Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

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I didn't ask for that. It's easy to argue via link especially when you are not even able to understand the content of the link. All I ask is that instead of posting a link in drive by fashion that you actually demonstrate that you understand the article in question. Do you?

I think that she makes some good points about the grandeur he applies to Goldman Sachs, but the more significant ones are elsewhere as he seems to be one of the major causes of misunderstandings and misinformation being spread to people who don't know better.

1. She is quite right that there was never any secret about bad mortgages. Many people are up in arms about investments lumping bad mortgages with good but that was entirely the point, to offset the risk of the bad by pooling it with the good.

2. This is more important as many people seem to make this mistake, and perhaps all Taibbi fans do, regardless if it is because he is dishonest or foolish, there is nothing sinister about hedging. People, especially Taibbi, get all up in arms because banks held, and, gasp, even sell investments they bet against. Of course they do, being upset about this is complete nonsense. Hedging is a common investment strategy. One can only imagine the tantrum Taibbi will throw if a grown up sits him down and explains to him what hedge funds do. He either does not understand what he is bitching and crying about, or worse, he does and he is deliberately misleading his readers into believing that hedging is evil and sinister. As I said, it is a very common investment strategy, so common that it is where hedge funds get their name.

And it is hardly limited to securities investments. Sports books, both the legal and illegal variety, sell bets to each other to hedge all of the time. A typical bookie rate is 10%. That is what they want, 10% of the action, not to win or lose based on the outcome of the game. If the Dallas Cowboys and Chicago Bears were playing this week Dallas bookies would see excessive betting on the Cowboys and Chicago bookies on the Bears, they then trade bets with each other to balance their book as much as they can so that they can all make the 10% fee without being hammered if the home team covers.

Taibbi might as well scream and cry when people insure their house and car, it is hedging. They are protecting their investment from some sort of failure.

Hedging with investments is no different. How you will hedge will of course depend what the investment is, what you want from it, and how much potential loss you want to protect against. For instance, you could buy a stock looking to collect annual dividends from it and hedge against a decline in the value of the shares themselves.

It sure sounds sinister when Taibbi talks about it, but it isn't because, he just always presents everything in an extremely biased manner. Truth be told, if banks could not hedge investments, like he and many like minded people want, we would be bailing them out a lot more often.

Additionally, she is also right that banks do not need to hold something they facilitate trades with anyway. There is no legal requirement to do so and it would be quite obnoxious if there were. Just to buy a stock you would first have to find a broker who held the stock themselves, you wouldn't be able to hire a middle man to find someone who held the stock.

The way Taibbi presents his claims about hedging is extremely misleading. I don't know if it is because he is just an idiot who doesn't understand what he is whining about or if it is because he is deliberately dishonest and I don't care, the brat is a hack.
 
Well, hang on, you did conclude that Taibbi is an idiot. If your source otherwise agrees with Taibbi it calls into question the conclusion. Perhaps you could have noted that Taibbi isn't always right and capable of error. What do you think?

Otherwise your point seems to simply be poisoning the well. Taibbi is wrong about X therefore Taibbi is an idiot and we can't trust him on anything else. Right?

You really can't trust him if he hasn't just been mouthing off about things he doesn't understand.
 
Indeed, I just thought that it would be worthwhile to point out Megan McArdle's thoughts about Wall Street, as you seem to hold her economic analysis in some esteem.

I don't know all about her views on everything, in that article she wasn't saying much I didn't already know, but she did it in a more articulate way than I would have.

And there is plenty of reason to be pissed without spewing nonsense like Taibbi does.

Regardless of fraud or anything else, over leveraging themselves is something banks should know better than to do. We, as a country, should never have been put in a position of having to bail them out. And we pretty much did, despite what Ron Paul fans think, widespread banking collapses are bad news, the recession now is a walk in the park compared to the potential trouble.
 
