JFK Conspiracy Theories: It Never Ends

[kookbreaker]

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong.

Except where he did

Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found.

Not really important.

But Det. Boone was shown the rifle and refused to confirm it was the same weapon.

and? Where was this Mauser? Boone did not find the rifle.

And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle. Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

Craig told many tales. I am not impressed. Read this and his contradictory statements: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/craig.htm

 

[kookbreaker]

... and when an examination of the rifle that clearly had the imprint: Made Italy, Cal 6.5, he concluded it must have been a German Mauser, 7.65, eh?

The imprinting on a rifle is not a neon sign. It gets placed in many areas, and more importantly it can get worn.

It doesn't exactly stand out. This is a shot of a Carcano taken in bright sunlight:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/carcano/034.jpg

Again, not impressive. You seem to think people's first instinct was to properly identify the rifle. Their instinct was more likely to get it to police headquarters.

 

[Walter Ego]

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle.

Wrong!

The Prints by Gary Savage. Excerpted from JFK: First Day Evidence.

[Dallas Police Crime Lab Detective R. W. (Rusty) Livingston] has copies of five photographs taken by Lieutenant Day made directly from the original Dallas police negatives which show latent fingerprints found on the trigger housing of the Mannlicher-Carcano rifle from the sixth floor of the Depository. The fingerprints are visible to the naked eye even before enhancement. Each of the fingerprint photographs was taken with a light shining on the trigger housing from different directions in order to produce various contrasts of the fingerprints. This was an attempt by Lieutenant Day to bring out as much of the ridge detail as possible in order to do a (comparison for identification of whoever had previously handled the rifle (the shooter). Fingerprint ridges are the lines running around each finger from one side of the nail to the other. The raised ridges are unique to every person.

The rifle was completely covered with black fingerprint powder by Lieutenant Day in order to check for prints after he had returned to the Crime Lab around dusk on the evening of the assassination.

The fingerprint photographs which Rusty retained copies of should not be confused with the palm print that Lieutenant Day found underneath the barrel of the disassembled rifle. This evidence is in addition to that. Many studying the assassination have confused the issue of what prints were found on the rifle as well as where and who actually found them.

http://www.jfk-online.com/prints.html

This is known as a citation, btw, something you're still having problems providing us with. Notice the little linky at the end? That allows you to check the source of the quote and proves I didn't just extract it from my ass. When you c&p a quote (which you have been doing), it's just as easy to c&p the URL too. Try it sometimes.

 

[kookbreaker]

Nor was there any readable palm print or finger print on the rifle.

Umm, yeah. They got a palm print.

Nor was there any record of the person who picked up the rifle at the Post Office

Well it sure seemed to end up in Oswald's hands. He certainly sent the order for it and it went to the PO Box he rented in Hidell's name.

 

[I Ratant]

The imprinting on a rifle is not a neon sign. It gets placed in many areas, and more importantly it can get worn.

It doesn't exactly stand out. This is a shot of a Carcano taken in bright sunlight:

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa45/lionking_rocks/carcano/034.jpg

Again, not impressive. You seem to think people's first instinct was to properly identify the rifle. Their instinct was more likely to get it to police headquarters.

.
Two more.
One is one of Howard Donahue's (Mortal Error author) which he sent me years back, and the other is my M-C.
Each is different.
.

 

[Mudcat]

Weitzman never admitted he was wrong.

Debunked by Kookbreaker

Moreover the Warren Commission refused to show him the rifle and ask him if that was the weapon he found.

Think about this statement for a second. How do you ask someone if a specific object is the specific object they supposedly found without showing them the specific object?

And Det. Roger Craig, to his dying day insisted it was a Mauser 7.65 and said he read the words from right off the rifle.

I'm going to set aside the issue that Kookbear brought up about the imprinting and any possible human error and point out that riffles that so closely resemble each other can be used as spare parts to repair each other if in good enough condition.

Craig was soon fired from the DPd, had several attempts on his life, and eventually, allegedly, committed "suicide."

This is just baseless insinuation and speculation on your part.

 

[kookbreaker]

.
Two more.
One is one of Howard Donahue's (Mortal Error author) which he sent me years back, and the other is my M-C.
Each is different.
.

