Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[RandFan]

John would hop in his limo and drive away.

Yet you posted his lyrics?

 

[stilicho]

Wait, what? He wasn't reporting that a "complex" had seized control. He was providing a warning. Big difference. BTW: Let's assume that Eisenhower was reporting his failure, it wouldn't invalidate his point. You are still engaging in ad hominem. It wouldn't render it "invalid" or irrelevant. Try again.


I think we have since failed. And we failed for banks. If they are too big to fail then they are unelected power and unwarranted influence.

Have you read "his" whole speech? During the 1950s, there was a strong current of belief that the Cold War was an illegitimate construct erected by infiltrators from Soviet Russia who had perverted the legitimate goal of rebuilding the global economy. It was a direct descendent of the "armaments conspiracy" and Red Scares of the 1920s and 1930s where your country's chief executives were called to answer to Congress for their alleged contribution to the outbreak of both world wars. Ike was talking nonsense as he was on his way out and had obliviously failed to say anything about this "complex" during the entire eight years he'd held office. They wrote it for him as a gigantic finger aimed at his critics who knew--as we do--that he was an awesome war hero but a pretty average president.

"His" exact words were subsequently hijacked in the 1960s by radicals to "prove" that Ike was somehow prescient whereas his speechwriters were really referring to the opposite of what they thought. Ike's writers were looking backwards and not forwards, since they thought that the US was about to get involved in yet another global conflict that they thought was purely the result of industrialists and had nothing to do with the ideological and military threats posed by the purveyors of fascism or communism.

You need to understand the context of the words and not just the spin put on them by subsequent interpreters.

 

[Virus]

With more than 70 years activist experience, 96 year old, Detroit philosopher, Grace Lee Boggs, offers this message to the 99%.

http://vimeo.com/31519206

"Out of the protests they have to move to another stage that doesn't depend on exposing the enemy. We need to reinvent work - so that we don't think that having a job and being able to pay the bills is what being a human being is all about..."
....

"not being satisfied with rebellion but understand we are at a turning point in history where we need revolution...and revolution means reinventing culture."

Great idea. Really. Excellelent idea.
Just one minor drawback: It's a bunch of crap that doesn't mean anything.

 

[stilicho]

In NYC the proposal is to turn Zuccotti Park into a Chinese commune from the 1950s and 1960s. Strip away people's privacy by taking down the individual tents and replacing them with a few giant tents (segregated by sex).

It's either 1950s Red China or grade school in years past where they had separate yards for the boys and the girls. Perhaps it's reminiscent of a Canadian saloon law from the 1920s where each tavern had two entrances: Gentlemen, and Ladies & Escorts.

Any word on whether they're going to issue uniforms?

 

[bikerdruid]

Great idea. Really. Excellelent idea.
Just one minor drawback: It's a bunch of crap that doesn't mean anything.

perhaps you need to reread it.
...there are none so blind....

 

[stilicho]

Great idea. Really. Excellelent idea.
Just one minor drawback: It's a bunch of crap that doesn't mean anything.

Actually it does. A return to feudalism can't happen quickly enough for JihadJane and her ilk. Medieval Europe is one of the few times in history you could properly argue that the labour theory of value was valid.

 

[eeyore1954]

I don't give a damn. It's entirely irrelevant. A red herring. You want to focus on the fact that these were just prelimenary records as if it is significant. It's not.

And we can read the destroyed records because? There's a reason why we don't destroy records. Look, the investigation might uncover what was discovered before but I've a question, how cooperative are the investigators that are now being investigated? No harm no foul right? Destroy the records and hey, if they can't figure it out no problem. Sheesh.

Proof that most of them are?

You don't care and it is a red herring, why did you say it?

 

[applecorped]

Yet you posted his lyrics?

People change, right Rand?

From wiki:

When the single version was released in August, the political left viewed it as betraying their cause. The release of the album version in November indicated Lennon's uncertainty about destructive change, with the phrase "count me out" modified to "count me out, in". In 1987, the song became the first Beatles recording to be licensed for a television commercial, which prompted a lawsuit from the surviving members of the group.


But if you go carrying pictures of chairman Mao
You ain't going to make it with anyone anyhow

 

[Virus]

Actually it does. A return to feudalism can't happen quickly enough for JihadJane and her ilk. Medieval Europe is one of the few times in history you could properly argue that the labour theory of value was valid.

All of the 20th century totalitarians were nostalgic for the past while wishing to leap into a sci-fi future. The Marxists were nostalgic for the quaint peasants and artisans of medieval Europe.

 

[stilicho]

With more than 70 years activist experience, 96 year old, Detroit philosopher, Grace Lee Boggs, offers this message to the 99%.

http://vimeo.com/31519206

"Out of the protests they have to move to another stage that doesn't depend on exposing the enemy. We need to reinvent work - so that we don't think that having a job and being able to pay the bills is what being a human being is all about..."
....