And a fresh group of people joining the unemployment ranks:

Mark Epstein, owner of the Milk Street Cafe at 40 Wall Street, just let 21 employees go.

The reason? The barricades police have set up throughout Wall Street as a consequence of the ongoing demonstration.
 
I don't buy that. It's a statistical thing. I think to survive the status quo just need continue. Things getting worse will simply increase the likelyhood of its survival.

Odd thing is, I would VERY MUCH like for things to get better and OWS die. That would make me happy. Are the powers that be likely to actually do something to fix anything? That's the important question.

I honestly don't think most politicians give a damn about anything or anyone except the people who pay for their campaigns and what the people who pay for their campaigns want. Sadly most campaign money comes from those who want the status quo. Those who don't give a rats ass about people out of work.

God forbid that the rich should sacrifice one goddamn dime more than they already are. Because we all know that for the rich there is no such thing as enough.

How do we fix it though? Why aren't they fixing it? There must be a reason right? Let's see if we can figure out what it might be that's causing all these problems that aren't getting fixed. I read through most of this thread, and it seems like you like numbers, I like what's behind the numbers, what they mean.

First off, as that chart posted earlier showed, the rich get richer faster than the poor get richer. It wouldn't make any sense if it worked any other way, would it? Shouldn't it be easier to make money if you already have some to start with? So complaining about that doesn't do much good, it's not a zero-sum game, and that money made whether spent, invested or saved contributes to the economy one way or another. Unless of course they're sending that money overseas, that's bad, it would be much nicer if they were investing it here, wouldn't it? Why aren't they?

Probably for the same reasons banks and financiers are sitting around scheming up new ways to make pretend money before it all falls apart. Go ahead, pass the Volker rule that'll only hurt a little bit, what's a billion dollars anyway? Probably a billion reasons for them to sit around dreaming new ways to make it back, but nevermind about that, maybe it will do some good, but it won't solve the problem, will it? Why aren't banks making money the way they normally do? Why are they trying to nickle and dime people with annoying fees and Enroning it the rest of the time?

Why aren't they lending money to businesses and homeowners existing or prospective to stimulate the economy, usually banks are the good guys, annoying as they can be sometimes. Maybe it has something to do with the reason that capital above is fleeing? Maybe it is related to why interest rates are in a trough? They can't make much money lending it anymore, and no one seems all that anxious to borrow it, that's not how it's supposed to work, is it? With interest rates so low people ought to be just smacking their lips at the opportunity to borrow money and invest it in new goods and services, but they're not.

The hell with them both, let's just take it! Why if we liquidated the Fortune Four Hundred, who had a very good year in 2010, we could pay the budget deficit for an entire year! Actually no, probably not, it's probably not all fungible and in the process of crashing the stock market we'd lose some there, and as noted before some is overseas already. So we'd only partially pay off the budget deficit, in exchange for crashing the stock market, but who cares about that, they're the rich anyway, aren't they? :)

So don your sans-culottes and grab your pitchfork, we can take it all! How much can we get if we take everything we can from the top 1%? Let's see, as of the second quarter of 2011 it appears the total net wealth in the US is on the order of 60 trillion dollars, traditionally the top 1% has about a third of that, so let's say 20 trillion as a nice round figure. Since we already soaked the richest 400 for 1.5 trillion and crashed the stock market, maybe we'll have enough to pay off the federal debt at 15 trillion! No, probably not, again most of those assets probably aren't fungible anyway, but let's give it to you anyway.

So now we've paid the federal budget deficit for one year, paid off the national debt, however we still have a budged deficit on the order of 1.4 trillion...oh...wait. That top 1% has no money anymore, we ate it up! This is going to cause a problem, because they paid a wildly disproportionate share of total income tax revenues. That's OK, they only paid 28% of total federal revenues, there's all sorts of other ways the feds raise revenue. So the annual budget deficit will probably only go up what, 600 billion as a conservative figure, giving us a 2 trillion dollar annual deficit? Of course that doesn't account for all the jobs lost and (mainly) payroll and income taxes lost from the corporations and associated businesses that were charbroiled so we could eat the rich.

