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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Knox repeated her false testimony in a spontaneous statement and in a hand written note.

As others have said about a million times. This is not correct. She wrote she was not totally sure and that the police shouldn't trust what she was saying.

At that point the police should go back and do another interrogation to see if she would recant her statement and make sure she really stood by what she said. But they didn't, because they didn't want her to recant. She had said what already knew to be true. This is self evident, Machiavelli. They wanted a confession, not her version of the truth. You support this notion yourself when you say the police suspected (knew) all along the break-in was staged. They knew and wanted confirmation. Why do you deny this against logic?

Here Forensic Psychologist Scott Bresler explains what happened in the Matt Livers case. A similar thing happened in this case. The job of the police is not getting the suspect to say things they know is true. This is dangerous.

http://netnebraska.org/media/media.php?bin=NET&vidgroup=LGLM0000477

http://netnebraska.org/extras/csiontrial/false.htm
 
Does anybody know anything more about the knife found outside the cottage?
With a tense moment when one of the lawyers of Raffaele Sollecito, the 'German lawyer, found in the slope not far from the house of a knife crime table and two blood-stained tissues.

I think I've heard that it was a butter knife, but does anyone know for sure?

Hi Malkmus,
You are correct, it was a butter knife, found by a member of Raff's team about a month after the murder. And get this, that day the cops finally decided to use a metal detector around he house. I remembered Frank Sfarzo making a big deal of this, so I just spent a few minutes finding his post from back then:

Dec. 18, 2007 Perugia Shock
The Scientifica inspection at Meredith's house is just over. I leave them chatting out of the house. After one month and a half since the crime occurred a knife was found in the underbrush around the house.
And who found it? The police? No, one from the smiling team.
Of course, they are the ones who want the weapon of the crime to be not Raffaele's knife.
And indeed, as soon as they entered the gate the lawyer went to find the knife and some blood stained hankies. How lucky...
By the way, it's just a round kitchen knife unable to make those cuts. But it's notable that they didn't search around the house previously.
They even didn't search the cliff, which is a natural spot to throw a weapon. I expected that cliff to be cleaned from bushes and searched by a squad of 100 climbers right after the crime. In my dreams. I know it's difficult, very difficult, but... I'd cost less than a single Dna test.
This morning they used a metal detector not in the ravine but through the bushes around the house. Yes, not on november 2nd, today.

Link:
http://web.archive.org/web/20101015...-max=2008-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=48
 
Early report upon Rudy being captured:

Nov. 21 2007
Shortly after Rudy is in a jail cell in Koblenz. Interpol agents who meet him murmur: "In Italy I had problems with a girl." For some it is already a confession

The squad re-read the file of Rudy. Only five days before the discovery of Meredith's body was caught in a nursery in Milan with a knife in the kitchen of the school and took his white laptop. "I was at the station when a South American offered me a bed for 50 euros - had told the police in Milan - I did come here." Had denounced him and let him go and then stop it again two days later with a group of drug dealers and some Africans' drug in his pocket. From the Milan Furniture are now know that long ago had noticed in the most fashionable nightclubs

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubb...meredith-preso-il-quarto-uomo-sono-stato.html

So Rudy was stopped two days after the Milan nursery incident for drug possession? Or am I misreading this?


Hi Malkmus,
That sure was an interesing find!
Pretty easy to see that Rudy, at that stage of his life, was not a guy who worked hard at a 9-to-5 job or went to school to further his education. Heck, I doubt he even was a church goin' dude. After being arrested in Milan and released, he still doesn't seem to have gotten a clue and is busted 2 DAYS later hanging out with a buncha dealers, and he had drugs on him. Figures he was hangin' with the homies, he's a dude without a job. No girlfriend either. Poor Rudy.

I Google translated the whole article you linked, and wondered of this that was written about the investigation at Rudy Guede's apartment:
On the bathroom floor, there are interesting tracks: the 'muddy footprints of a tennis shoe that has the sole equal to those of Nike confiscated from Raffaele Sollecito, a student Pugliese went to jail with his girlfriend American Amanda Knox and Patrick Lumumba November 6 , and three "formations hair" including a long, dark hair that may be of Meredith.
What?
Rudy left muddy sneaker footprints in his bathroom?
From what, burying the knife and/or hiding Meredith's keys?
Did they ever use a metal detector near the same area where Meredith's cell phones must have been thrown from? I doubt it, especially after reading the Perugia Shock post that I noted above.

A possible hair from Meredith?
Surely it was picked up with sterile tweezers, bagged + tagged, and tested, what were the results? I'd never even heard of this hair, then again I didn't read Massei.
Hmmm...
RW

.
 
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I've never quite bought the if she didn't kill she didn't slander argument.

First I don't think she slandered anybody because of the obvious uncertainty of the initial accusation and because of the almost immediate retraction of even her equivocal accusation. I also think to prove calunnia it would be necessary to show that she acted of her own free will without coercion on the part of the police and that clearly was not the case.

