Occupy Wall Street better defend its identity

[RandFan]

I chatted with the local group online last night while they had their general assembly. Not only couldn't they get agreement on putting together a police liason committee, they actively opposed it on the basis that nobody could speak for the group. I tried to point out gently that the liason could just be a point of contact with no real authority to negotiate, but they voted it down en masse.

I hear you. I was chatting with a group of tea partiers they could not agree whether they should support OWS or not. Humans are funny.

 

[theprestige]

I hear you. I was chatting with a group of tea partiers they could not agree whether they should support OWS or not. Humans are funny.

The Tea Partiers probably had concrete policy proposals in mind, and were having trouble figuring out if supporting OWS meant supporting like-minded people, people with conflicting proposals, or people with no proposals at all.

 

[A Laughing Baby]

Any and all social movements have conflicting views on what tangible outcomes should be worked toward. It is a struggle that all movements face and must overcome in order to affect actual change. For a simple/famous dichotomous example, look at MLK/Malcolm X.

 

[Checkmite]

We want the jobs bill implemented. Raise tax rates. Investigate the corruption in the banking industry and wall street.

Holy schnapps, is that a set of specific demands? Jesus Christ on a Maypole, somebody ring the church bells and rouse the village.

...wait, those demands are shared by the entire "OWS" movement, yes?

 

[Checkmite]

Any and all social movements have conflicting views on what tangible outcomes should be worked toward. It is a struggle that all movements face and must overcome in order to affect actual change. For a simple/famous dichotomous example, look at MLK/Malcolm X.

Yeah well, the difference is that MLK and Malcolm X weren't content to simply stand as one and agree that blacks needed equal rights and politely refrain from discussing the different routes they each believed would take them there for the sake of maintaining a large-looking "cohesive" body. MLK went his way, and Malcolm X went his way; they took their followers with them and started working towards a solution instead of merely screaming that there's a problem.

 

[RandFan]

Holy schnapps, is that a set of specific demands? Jesus Christ on a Maypole, somebody ring the church bells and rouse the village.

...wait, those demands are shared by the entire "OWS" movement, yes?

Wait, what? For crying in the dark, you can't win for losing here. First everyone says there is no message. So you post links to interviews stating what various protestors want and those are ignored while people keep making the same claims. So you finally get someone's attention and you nonsensically ridiculed are for it (yes, I am speaking in the third person). Checkmite, what is your point?

• No, they are not shared by everyone.
• The movement is not monolithic.
• If anything they share a common belief that govt isn't listening to the people and that govt doesn't give a damn about the people.

So, can you dial back the snark and perhaps we can have a productive discussion?

 

[RandFan]

Yeah well, the difference is that MLK and Malcolm X weren't content to simply stand as one and agree that blacks needed equal rights and politely refrain from discussing the different routes they each believed would take them there for the sake of maintaining a large-looking "cohesive" body. MLK went his way, and Malcolm X went his way; they took their followers with them and started working towards a solution instead of merely screaming that there's a problem.

Again, what? There were marches. Protests. Disruptions. Remember the bus strike? Remember the sanitation strike (sound familiar)? Remember the dogs and hoses? Remember Kent State? What's with this historical revisionism?

And BTW, there were disagreements through out, not just MLK and Malcolm X. MLK's inner circle had disagreements. Malcolm X split from the Nation of Islam. The Democrats were torn apart. Remember the arrest of the Chicago 7 at the Democrat National Convention? The people protesting didn't all agree. Some called for armed conflict. Some were simply non-violent but didn't condemn those who were. Some we're pacifists and condemned ALL violence (listen to Revolution by the Beatles if you want a flavor for the disagreements and discord in the movement). People were killed, Weather Underground? There we're communists, socialists and blue collar union members. It wasn't anything near monolithic. The Black Panthers had differences with the Nation of Islam. Tom Hayden wasn't calling for the overthrow of the govt. Many at that time WERE. They were called communists, I know, I grew up during that time.

 

[MinnesotaBrant]

This are not the same people protesting the G-8 and various other so called NWO meetings? I remember seeing one get broken up by a phalanx of police officers. Some of them where in the skyway with me and exclaimed to me, can you see what they are doing to those people? (I will admit that they knocked down everyone on a busy street that didn't get away fast enough.) When I didn't say anything, she said well it was an illegal protest. I really see how it can be co-opted unless it gets really big and powerful. This is hard to do with police with shields and batons ready to knock you in the head.

 

[Checkmite]

Again, what? There were marches. Protests. Disruptions. Remember the bus strike? Remember the sanitation strike (sound familiar)? Remember the dogs and hoses? Remember Kent State? What's with this historical revisionism?