So what has been accomplished other than to take the money out of the hands of the best producers and managers of money in the nation and hand it to the most profligate spenders who simply cannot manage money responsibly and whose assets and liabilities (!) outweigh what the rich can earn and what they actually own in fungible assets? Was this necessarily a good idea? I know the idea isn't to do this all at once, but it's to do it gradually, isn't it? What makes you think this is wise economic strategy even in piecemeal? Is it greed, envy or hate, the purest of human motives? :p

It seems to me our problem is that we need to get the economy moving, the classic Keynesian formula to get out of a recession is to cut taxes and increase government spending, except we've a problem, we've discovered a corollary to Keynes' theorem: 'government spending is not adjustable in a downward direction.' (page [22) Now it has finally reached a point where we can't let interest rates rise, as look at this chart and note how manageable that debt servicing seems to be. 250 billion? Pah! Except there's a problem, it's not real, and it can't last. Interest rates now are so low that outside factors beyond our control from a variety of different sources could cause interest rates to rise, and raising them as monetary policy would be dangerous, that debt servicing could triple in short order.


If we cut taxes, the easiest way to do that is to lower income taxes, but if you've followed those links, any significant tax decrease will go to the rich, because they're the ones that actually pay the vast majority of income taxes, that is the top 10% of earners. If you want to cut payroll taxes, which would help everyone and increase consumption, you run into wailing from certain quarters about the accounting fiction that is the 'social security and medicare trust funds,' I don't know if you realize it, but that's simply imaginary, all payouts to social security, medicare and all other entitlements come out of the general revenue, but it's a popular scare tactic. Other taxes such as the gasoline tax might help, but still to actually get the economy moving in the right direction vast amounts of capital being freed up and invested in new and existing businesses provides the most bang for the buck, and that means cutting taxes for the rich, which might put you and your friends into apoplexy.

Other problems have arisen due to about 50 billion dollars a year being sucked out of the country from the most vulnerable sector of the economy, low-end jobs filled by guest workers and the like taking jobs from entry level employees and forcing wages down where it hurts poor Americans the most. Page 6 shows the money flowing out, (remittances) and the 'contributions' to the economy is neutral as that would be filled by a person who wouldn't be sending ~50 billion per year out of the country, thus it judges the economic impact of these programs, almost 500 billion per year, driving down wages and filling jobs. If the unemployment rate is baseline, then it's not a problem, if its been above the natural unemployment rate, then it is, do we need more wage deflation in that sector? However no one wants to do anything about that for political reasons.

Another problem is we've been running mass trade deficits for so long we don't realize that another 500 billion or so per year is headed overseas. That's a boon in one respect, we get cheap crap from China and elsewhere, but it makes manufacturing in the United States a very risky proposition, which is why the share of the manufacturing economy has fallen so steeply. That costs jobs and also lowers wages for the working classes. However we can't do too much about that if you read those links on the government debt, look who owns so much of it, and were we to try a Smoot-Hawley, we might just find our interest rate raised for us overnight as billions of dollars of treasury bonds are dumped into the market. So we might just be afraid to do something about that also for political reasons.

So, how does blaming the banks help all this, or for that matter the rich? It's like your car broke down and you're banging on the engine with a monkey wrench and asking for a blowtorch. It won't do any good, it will likely send the economy back into recession and what it needs right now is growth before the inevitable rise of interest rates cause that debt servicing to explode. Ask the government to solve some of the structural problems of the economy instead of giving you a bogeyman to hate. :)
 
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I don't know all about her views on everything, in that article she wasn't saying much I didn't already know, but she did it in a more articulate way than I would have.

And there is plenty of reason to be pissed without spewing nonsense like Taibbi does.