But for the sake of argument assume that she was interrogated in a reasonable way without physical contact, sleep deprivation and techniques used to impress false memories. And also assume further that she didn't have a lawyer present and for that single reason the interrogation was judged to be inadmissible in a court trial against her. Assume further that in this hypothetical interrogation she knowingly and falsely accused another individual.

For a civil case the interrogation might very well be admissible and she might lose a judgment. But as I understand it the calumnia charge was criminal. But even there the act of falsely accusing an individual might be a crime that can be committed during an interrogation even if the interrogation was illegal. (I doubt this theory would hold water in the US, but it seems like this is the argument in Italy). So I think it is logically consistent for her to have committed a crime by making a false accusation during the accusation even if she was not actually guilty of the murder charge.

The problem with all this, from my perspective, is that even if you accept the idea that she might be guilty of calunnia based on a statement made in an illegal interrogation, I don't see how a just trial is possible on that issue at the same time that she was on trial for murder. AK's defense to the calunnia charge is that she was coerced physically and with psychological techniques into making the equivocal accusation and without a separate trial on that issue it seems pretty clear that her attorneys are going to focus on the murder charge and let the chips fall where they may on the calunnia charge.

The other problem with this and the one that people are thinking of when they suggest she couldn't be guilty of calunnia if she wasn't guilty of murder is that if she isn't guilty of murder her motive for falsely accusing Lumumba isn't apparent. But just because her motive isn't apparent that doesn't mean that she didn't have one or that she didn't falsely accuse Lumumba. So on a strictly hypothetical basis I don't think it is logically inconsistent for her to be guilty of calunnia and innocent of murder.

And again just for clarification, the above was a hypothetical discussion. I think AK was innocent of calunnia for the reasons I stated at the beginning of this post.
 
Amanda and Raffaele are free now, no longer silenced by their prison cells. We heard from Amanda's mother that there was no cartwheel, now we have recently heard from Amanda that there was no cartwheel. Just another fantasy designed to destroy an innocent young woman.

Those who will forever believe that Amanda is guilty will simply accuse her of being a liar, but those of us who know that she is an honest caring young woman, know that she speaks the truth.

All because of a cartwheel. What a joke! What a sick pathetic joke!

One side is completely right and one side is completely wrong. There is no middle ground here. The Anti-Knox groups are noticeably angry and responding in their typical fashion. It is no surprise that they are angry, as they must now realize that they are on the side that is completely wrong. Of course the few that hang on will never admit that they are wrong. The rest will just disappear.
 
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Absolutely not. The judiciary wiretaps phone calls of all suspects. They can bring all these conversation in court as declaratory evidence.
But they cannot bring police interrogations. Interrogations are normally useless as evidence.


Your point that a video of the interrogation wouldn't be used as evidence at trial is probably correct, but it is also totally irrelevant. If there were a video of the interrogation, we would know whether coercion was involved, and if so how severe it was. That goes to whether the statements are admissible as evidence. Coerced statements have no probative value for any purpose (except to prove police misconduct in obtaining them).

A video of the interrogation would also be probative of a material fact regarding the calunnia charge, namely malicious intent. A coerced statement necessarily lacks the requisite intent for criminal liability.

So sure, even if there were a video that showed coercion, it wouldn't be played at trial. But that isn't the point.

Also, if video of an interrogation is useless for evidentiary purposes, why are police required to record all interrogations? Isn't it because use at trial is not the only purpose for which a video might be important? If a statement is undeniably the result of coercion, it's inadmissible under Italian law, right? And when there is a video, that pretty much settles the question of coercion, doesn't it?

If there was no coercion, then the police are incompetent for not recording a video to prove that. If they intentionally declined to record or destroyed the video, that could only be because they knew the video would not prove an absence of coercion. Incompetence or misconduct: take your pick.
 
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I've never quite bought the if she didn't kill she didn't slander argument.

As a matter of logical entailment, I agree. It isn't impossible. An analogy would be a charge of perjury or lying to investigators sticking against someone not convicted of (and sometimes not even charged with) the underlying crime. That happens all the time.

But in this case, innocence of the murder does seriously undercut the malicious intent element of the crime of calunnia, and it makes coercion look like a more reasonable explanation than malice.
 
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I've been lurking on a few sites for a few weeks trying to understand the murder and trial as objectively as possible. I think I have the beginning of a basic grasp of things. Recently the good folks at PMF and TJMK (yes, I believe there are a lot of good folks "over there") have been gushing about a new book by John Follain. I don't have a copy (the only book I've got is BLN's, though I've read a lot of the English Massei Report and LOTS of posts.)

I'd recommend reading "Murder in Italy" by Candace Dempsey as well, it's easily found in most bookstores. There's also "The Monster of Perugia by Dr. Mark Waterbury and "Injustice in Perugia" by Bruce Fisher which can be found at Amazon as well. Barbara Nadeau and John Follain, unfortunately for their analysis and reputations, gave too much credence to prosecution claims and didn't notice the pattern of mistakes, distortions and at times, provable outright lies. Others could see more clearly and thus their judgment was not so impaired, and being as they saw the acquittal coming long before those like Nadeau and Follain who're still somewhat confused, that's pretty suggestive of whose perceptions were more accurate at the outset.