And again those are under some bright lights - not the dimly lit sixth floor of a warehouse.

Now interestingly Robert Prey make a big deal about these engravings saying Cal 6.5 and not the Mauser 7.62, which assumes:

1) The detectives in question had the various calibers of European rifles memorized.

2) Barring that -that they could somehow identify the tiny Italian crest vs. a German one (assuming they have them - from what I've seen, Mausers may have even less in the way of markings.)

 

[bynmdsue]

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

Oh man, I can't wait to see this.

 

[kookbreaker]

Debunked by Kookbreaker

Me? Nothing. Walter Ego posted that clip on the last page. Guess who ignored it.

 

[Tomtomkent]

We still are waiting to see what you've "got." (Properly sourced, please.)

Believe or not, there are people here, myself included, who could be convinced that there was a conspiracy to kill JFK i you could come up with some... you know like... evidence.

It's coming, oh ye of little faith.

Then why on earth not start the conversation with it? Why set the ultimate Logical Fallacy Quiz and jerk around when you could have said "hello, here is some evidence that says X about the JFK conspiracy?

Especially when you have already told people to "go home" before producing it.

And even more worrying after having been utterly blithe about spreading all kinds of crud that simple fact checks take a few seconds to dissprove. (The rifle found where? Nope. Who said what about which calibre? Etc.)


We dont work on faith. We work on evidence. Supply some.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Oh man, I can't wait to see this.

This it seems will be put to the test...

 

[Robert Prey]

I will treat this sneering response with more respect that it deserves.

Oswald not only used the A.J. Hidell (not "Hidel") alias to order the Mannlicher-Carcano and the handgun, he used it in New Orleans to make it look like there was more than one member of his unofficial Fair Play for Cuba Committee by having Marina sign a membership card in the name of Hidell as chapter president and as the alternate name on the New Orleans post office box he rented in June 1963.

Oswald did have an inflated sense of his own importance but he obviously didn't want to be arrested otherwise why did he haul ass from the crime scene and kill Officer Tibbit? Oswald not only denied shooting anyone when questioned by the DPD, he told consistently provable lies when the questions turned to his ownership of the assassination rifle.

(And, interestingly, when asked to give any residential addresses he may have had in Dallas, he gave every address but he significantly left out 214 W. Neely St. where the backyard photos were taken of him with the rifle and the handgun that killed Tibbit.)

Oswald's fleeing Dealey Plaza, killing Tibbit, lying about his false ID and ownership of the Mannlicher-Carcano and concealing the fact of his residence at 214 W. Neely from the police are in fact evidence of what in legal terms is called "consciousness of guilt." So Oswald's denial of the Hidell alias, far from proving his innocence, was another indication of his guilt.

Do you have have documented facts that Oswald was not the assassin? We are still waiting to hear them.

No. But I'm asking for your documented facts that he was. I only claim it was a conspiracy, which I will shortly get into.

 

[Robert Prey]

Then why on earth not start the conversation with it? Why set the ultimate Logical Fallacy Quiz and jerk around when you could have said "hello, here is some evidence that says X about the JFK conspiracy?.

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

 

[Scott Sommers]

I have very little interest in these theories about the Kennedy Assassination. But I have to say that Walter's earlier statements that KA conspiracy theorists are just as nuts as 9/1 conspiracy theorists are appearing more and more true.

Robert, get to it. I'd like to hear your side - because I haven't heard anything meaningful so far. This is the first time I've ever paid attention to a KA thread and - so far - it's just as nutty as 9/11, the Atomic Hoax, or even the Hollywood Conspiracy. Am I wrong?

 

[kookbreaker]

No. But I'm asking for your documented facts that he was. I only claim it was a conspiracy, which I will shortly get into.

 

[kookbreaker]

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

You were given more than enough evidence by Walter Ego on post 53 and it was quoted several times. Pretending its not there doesn't impress us.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Because I came across this discussion seeing a bunch of alleged critical thinkers pooh-poohing CT's, with nothing but name-calling, but zero evidence. So I simply ask, how do you know?