Regardless of fraud or anything else, over leveraging themselves is something banks should know better than to do. We, as a country, should never have been put in a position of having to bail them out. And we pretty much did, despite what Ron Paul fans think, widespread banking collapses are bad news, the recession now is a walk in the park compared to the potential trouble.

I have not read all that Taibbi has written on the financial crisis and related matters, however, I did find the following article interesting and insightful:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...a-goes-all-out-for-dirty-banker-deal-20110824

You see, I entertain the perhaps naive hope that OWS has something to do with these kinds of issues. I have seen enough evidence that there are plenty of protesters who 'get it'; of course the protest has also attracted a multitude of folk and hangers-on.

As for bail-outs, the question is why were the big banks not broken up after the bail-outs? Why does the US (and Europe for that matter) still have TBTF banks? Are we going to be put in the position of 'having' to bail them out again (which must be a strong possibility looking at the European situation) and if we are, who is to blame for putting us into that position? If the financial system fails and we get widespread banking collapses, even though we had the 2008/09 bail-outs, then the level of outrage is going to increase and justly so. 'Banks got bailed out, people got sold out' has been a popular cry of the protesters. If only they'd been around in 2009, we might not be in the position we are now.
 
I keep forgetting that too, then I catch myself and try not to dump in too much occupy Canada stuff

Oops, can't resist.

According to a report on the radio this morning, our local occupy Victoria group had to call the police 8 times this past weekend. They've been letting the homeless hang around but the drug use is getting to be a little too much.

The cops say it's a confusing situation, they have campers calling them to evict other campers.

Umm yea, that "on Indian time thing" Bikerdurid will clear that up for us.

Well, the Occupy Victoria thing is sandwiched among the hardcore drug dealers, pimps, and hookers on one side and the drunken post-closing Government Street mob on the other. Personally I would have selected Goldstream and up towards the Malahat. No drunks. No drug-dealers. Scads of spectacular scenery.

Victoria natives are notoriously skittish whenever the wind blows a little cold; they'll be off the pavement and back home eating Mum's lamb stew in Oak Bay in no time flat.

Most of the "protesters" only had to walk two blocks from their normal camping places outside the McDonald's and the Mac's anyhow.
 
I have not read all that Taibbi has written on the financial crisis and related matters, however, I did find the following article interesting and insightful:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politic...a-goes-all-out-for-dirty-banker-deal-20110824

It is more of the same stupid crap, everyone is dirty, blah blah blah, and then this pile of ****:

"The issue goes beyond fraudulent paperwork to an intentional, far-reaching theft scheme designed to take junk subprime loans and disguise them as AAA-rated investments. The banks lent money to corrupt companies like Countrywide, who made masses of bad loans and immediately sold them back to the banks.

The banks in turn hid the crappiness of these loans via certain poorly-understood nuances in the securitization process – this is almost certainly where Scheniderman’s investigators are doing their digging – before hawking the resultant securities as AAA-rated gold to fools in places like the Florida state pension fund."

Of course there was bad mortgages mixed in, that was the whole ******* point, they didn't lose value because of defaults, they lost value because the collateral lost value overall, good mortgages and bad. It isn't like pension managers are a bunch of bumbling idiots who had no idea what they were buying. Taibbi is an idiot or a liar.

You see, I entertain the perhaps naive hope that OWS has something to do with these kinds of issues. I have seen enough evidence that there are plenty of protesters who 'get it'; of course the protest has also attracted a multitude of folk and hangers-on.

As for bail-outs, the question is why were the big banks not broken up after the bail-outs? Why does the US (and Europe for that matter) still have TBTF banks? Are we going to be put in the position of 'having' to bail them out again (which must be a strong possibility looking at the European situation) and if we are, who is to blame for putting us into that position? If the financial system fails and we get widespread banking collapses, even though we had the 2008/09 bail-outs, then the level of outrage is going to increase and justly so. 'Banks got bailed out, people got sold out' has been a popular cry of the protesters. If only they'd been around in 2009, we might not be in the position we are now.

