doing it wrong.

Ahh. A time less than zero. So you are getting into time travel or what?

I thought zero was a well understood term but apparently for the religious it is not.

T=0 is my reference, not for the collapse of the WTC7 east penthouse, but the time reference for the start of the WTC7 global collapse (as observed from the complete roofline).

The one who apparently does not know what they are talking about is yourself Dave.

Of course Stage 1 "includes a period of near zero acceleration", since at T=0, the time reference for the beginning of Stage 1, the global collapse had not yet started and thus it had zero acceleration.
Still doing it wrong.
How you feel this pointless, moronic quibbling is making a case for your quasi-religious faith in the NIST theory about the collapse of WTC7 is truly bemusing Dave?

MM
Right now it consists of showing that you don't know what you are doing. You really didn't need to go the trouble of showing us that you never actually took any structural engineering classes. We already knew that.

ETA: Gee, Dave, you're so much more erudite than I am :).
 
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Why is it that truther "classic" controlled demolitions never actually include things that are at every controlled demolition ever done?
 
Why is it that truther "classic" controlled demolitions never actually include things that are at every controlled demolition ever done?


Because if a nefarious entity did conduct a controlled demolition making it obviously like the average controlled demolition would be ridiculously obvious.
 
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Because if a nefarious entity did conduct a controlled demolition making it obviously like the average controlled demolition would be ridiculously obvious.

Which is entirely the point... If the hypothetical perpetrators are going to intentionally bring down a building without any concern for damage to adjacent buildings or bodily harm it loses any meaning to being "controlled."

By claiming that it resembles a "classic" controlled demolition, yet claiming it's unconventional because it garners results that look nothing like that of a controlled demolition, is a non-sequitor. Not only is there evidence lacking to favor it, but the case is being made even more nonsensical by the person's mislabeling of the circumstances. There's a reason why controlled demolitions have the term "controlled" in them... the WTC do not match any of the criteria of being "controlled"
 
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Yea, claiming it was a CD with NO evidence other than, "because it looks like a classic CD" and then claiming they were purposely designed to NOT look like a classic CD when confronted with the fact they actually don't look like a classic CD always seemed a little odd to me.
 
Which is entirely the point... If the hypothetical perpetrators are going to intentionally bring down a building without any concern for damage to adjacent buildings or bodily harm it loses any meaning to being "controlled."


That's more semantics of the definition of a word than the actual situation in hand, don't you think?

By claiming that it resembles a "classic" controlled demolition, yet claiming it's unconventional because it garners results that look nothing like that of a controlled demolition, is a non-sequitor.


I would agree. By viewing the video the building collapse does look just like a demolition. Maybe not a controlled demolition, but more a demolition. Or a cascading failure. One of the two.
 

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