So the evidence of the rifle, the warren comission, and frankly the data-gasm of post 50 donlt count because....? Your original claim there was not a "single" piece of evidence is flawed. A concise version of the lone gunman case has been offered and you have refuted nothing. No counter claim you have offered is supported by evidence. No viable evidence has been discredited by your claims. And yet you now assert that only "name calling" has been offered.

Perhaps you wish to redact that, or prove otherwise?


Or else perhaps explain what exactly you think you are bringing to the discussion?

 

[Robert Prey]

Wrong!



This is known as a citation, btw, something you're still having problems providing us with. Notice the little linky at the end? That allows you to check the source of the quote and proves I didn't just extract it from my ass. When you c&p a quote (which you have been doing), it's just as easy to c&p the URL too. Try it sometimes.

You do understand the word "latent" don't you?
The FBI's Sebastian Latona examined the prints and found them to be worthless.
His WC Testiomny:
:
Mr. LATONA. I could see faintly ridge formations there. However, examination disclosed to me that the formations, the ridge formations and characteristics, were insufficient for purposes of either effecting identification or a determination that the print was not identical with the prints of people. Accordingly, my opinion simply was that the latent prints which were there were of no value.

As to the alleged palm print

It had no chain of evidence, and the Dallas police did not tell the FBI about the print until AFTER Oswald was dead.

"...journalists assigned to the Dallas police station were reporting that, according to their police sources, Oswald's prints had NOT been found on the rifle (Lifton 356 n).

There is evidence that suggests the palm print was obtained from Oswald's dead body at the morgue, or later at the funeral home (Lifton 354-356 n; cf. Meagher 120-127). So suspicious was the palm print that even the WC privately had doubts about the manner in which it was obtained (Garrison 113; Marrs 445; cf.

Moreover:

"..."Miller Funeral Home director Paul Groody told this author that the FBI fingerprinted Oswald's corpse. Groody said 'I had a heck of time getting the black fingerprint ink off of Oswald's hands.' In 1978, FBI agent Richard Harrison confirmed to researcher Gary Mack that he had personally driven another Bureau agent and the 'Oswald' rifle to the Miller Funeral Home. Harrison said at the time he understood that the other agent intended to place Oswald's palm print on the rifle 'for comparison purposes.' Oswald had been fingerprinted three times while alive and in Dallas police custody. There has been no explanation for this postmortem fingerprinting."-- from "Crossfire" by Jim Mars

 

[Robert Prey]

I have very little interest in these theories about the Kennedy Assassination. But I have to say that Walter's earlier statements that KA conspiracy theorists are just as nuts as 9/1 conspiracy theorists are appearing more and more true.

Robert, get to it. I'd like to hear your side - because I haven't heard anything meaningful so far. This is the first time I've ever paid attention to a KA thread and - so far - it's just as nutty as 9/11, the Atomic Hoax, or even the Hollywood Conspiracy. Am I wrong?

"Conspiracy Theorists are just nuts...', eh? So all you do is to confirm what I have said, that you guys just offer name calling, with no evidence, save for one person who brought up the rifle ID. So, what do you have? In terms of "evidence.' Nothing, I'm sure.

 

[Tomtomkent]

You were given more than enough evidence by Walter Ego on post 53 and it was quoted several times. Pretending its not there doesn't impress us.

Ah. Might have typed 50 instead of 53...

Anyhoo, assuming there is ANY evidence of a conspiracy, it doesn't alter the fact that all available material evidence pointing to LHO being the only gunman on the day. If Oswald was a CIA plant, connected to the mob via Ruby or anything else doesn't change that. Most of it has simpler explanations. They tend to be honest human error (a guy looking at a rifle at a glance and making bad estimates, or JFK and his driver being misidentified in black and white photos after head injuries) or just the kind of coincidences we expect to happen (X has heard of or knew Y ergo conspiracy, when six degrees of seperation morethan accounts for the interesting coincidence.)

Even if there were evidence of a conspiracy to plan the murder, it will be able to unthread the good, connected evidence that LHO was the shootist, making one wonder the point of rPs approach and attitude towards other participents in the discussion.