Regulations can be discussed, especially about over leveraging (how they actually got in trouble), but I have seen little evidence that any protesters "get it" at all.
 
If we were to go after all the malfeasance on Wall Street it would result in a rise of anti-Semitism. I think this is the reason there has not been any prosecutions for those who have ruined this nation's economy.
 
'St Paul's and Corporation of London halt legal action against Occupy camp
Cathedral announces U-turn and initiative to 'reconnect financial with the ethical' – but corporation qualifies its move as a 'pause'
'

"Activists campaigning against financial inequality and banking excesses look set to remain camped outside St Paul's cathedral well into next year after both the church and the Corporation of London, which jointly own the land the protesters have occupied for more than two weeks, said they were halting moves to evict them."


'The medieval, unaccountable Corporation of London is ripe for protest
Working beyond the authority of parliament, the Corporation of London undermines all attempts to curb the excesses of finance
'

"... the Corporation exists outside many of the laws and democratic controls which govern the rest of the United Kingdom. The City of London is the only part of Britain over which parliament has no authority."
 
Lifestyles of the rich and fatuous? All this slide show needs is a Robin Leech voiceover; the accompanying text notes:

Among addresses for which information is available, single-family homes listed on those police intake forms have a median value of $305,000 — a far higher number than the $185,400 median value of owner-occupied housing units in the United States.

Some of the homes where “Occupy” arrestees reside, viewed through Google Maps and the Multiple Listing Service real estate database, are the definition of opulence.
 
Redistributing wealth to the rich.

welfarefortherichisokay.jpg


The Real Housewives of Wall Street

But if you want to get a true sense of what the "shadow budget" is all about, all you have to do is look closely at the taxpayer money handed over to a single company that goes by a seemingly innocuous name: Waterfall TALF Opportunity. At first glance, Waterfall's haul doesn't seem all that huge — just nine loans totaling some $220 million, made through a Fed bailout program. That doesn't seem like a whole lot, considering that Goldman Sachs alone received roughly $800 billion in loans from the Fed. But upon closer inspection, Waterfall TALF Opportunity boasts a couple of interesting names among its chief investors: Christy Mack and Susan Karches.


Christy is the wife of John Mack, the chairman of Morgan Stanley. Susan is the widow of Peter Karches, a close friend of the Macks who served as president of Morgan Stanley's investment-banking division. Neither woman appears to have any serious history in business, apart from a few philanthropic experiences. Yet the Federal Reserve handed them both low-interest loans of nearly a quarter of a billion dollars through a complicated bailout program that virtually guaranteed them millions in risk-free income.
But forget that, let's talk about the damn dirty hippies.
 
The way Taibbi presents his claims about hedging is extremely misleading. I don't know if it is because he is just an idiot who doesn't understand what he is whining about or if it is because he is deliberately dishonest and I don't care, the brat is a hack.
Wow, sir, I think thou doth protest a bit too much. BTW, I've made the point about hedging many times. Including in this thread. Hedging takes on an ominous tone when you know that it's likely to fail. No one can certainly argue about to what degree those who sold the derivatives knew they were going to fail. But I don't think it is at all a leap, IMO.

Oh, I owe you a bit of an apology. I did ask that you demonstrate that you understood the gist of the authors argument. You have done that admirably and I appreciate it. Didn't need quite that much but my criticism is probably undeserved. Sorry.
 
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You really can't trust him if he hasn't just been mouthing off about things he doesn't understand.
Ad hominem. And while the author has an argument to make that she makes it doesn't make Taibbi wrong, it certainly doesn't make him an idiot. Pick any writer, say Dawkins for instance, and I will likely be able to find a critic who is capable of making compelling arguments against them. That wouldn't make Dawkins an expert. And to be sure Dawkins, being human, makes mistakes.

The disagreement between Taibbi and the author is not as black and white as you demand it is.
If Taibbi did make a mistake he wouldn't be the first human to do so and that alone wouldn't call into question everything else he has said.