And BTW, there were disagreements through out, not just MLK and Malcolm X. MLK's inner circle had disagreements. Malcolm X split from the Nation of Islam. The Democrats were torn apart. Remember the arrest of the Chicago 7 at the Democrat National Convention? The people protesting didn't all agree. Some called for armed conflict. Some were simply non-violent but didn't condemn those who were. Some we're pacifists and condemned ALL violence (listen to Revolution by the Beatles if you want a flavor for the disagreements and discord in the movement). People were killed, Weather Underground? There we're communists, socialists and blue collar union members. It wasn't anything near monolithic. The Black Panthers had differences with the Nation of Islam. Tom Hayden wasn't calling for the overthrow of the govt. Many at that time WERE. They were called communists, I know, I grew up during that time.

Right. There were splits, and groups that took different actions and made different demands, and worked towards those demands.

When that starts happening with OWS, maybe they'll start getting somewhere.

 

[RandFan]

When that starts happening with OWS, maybe they'll start getting somewhere.

I'm fine to agree to disagree. You could very well be right. So long as lack of monolithic conformity isn't a basis to discredit OWS.

 

[Checkmite]

Wait, what? For crying in the dark, you can't win for losing here. First everyone says there is no message. So you post links to interviews stating what various protestors want and those are ignored while people keep making the same claims. So you finally get someone's attention and you nonsensically ridiculed are for it (yes, I am speaking in the third person). Checkmite, what is your point?

The point is there's still no message! When someone asks you what the message is and the best you can do is "well this guy standing on the corner wants legal weed and that guy across the street wants corporations outlawed and this guy next to me just wants higher taxes and more regulation", don't you understand that's not a message? It's static. It's the snow on the television when you flip to a channel with a dead station - a bunch of tiny unconnected radio impulses that are never enough on their own to convey any coherent information or contribute to a collective whole image or sound, and whose only connection which each other is that the antenna happens to detect them all on this channel.

So now here we are. Zuccotti Park is the "we don't like how banks and corporations have screwed the people" channel - and all that's on is this visual snow and static.

Get it now?

 

[Virus]

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"



Turn your volume down if you are irritated by the sound of idiots.

 

[Brainster]

The point is there's still no message! When someone asks you what the message is and the best you can do is "well this guy standing on the corner wants legal weed and that guy across the street wants corporations outlawed and this guy next to me just wants higher taxes and more regulation", don't you understand that's not a message? It's static. It's the snow on the television when you flip to a channel with a dead station - a bunch of tiny unconnected radio impulses that are never enough on their own to convey any coherent information or contribute to a collective whole image or sound, and whose only connection which each other is that the antenna happens to detect them all on this channel.

I get the feeling that this is what he likes about the protestors, because it allows him to feel that they are speaking for him. They are a blank slate, on which anything can be written or read. Look at these 41 charts, that's what they're upset about. What do they want? Well, essentially they want the charts to be turned upside down.

 

[Brainster]

"Come and see the violence inherent in the system!"



Turn your volume down if you are irritated by the sound of idiots.

My cousin pointed out that when the protestors start up that chant of "Shame! Shame!" the cops should respond with "Shave! Shave!"

 

[eeyore1954]

When you see a video like that you can understand how the police can lose their cool and react in a way maybe they shouldn't.

 

[applecorped]

When you see a video like that you can understand how hope for the police can to lose their cool and react in a way maybe they shouldn't.

much better

 

[RandFan]

The point is there's still no message!

Yeah, there IS a message. I provided links and videos. I enumerated them. Bullet pointed them.

Sticking your fingers in your ears and humming won't make it go away.

 

[RandFan]

The message includes:

It's been done. Turns out that the appropriate authorities are promised cushy jobs after they leave the public sector by the very people they are supposed to investigate, so they investigate, ask the the financial institutions to self regulate and then they destroy all records of the investigation. No, I'm NOT making that up.

S.E.C. Files Were Illegally Destroyed, Lawyer Says

Taibbi on SEC’s Records Destruction Reveals How Deeply Entrenched Official Corrpution Is

OWS would like to end the corruption and incestuous relationship between the SEC and investment and financial institutions.

 

[applecorped]

OWS would like to end the corruption and incestuous relationship between the SEC and investment and financial institutions.

Like? How do they propose to actually do it?

 

[RandFan]

The OWS message:

CHARTS: Here's What The Wall Street Protesters Are So Angry About

The "Occupy Wall Street" protests are gaining momentum, having spread from a small park in New York to marches to other cities across the country.

So far, the protests seem fueled by a collective sense that things in our economy are not fair or right. But the protesters have not done a good job of focusing their complaints—and thus have been skewered as malcontents who don't know what they stand for or want.

Click here to see the charts>

The status quo cannot go on. Do something to end this.