Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

Red iron oxide is attracted to a magnet. It is the basis of magnetic tape, whether audio, video or floppy disks. It is also one of the world's most durable red pigments, resisting nearly anything (such as ultraviolet light) which might cause other pigments to fade. Thus, nearly any red paint will stick to a magnet.
 
Red iron oxide is attracted to a magnet. It is the basis of magnetic tape, whether audio, video or floppy disks. It is also one of the world's most durable red pigments, resisting nearly anything (such as ultraviolet light) which might cause other pigments to fade. Thus, nearly any red paint will stick to a magnet.

Perhaps my answer to Chrismohr was rather dumb, since we know that red-gray chips were separated from the dust using some permanent magnet. But we do not know (I think) if it was really easy to collect them (how efficient this method was or so). Otherwise, I read in Wiki that iron oxide exists in various forms and their magnetic properties are dependent on many factors including pressure, particle size, and magnetic field intensity. It is rather "over my head". (Interestingly, as for magnetic properties, Wiki gives a link to the document on iron oxide which is wrtitten in Czech http://atmilab.upol.cz/vys/fe2o3.html):o)
 
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"As has been reported, the formation of elemental iron as spheres is the signature reaction of thermitic material.

It is impossible to concieve, that Laclede primer paint can generate iron rich spheres upon combustion, in particular not as it is an oxidative protectant.

.... To have any validity, you [Ivan Kminek] must be able to demonstrate, that the Laclede paint can produce elemental iron in iron-rich spheres with the same signature-EDS as iron-rich spheres from thermite reactions."
"You [Ivan Kminek] continue to ignore the necessity of meeting the above basic criteria.

Why should anyone pursue your otherwise "wild goose chase" of an argument when you cannot meet a fundamental requirement of your hypothesis?

At least you [Ivan Kminek] acknowledge that your use of the Muramaki paper was irrelevant and a poor example. One can only wonder about the integrity of everything you have written, when you resort to padding your theory by citing papers which you know are unrepresentative.

Possibly you are assuming that no one is sufficiently knowledgeable to catch you in such deception?

It is certainly not my desire to get dragged into examining the quagmire of irrelevant papers you so happily Google."
"I agree with you. I think it's time for you to convince Harret/Jones to agree to an independent investigation (with subpoena powers if they resist). The FACT they REFUSE to submit their work for peer-review and the FACT they REFUSE to allow independent access to their sample CAN ONLY mean they are HIDING SOMETHING.

My only question of you. Why are you NOT suspicious of their activities?"

Rather than badger them to do something they are already trying their best to achieve, maybe DGM you could add a little substance to your bolded claims?

1) Show me your factual proof that Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones have not already had their work peer-reviewed.

And don't bother me with all that vanity-journal hand waving bs. Unless you can prove the Bentham paper is officially illegitimate, then all your opinionated arguments are meaningless.

2) Show me factual proof they are unwilling to have their work peer-reviewed elsewhere?

3) Show me factual proof, that independent researchers are unable to obtain access to samples of WTC dust.

Do you believe the hundreds of thousands of tons of original WTC dust is hidden away under lock 'n key by Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones?

The real problem is with the people who could be doing the same research but refuse to do so.

The NIST, FEMA, the FBI, U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), RJ Lee Company, McGee et al, Lioy et al, MIT, Popular Mechanics, etc. etc.,

I am sure, all have the necessary resources and access to samples which they could test. If the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper is seriously flawed, then it would be so easy to demonstrate this with Officially sanctioned independent testing.

They simply do not want to discover that the Bentham paper is correct in its findings.

So I have to say DGM, the people whose activities I find to be suspicious, are those with the mandate but the apparent unwillingness to make any attempt to confirm or deny the findings in the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper!

MM
 
As I already wrote, the making of epoxy "concoctions" suitable for electrocoating/electrodepositions is a quite hi-tec matter.
we are talking about them doing it back in 1967.......how is it so high tech now?

Anyway, there is really no reason to have the slightest doubt that this method works, Senenmut, and high-quality layers with evenly distributed particles of pigments/fillers are formed in this way:cool:
electroplating works, yes. but what would the end result look like with those certain pigments and epoxy?