"not being satisfied with rebellion but understand we are at a turning point in history where we need revolution...and revolution means reinventing culture."

Who is this person, Grace Lee Boggs?

She believes that 21st century cities should become self-reliant at the local community level, resisting a global economy that brings in casino gambling and sports stadia as local "industries," which breed more crime and violence.

She doesn't like gambling or sports. That's rather un-American right there, isn't it?

(Source: http://www.brynmawr.edu/alumnae/bulletin/choice1.htm )

She's a Trotskyist (whatever that is) which means that if she had tried what she's alleged to have tried in the US in the Soviet Union then she'd have been put to death by Stalin. Is JihadJane also a Trotskyist?

Apparently, she's also a racist:

Growing up in an all-Caucasian community, she had no role models.

Do I have to have all my role models from my own ethnic group?

 

[Brainster]

All of the 20th century totalitarians are nostalgic for the past while wishing to leap into a sci-fi future. The Marxists were nostalgic for the quaint peasants and artisans of medieval Europe.

This movement seems a natural fit for the Zeitgeist cranks. I see them recruiting often in the various OWS chatrooms. What could be more natural than that a bunch of "we don't want to work" punks would fall in with the "we'll let the robots do all the work" nutbars.

 

[stilicho]

All of the 20th century totalitarians were nostalgic for the past while wishing to leap into a sci-fi future. The Marxists were nostalgic for the quaint peasants and artisans of medieval Europe.

Marx himself appeared to be perplexed that lower life-forms such as the bourgeoisie, enabled through the Napoleonic revolutions, could ascend to positions of power while the workers always went home happy after they got their loaves of bread. Recent UK rioters bragged that they'd looted shops just to get free flat-screen TVs and were apparently quite content paying the evil capitalists for the cable conduits that would make them work. I can guarantee you that if you gave out free iPads to everyone assembled in the squares that they'd all go home tomorrow. The "revolution" is really just an Oprah audience with dreadlocks and hackey-sacks.

 

[Virus]

I see radical left-wing ideology as analogous to Medieval Christianity. It's like Christianity for people who don't believe in God. It has the guilt, the original sin, the indulgences, the salvation, the sectarianism, the true-believers and heretics. The doctrines, the prophets. The apocalypse (look at Jihadjane's signature). The paradise.

People in the Middle Ages would atone for sin by fasting, prayer, living a frugal life for a few months, or going on a pilgrimage, or simply paying the Church. This OWS movement is like a pilgrimage and indulgence for the children of well-off parents. They "hate" the system, but they love to live in it. The freedom of the system allows them to "hate" it. They feel guilty about it so they pay penance by living like a homeless person. But a homeless person with an generator to charge his iPhone.

Pascal Bruckner writes some stuff on this and Victor Davis Hanson also sees the analogy;

http://pjmedia.com/victordavishanson/liberal-indulgences/

 

[Brainster]

Something for everyone in two new polls on the OWS movement.

CNN reports:

As Americans learn more about Occupy Wall Street, they are becoming more supportive of the movement's positions, according to a new poll from ORC International.

The new poll also shows more Americans supporting the movement. Thirty-six percent say they agree with the overall positions of Occupy Wall Street, while 19% say they disagree.

Meanwhile, Quinnipiac comes to precisely the opposite conclusion from its own poll:

By a 39 - 30 percent margin, American voters have an unfavorable opinion of the Occupy Wall Street movement, with 30 percent who don't know enough about it for an opinion.

Couldn't find crosstabs for the ORC poll; CNN doesn't provide a link. The Quinnipiac crosstabs are unsurprising as to party breakdown, with Republicans very negative towards OWS (6.7-1), while Democrats are positive (2-1). Income trends are a bit surprising; those earning over $100K are more likely to be favorable than those earning less than $30K. On the other hand, negatives also go up with income, but the net negative is strongest (-13%) among the middle class ($30-$50K).

 

[stilicho]

This movement seems a natural fit for the Zeitgeist cranks. I see them recruiting often in the various OWS chatrooms. What could be more natural than that a bunch of "we don't want to work" punks would fall in with a "we'll let the robots do all the work" nutbars.

And none of them have read Karel Capek's play where the concept of "robots" originated, either. I doubt they know what the word "dystopia" means, either.

It's a mockery that the US media has been thoroughly absorbed with the machinations of these Occupy charlatans when real revolutionaries in Syria are being daily repressed, rooted out, imprisoned, tortured, and slain.

Shame.

 

[stilicho]

Something for everyone in two new polls on the OWS movement.

CNN reports:



Meanwhile, Quinnipiac comes to precisely the opposite conclusion from its own poll:



Couldn't find crosstabs for the ORC poll; CNN doesn't provide a link. The Quinnipiac crosstabs are unsurprising as to party breakdown, with Republicans very negative towards OWS (6.7-1), while Democrats are positive (2-1). Income trends are a bit surprising; those earning over $100K are more likely to be favorable than those earning less than $30K. On the other hand, negatives also go up with income, but the net negative is strongest (-13%) among the middle class ($30-$50K).