Bottom line, you are engaging in ad hominem poisoning the well.

But I appreciate your taking the time to read the article and make an argument demonstrating you understand the article. Thank you.
 
Thanks, sincerely, but first, a bit of advice...

Hey, I can be wordy also. Still, I'm willing to bet you could have shortened that by about two thirds at least. That's time I don't think I'll ever get back. :)

So, how does blaming the banks help all this...
I can only shake my head. The mess we are in is due to a very complex dynamic. Simply blaming the banks would be stupid.

In any event, blurring the lines between banking, insurance and investing was a major cause of the problem we now face (your treatise not withstanding)

...or for that matter the rich?
Straw man. I'm not blaming the rich. I'm saying we need to raise tax rates and we needed to do it 10 years ago. Okay, we F'ed up and doubled down 8 years ago after our first cluster @#$% and then for the next 8 years stubbornly clung to stupid.

Can we raise the rates already?

Ask the government to solve some of the structural problems of the economy instead of giving you a bogeyman to hate.
I reject that. Look, I'm 50 and was a staunch conservative until about 47-49. Not exactly sure when it all went south (or left). I get the memes. I know the propaganda. I understand the arguments. I grew up reading Thomas Sowell, Adam Smith and Ayn Rand (see my user name). You've told me nothing I don't know or didn't once believe.

I don't see the rich as boogeymen (yes I do know the etymology but prefer boogeymen). I blame govt for the problem. I blame the people for voting for asses that allow hedge fund managers to only pay 15% taxes on their income.

So, adjust your argument, shorten it, and we can discuss it further.

Again, thank you. Your post was, in the least, an attempt to engage in discussion and not simply ad hominem as so many other posters prefer.
 
[qimg]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/9647/welfarefortherichisokay.jpg[/qimg]

But forget that, let's talk about the damn dirty hippies.

Taibbi doesn't know anything about finance and toxic assets. How are you going to get anybody to buy bad loans, unless:

a) They are rich
b) You provide them with a limited downside.

Taibbi of course wants to focus on the $220 million they were loaned; but he's at least fair in noting:

But with an upfront investment of $15 million, they quickly received $220 million in cash from the Fed, most of which they used to purchase student loans and commercial mortgages.

So they put $15 million of their own money at risk. Note that carefully. If the deal doesn't work out, they've lost that money. Now let's move on to what they bought with the combined $235 million:

But before long, the Fed began buying up every distressed investment on Wall Street, even those that were in no danger of widespread defaults: commercial real estate loans, credit- card loans, auto loans, student loans, even loans backed by the Small Business Administration.

No danger of widespread default on commercial real estate loans? Now as it happens, that is a field in which I have 33 years of experience. And although the commercial mortgage defaults have not gotten anywhere near the ink that the residential mortgage defaults have, they are just as dramatic.

For starters, consider commercial and multifamily (i.e., apartment complex) loans held in CMBS pools (download the PDF file). In the fourth quarter of 2007, the 30-day or greater delinquent or REO (foreclosed) rate on those loans was 0.39%. In the fourth quarter of 2008 it was 1.17%. In the fourth quarter of 2009 it was 5.7%. In the fourth quarter of 2010 it was 8.95%. As of today, it's 9.45%. Jeez, Matt, that sure sounds like a widespread default rate to me!

Taibbi moans about how the loans were non-recourse. Well duh! If you are going to get wealthy individuals to buy up crappy loan portfolios, do you really think they aren't going to want to limit their risk? The two women put up $15 million; apparently that's all they were willing to lose. Note as well that it's not as if they were able to keep the $220 million in their bank accounts and not pay it back; they used the money to buy those crappy loans and gave those loans to the Fed as security:

If Hedge Fund Goon decides not to repay that $100 million, the Fed simply keeps its pile of crappy securities and calls everything even.

Bolding added for emphasis.
 
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