This painting technology is widely used (among others) for the painting of car steel parts where the quality of the paint layer must be really high.
Therefore, the layer on Fig. 9 in Bentham paper could be indeed formed by electrocoating, why not?
the funny thing is, i doubt it was used that much back then. maybe it was some experimental thing considering the laclede standard steel joist paint formula was dated sept 1, 1967.

from wiki-
The first patent for a cathodic EPD product was issued in 1965 and assigned to BASF AG. PPG Industries, Inc. was the first to introduce commercially cathodic EPD in 1970. The first cathodic EPD use in the automotive industry was in 1975.

the nist mention the pittsburgh plate glass company (PPG).
nist-
The shop paint was to be in accordance with Pittsburgh Plate Glass (PPG) Company Standard RF-2184
initial tank charging material with PPG red power primer RF-2184 replenishing material or Laclede
Standard Red Chromate Steel Primer, Specification LREP 10001.


was laclede doing experimental stuff perhaps?
 
Rather than badger them to do something they are already trying their best to achieve,
MM
You answered my questions for me.

Why are they trying their best if these things are already done? They seem to have a lot of questions concerning their work that was supposedly already "peer-reviewed". Is it normal for work to be peer-reviewed" by a person mentioned as a contributor to the paper? Who exactly was it they sought to have their work "independently verified" by? The only one I'm aware of was F Henry-Couannier and he disagrees with their findings.

Why are you reluctant to "badger" them when you have no problem hoping (I said "hoping" because we know you wouldn't do it yourself). others will badger whomever if it will prolong your hope of a conspiracy?
 
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"Rather than badger them to do something they are already trying their best to achieve, maybe DGM you could add a little substance to your bolded claims?

1) Show me your factual proof that Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones have not already had their work peer-reviewed.

And don't bother me with all that vanity-journal hand waving bs. Unless you can prove the Bentham paper is officially illegitimate, then all your opinionated arguments are meaningless.

2) Show me factual proof they are unwilling to have their work peer-reviewed elsewhere?

3) Show me factual proof, that independent researchers are unable to obtain access to samples of WTC dust.

Do you believe the hundreds of thousands of tons of original WTC dust is hidden away under lock 'n key by Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones?

The real problem is with the people who could be doing the same research but refuse to do so.

The NIST, FEMA, the FBI, U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), RJ Lee Company, McGee et al, Lioy et al, MIT, Popular Mechanics, etc. etc.,

I am sure, all have the necessary resources and access to samples which they could test. If the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper is seriously flawed, then it would be so easy to demonstrate this with Officially sanctioned independent testing.

They simply do not want to discover that the Bentham paper is correct in its findings.

So I have to say DGM, the people whose activities I find to be suspicious, are those with the mandate but the apparent unwillingness to make any attempt to confirm or deny the findings in the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper!"
"You answered my questions for me.

Why are they trying their best if these things are already done? They seem to have a lot of questions concerning their work that was supposedly already "peer-reviewed". Is it normal for work to be peer-reviewed" by a person mentioned as a contributor to the paper? Who exactly was it they sought to have their work "independently verified" by? The only one I'm aware of was F Henry-Couannier and he disagrees with their findings.

Why are you reluctant to "badger" them when you have no problem hoping (I said "hoping" because we know you wouldn't do it yourself). others will badger whomever if it will prolong your hope of a conspiracy?"

As I expected, you pretty much ignored my reply.

Still, you don't mind asking dishonest questions.

They are dishonest questions because you have no genuine interest in hearing them answered.

You pose a question about Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones possibly hiding something because they are, according to you, effectively blocking a 3rd party investigation into their nanothermite findings.

Yet when I point out to you how easy it would be to expose them, that is, if your concerns were genuine, you deliberately ignore my response.

MM
 
As I expected, you pretty much ignored my reply.
No, I did not. What I did is not fall for your redirection. You answered the questions (I originally asked) with your reply "they are trying their best".

Still, you don't mind asking dishonest questions.

They are dishonest questions because you have no genuine interest in hearing them answered.

I never ask questions I don't want to hear answers to. I may not accept the answer but, that does not mean the question was dishonest.