The income break isn't surprising at all, Brainster.

The problem is that the 1% is in the first quintile but they only comprise 5% of it. They only comprise 2.5% of the top two quintiles. The people who have the most to gain from some sort of Occupy Everything tax scheme or wealth redistribution are those who are just close enough to the 1% to smell it. In fact, those people are the most likely to insist on the 1% idea and ignore those just short of that bracket. They won't be out tenting on the concrete but they'll gladly go out and press the flesh.

 

[respect]

Wow, sir, I think thou doth protest a bit too much. BTW, I've made the point about hedging many times. Including in this thread. Hedging takes on an ominous tone when you know that it's likely to fail. No one can certainly argue about to what degree those who sold the derivatives knew they were going to fail. But I don't think it is at all a leap, IMO.

Oh, I owe you a bit of an apology. I did ask that you demonstrate that you understood the gist of the authors argument. You have done that admirably and I appreciate it. Didn't need quite that much but my criticism is probably undeserved. Sorry.

Thank you for acknowledging that.

If Taibbi or anyone else has evidence that banks were defrauding customers they should bring it to the attention of proper authorities. But hedging, and even trading securities they only bet against, are not evidence of that. In fact, both would be meaningless in principle to deliberately misleading customers about a security, that would be fraud even if they took the same position their customer did.

 

[Stout]

Well, the Occupy Victoria thing is sandwiched among the hardcore drug dealers, pimps, and hookers on one side and the drunken post-closing Government Street mob on the other. Personally I would have selected Goldstream and up towards the Malahat. No drunks. No drug-dealers. Scads of spectacular scenery.

Victoria natives are notoriously skittish whenever the wind blows a little cold; they'll be off the pavement and back home eating Mum's lamb stew in Oak Bay in no time flat.

Most of the "protesters" only had to walk two blocks from their normal camping places outside the McDonald's and the Mac's anyhow.

Yes, it's a rather unfortunate choice of location, but I'm sure they knew what they were getting into when they picked it. I'm thinking occupy the western communities would be a good move, maybe a park in langford, say the corner of Veteran's and Memorial. No bar crowd, no wandering homeless, aw crap, to many homes in the immediate vicinity. oh well.

Yesterday, I was going to post that they don't deem to be doing much of anything, activist wise merely existing and calling an emergency meeting because their water and electricity were cut off but today I see they've got a lecture series lined up. One lecture every saturday with this saturday's ending in a "march on the banks"

All their daily schedule seems to read is eat, sleep, talk.

 

[respect]

Ad hominem. And while the author has an argument to make that she makes it doesn't make Taibbi wrong, it certainly doesn't make him an idiot. Pick any writer, say Dawkins for instance, and I will likely be able to find a critic who is capable of making compelling arguments against them. That wouldn't make Dawkins an expert. And to be sure Dawkins, being human, makes mistakes.

The disagreement between Taibbi and the author is not as black and white as you demand it is.
If Taibbi did make a mistake he wouldn't be the first human to do so and that alone wouldn't call into question everything else he has said.

Bottom line, you are engaging in ad hominem poisoning the well.

But I appreciate your taking the time to read the article and make an argument demonstrating you understand the article. Thank you.

I think that Taibbi is an idiot or deliberately dishonest because his articles are routinely full of such errors and/or half stories.

For instance, he will allege that so and so Wall Street firm committed so and so crime then ask why no one is in prison. This is pretty much all any of his readers will see. If they take the time to look farther they will find that Taibbi's assertions are being investigated or have been, but he doesn't bother to tell his readers that. For example, he cries a lot in one article about Lehman Brothers and their Repo 105 accounting trick and wants to know why no one is in prison. He can't be bothered to tell his readers that it was extensively investigated and authorities felt they could not make a successful criminal case. However distasteful it may have been, they can't successfully bring charges when it was legal. Taibbi, of course, did not mention the investigations in his article, either he couldn't be bothered to look or it didn't fit the biased propaganda he was spewing. Either way, the guy is a joke. If it was a matter of errors here and there it would be one thing but it isn't, everything he writes is biased garbage full of factual errors and blatant omissions that any competent journalist would have found and included.

The author I cited did make a glaring error, Ann Coulter is a much better comparison than Sarah Palin. They are both hack "journalists" who preach to a choir, and even then, the members of the choir have to have little to no knowledge of what they are preaching about to take them seriously.

 

[respect]

[qimg]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9647/welfarefortherichisokay.jpg[/qimg]

But forget that, let's talk about the damn dirty hippies.

Right, Taibbi thinks that loans are welfare. The guy is an idiot.