You pose a question about Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones possibly hiding something because they are, according to you, effectively blocking a 3rd party investigation into their nanothermite findings.

Yet when I point out to you how easy it would be to expose them, that is, if your concerns were genuine, you deliberately ignore my response.

MM

No, Again I did not. I stated that the only "independent verification" I was aware of and as far as I know, they have refused to submit samples to anyone else. Have the offered samples to anyone for verification that I'm not aware of?

MM, really, I would think you would be in favor of getting them to answer all the questions and concerns. What better way than to submit their work for independent review? Do you think it's so solid it should not be questioned?
 
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Rather than badger them to do something they are already trying their best to achieve, maybe DGM you could add a little substance to your bolded claims?

1) Show me your factual proof that Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones have not already had their work peer-reviewed.

And don't bother me with all that vanity-journal hand waving bs. Unless you can prove the Bentham paper is officially illegitimate, then all your opinionated arguments are meaningless.

2) Show me factual proof they are unwilling to have their work peer-reviewed elsewhere?

3) Show me factual proof, that independent researchers are unable to obtain access to samples of WTC dust.

Do you believe the hundreds of thousands of tons of original WTC dust is hidden away under lock 'n key by Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones?

The real problem is with the people who could be doing the same research but refuse to do so.

The NIST, FEMA, the FBI, U.S. Geological Survey (USGS), RJ Lee Company, McGee et al, Lioy et al, MIT, Popular Mechanics, etc. etc.,

I am sure, all have the necessary resources and access to samples which they could test. If the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper is seriously flawed, then it would be so easy to demonstrate this with Officially sanctioned independent testing.

They simply do not want to discover that the Bentham paper is correct in its findings.

So I have to say DGM, the people whose activities I find to be suspicious, are those with the mandate but the apparent unwillingness to make any attempt to confirm or deny the findings in the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper!

MM
Hi MM,
A couple comments... Niels Harritt told me personally that the absence of any response to his paper for over two years is all the validation he needs (!!!!!!). There is no peer review, at least not one either I or Harritt have seen.

Their willingness to have their findings replicated is a matter of speculation at this point, as far as I can tell. If I find a method of testing the dust that is affordable and reliable, I will ask them and then you and I will both know.

You are right, there are other sources of WTC dust... RJ Lee, NIST, and individuals around the country. Several 9/11 Truth researchers have done experiments on them. As I said in my Skeptic Magazine article, "Attempts to independently replicate this experiment have been dismal. Mark Basile, who appeared in the acknowledgments of the original study, burned the chips in air, replicating the error of the original experiment and not even measuring the energy released. A chemist named Frédéric Henry-Couannier got another dust sample from the original experimenters and wrote, “Eventually the presence of nanothermite could not be confirmed.” The R.J. Lee Company did a 2003 study on the dust and didn’t find thermitic material." To my knowledge no one outside the "movement" has tried to replicate the experiment.

I am willing to organize an independent analysis of the dust and am prepared to accept the findings either way. I hope you will be too, if it happens.
 
I am willing to organize an independent analysis of the dust and am prepared to accept the findings either way. I hope you will be too, if it happens.

I find it interesting that MM considers my actions (or motives) to be suspect, considering I am on record (in this forum) as agreeing to kick into paying for these independent tests (an offer that still stands).

:confused:
 
"As I expected, you pretty much ignored my reply."
"No, I did not. What I did is not fall for your redirection. You answered the questions (I originally asked) with your reply "they are trying their best"."

Which was not my completed answer. Just enough for you to extract for another disingenuous response.

I attempted to give a full, thoughtful reply to your "My only question of you. Why are you NOT suspicious of THEIR activities?"

Well their activities are summed up in the findings of the Dr. Harrit et al Bentham paper Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9-11 WTC Catastrophe.

"Still, you don't mind asking dishonest questions.

They are dishonest questions because you have no genuine interest in hearing them answered."
"I never ask questions I don't want to hear answers to. I may not accept the answer but, that does not mean the question was dishonest."

You DGM prefaced that question by stating that Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones needed to be convinced about having an independent investigation.

You DGM also stated as a fact, that Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones refused to submit their work for peer-review. An outright lie.

And finally in your preface, You DGM stated as fact that Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones refused to allow independent access to their sample and that this had to mean they were hiding something.

"You pose a question about Dr. Harrit and Dr. Jones possibly hiding something because they are, according to you, effectively blocking a 3rd party investigation into their nanothermite findings.

Yet when I point out to you how easy it would be to expose them, that is, if your concerns were genuine, you deliberately ignore my response."
"No, Again I did not. I stated that the only "independent verification" I was aware of and as far as I know, they have refused to submit samples to anyone else. Have the offered samples to anyone for verification that I'm not aware of?"

So how can you justify making so many unsupported statements as fact when you characterize your knowledge now as; "the only "independent verification" I was aware of", and "as far as I know" and "verification that I'm not aware of?"

The facts are, Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones encourage independent investigations, have submitted their work to peer review, and are not blocking anyone from obtaining samples of WTC dust.

MM
 
Hi MM,
A couple comments... Niels Harritt told me personally that the absence of any response to his paper for over two years is all the validation he needs (!!!!!!). There is no peer review, at least not one either I or Harritt have seen.

Their willingness to have their findings replicated is a matter of speculation at this point, as far as I can tell. If I find a method of testing the dust that is affordable and reliable, I will ask them and then you and I will both know.

You are right, there are other sources of WTC dust... RJ Lee, NIST, and individuals around the country. Several 9/11 Truth researchers have done experiments on them. As I said in my Skeptic Magazine article, "Attempts to independently replicate this experiment have been dismal. Mark Basile, who appeared in the acknowledgments of the original study, burned the chips in air, replicating the error of the original experiment and not even measuring the energy released. A chemist named Frédéric Henry-Couannier got another dust sample from the original experimenters and wrote, “Eventually the presence of nanothermite could not be confirmed.” The R.J. Lee Company did a 2003 study on the dust and didn’t find thermitic material." To my knowledge no one outside the "movement" has tried to replicate the experiment.

I am willing to organize an independent analysis of the dust and am prepared to accept the findings either way. I hope you will be too, if it happens.

I concur, but only if those I trust are willing to place their stamp of approval on the scientists performing the independent analysis.

MM
 
The facts are, Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones encourage independent investigations, have submitted their work to peer review,
By "peer-review" you mean reviewed by people that also worked on the paper?

and are not blocking anyone from obtaining samples of WTC dust.

MM

You are right. And so far none have agreed with their results.
 
I concur, but only if those I trust are willing to place their stamp of approval on the scientists performing the independent analysis.

MM
And you don't see this as a problem. I thought you advocated having an "open mind"? Your statement here indicates that this is OK as long as people I trust say it's OK.


:rolleyes:
 
Thank you! :)

Gladly.

The red-gray chips are flakes of red primer paint on gray iron oxide. The iron oxide is the surface of structural steel from probably the floor joists, flaked off probably when the towers collapsed and all the floors got ground to pieces; thousands of tons of lightweight concrete in the floor slabs got intermingled with the joists and knocked paint off which could then join the dust ejecta.

They say "highly energetic" or some such nonsense, but it isn't really so. The whole "chips burned with extreme energy, so it has to be thermite which gets extremely hot" is flawed on several levels.
The only numerical measure of how energetic the chips are is their energy density: That's how much energy is released per mass unit when they burn.
First, the idea that thermite is "highly energetic" is not correct. Thermite does NOT have a high energy density, compared to other common materials. Ideal thermite has an energy density of 3.9 kJ/g (thousands of Joules per gram), actual thermite somewhat less, and nano-thermite, for various reasons, even less; one experimental source referenced by Harrit is a paper by Tillotson e.al. who measured 1.5kJ/g for their preparation of nano-thermite. This is very little compared to pretty much all organic materials: Fuels such as jet fuel have well over 40 kJ/g, many plastics in the range from 25-40 kJ/g, paper and wood in the vicinity of 18 kJ/g. Even your own body, despite it consisting of 60% water, has an average energy density of 8-10 kJ/g - burning human bodies is more "highly energetic" than even ideal thermite!
Secondly, the four chips that Harrit e.al. describe in their paper were measured with energy densities of 1.5, 3, 6 and 7.5 kJ/g. So at least 2 of the 4 samples are more energetic than even ideal thermite could ever be! This is clear-cut proof that the chips are not primarily fueled by their allegedly containing thermite - some other material MUST be the leading factor. Still, a max. energy density of 7.5 kJ/g is not remarkable - as I wrote above, that's less then what human tissue or paper have.
Thirdly, the XEDS spectra and the photomicrographs published by Harrit e.al. show that the red layer of the chips contain iron oxide and aluminium only as minority cosntituents. We have data by fellow truther Mark Basile, who is acknowledged in the Harrit paper and who says he repeated some of Harrit's experiments, that shows that only about 5%-10% by weight of the red layer could be thermite - the rest is silicon, carbon, excess oxigene... Further diluting the proportion of the energy thermite would add to the 1.5 - 7.5 kJ/g that were measured.
Fourthly, the gray layer is iron oxide without aluminium or anything else that coulkd react exothermically - that layer only adds dead, inert mass to the chips, which reduces even further the maximum energy output by mass unit that thermite could theoretically provide.
Fifthl,y Harrit e.al. do notice the organic matrix that really dominates the red layer, and do comment that they suspect it adds energy to the chip. What we know by now is that this organic matrix MUST provide well over 90% of the measured energy output. But as that output is only 7.5 kJ/g, a great number of very ordinary organic compounds could do that.

So what has our theory to say here? Well, we claim the red layer is 71.5% by weight epoxy. Epoxy is an organic compound that burns just as most organic compounds. Ivan has figured out that it ignites somewhere in the range 350°C to 450°C. It is sure to have an energy density that might be in the vicinity of 20 kJ/g. If you consider that maybe half the mass of the chips is inert iron oxide from the gray layer, and that 30% of the red layer is inert pigments, then 20 kJ/g for epoxy alone would dilute to at most roundabout 7 kJ/g for red paint on oxidized steel - just about what Harrit measured.

SUMMARY:
Epoxy-based paint is more energetoc than thermite. Since Harrit measured energy density exceeding the maximum that's theoretically possible for thermite, but being in good accorcance with what one could expect from epoxy-based paint on spalled steel, Harrit's theory is refuted, or theory is strengthened.
 
And you don't see this as a problem. I thought you advocated having an "open mind"? Your statement here indicates that this is OK as long as people I trust say it's OK.


:rolleyes:

Do you really think it is reasonable that I would accept the conclusions of people I do not trust?

MM
 
The facts are, Dr. Harrit & Dr. Jones encourage independent investigations, have submitted their work to peer review, and are not blocking anyone from obtaining samples of WTC dust.

Who "peer-reviewed" the Harrit et al. study?
 
Thank you! :)

Active Thermitic Material Discovered in Dust from the 9/11 World Trade Center Catastrophe said:
"It is striking that some of the red/gray chips release more energy in kJ/g than does ordinary thermite, as shown in the blue bar graphs above. The theoretical maximum for thermite is 3.9 kJ/g [27]. We suggest that the organic material in evidence in the red/gray chips is also highly energetic, most likely producing gas to provide explosive pressure. Again, conventional thermite is regarded as an incendiary whereas super-thermite, which may include organic ingredients for rapid gas generation, is considered a pyrotechnic or explosive [6, 24]. As this test was done in air it is possible that some of the enhancement of energy output may have come from air oxidation of the organic component."

Dr. Harrit's theory is not refuted.

MM
 
Do you really think it is reasonable that I would accept the conclusions of people I do not trust?

MM
Do you think it's reasonable for us to? You keep saying we don't have an "open mind" because we don't. How is it different if you don't?

What exactly is your definition of an "open mind"? It appears you have a bit of a double standard, It's OK for you to be selective but not so for people that don't think the same as you.
 
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Do you really think it is reasonable that I would accept the conclusions of people I do not trust?

MM
Let's see if at least some people on both sides will be able to at least partially trust the results of an independent dust analysis if I keep the process as objective as possible.
 

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