Peter Quennell posted an article by John Follain a couple of weeks ago and it's been bugging me. JF says Meredith suffered "43 knife wounds and bruises" but someone at PMF said recently that particular (deliberating) misleading description was cleared up a long time ago. But there it is again for the October 9 Sunday Times readership.

Yes, that's correct, Follain either hasn't figured this out or he thinks it more salacious if he tries to pretend there was far more violence done than there actually was.

Overall the article tries to appear even-handed but he keeps slipping. I decided to mark up some of his article as if I were a hypothetical editor looking for something a little more "fair and balanced." [Okay, very hypothetical.]

You did a fine job! I'd have given him a break on where exactly Rudy's DNA was found regarding the purse as it seems like a meaningless detail to me, but there's one way he was obscenely misleading in my view: that Amanda tried to 'frame' Lumumba. Signing two confused statements in a foreign language she barely read at that point which come off like opium dreams that she then repudiates with a written statement the same day making it quite clear she's not sure because of what they did to her, and then the next day makes it perfectly clear she couldn't know, cannot constitute an attempt to 'frame' by any reasonable interpretation of the word. Implicate might even be too strong, if you think on it what's notable about the arrest of Patrick is the police response to those two statements, not so much what she signed. Keep in mind what they produced before Matteini two days later bore little resemblance to any of that nor was it based on any evidence as the Polizia Scientifica weren't even close to finishing the forensics. Mignini literally made it all up out of whole cloth. That's a huge clue as to what went wrong here, when the police make hasty arrests on evidence that turns out to be mistaken or coincidental and then the forensics show no trace of any of the ones arrested that suggests something.


This is what I have, using Peter Q's headline, skipping Peter's intro and commenting on some of the first half of the article:

Anyone care to comment? Did I leave out anything significant or get anything wrong? I frankly haven't gotten to the bottom of the computer hard drives/forensic analysis.

Others can offer a more detailed analysis, though I'd point out not all four hard drives were actually fried, it was only three and the most important one, Raffaele's sister's that he was using that night, just had all the data after the 9:26 opening of the Naruto file erased.

I'd also have to add that the 'two knife theory' is just that: a theory. It's also indicative of the mindset of the prosecution, when they find that the knife they pulled out of Raffaele's drawer which tested negative for blood and couldn't have made some of the wounds they just pretend there must have been two knives instead of eliminating the possibility of the knife being involved. Less than 10 pg of DNA with no biological material identifiable does not suggest it's the only residue left of making a death wound, it suggests secondary transfer, contamination or fraud. This was known long before the Conti-Vecchiotti confirmed it officially in an Italian Court, it's simply basic forensic science, and as you can see here Stefanoni didn't even attempt to abide by the restrictions of LCN/LT DNA as set forth by the promoters of this new use of DNA analysis.

That's basically because DNA is used to identify people from biological materials, like if you find some blood you can run a test and find out (almost) exactly who it is, rather than relying on far less identifying characteristics like blood type. The same goes for saliva, or anything else like semen etc. When they find just 'DNA' it quite likely might have come from the lab itself doing the testing which is why you need all those strictures in those links. Here's one that explains some of the dangers of basic polymerase chain reaction (PCR) DNA analysis, with low template or low copy number (LT/LCN--*really* small amounts) those dangers are manifestly increased, which as it stands is why both Britain and the US are quite skeptical of its value in court, these are not 'technicality' fears, with LCN/LT you're basically looking for contamination level DNA which would be otherwise ignored employing standard DNA analysis.

At any rate he also fails to note that every single forensic expert (prosecution too!) testified that one attacker was also compatible with the crime scene and the wounds. As noted by Massei himself:


Massei PMF 368 said:
The consultants and forensic scientists have asserted that from the point of view of forensic science, it cannot be ruled out that the author of the injuries could have been a single attacker, because the bruises and the wounds from a pointed and cutting weapon are not in themselves incompatible with the action of a single person. With regard to this, it is nevertheless observed that the contribution of each discipline is specifically in the domain of the specific competence of that discipline, and in fact the consultants and forensic experts concentrated their attention on the aspects specifically belonging to forensic science: time of death, cause of death, elements indicating sexual violence, the injuries present on the body of the victim, and the causes and descriptions of these.

The answer given above concerning the possibility of their being inflicted by the action of a single person or by more than one was given in relation to these specific duties and questions, which belong precisely to the domain of forensic science, and the meaning of this answer was thus that there are no scientific elements arising directly from forensic science which could rule out the injuries having been caused by the action of a single person.


The whole case boggles my mind. I'm not sure the truth can ever be known. Emotionally rigged reporting doesn't help. The only thing I find certain is that a lot of people are absolutely certain of their p.o.v. Hence, "Rashomon."

The truth is more or less known, many people had it figured out long before the verdict, it's not that difficult once you realize the prosecutor and police are corrupt and incompetent, and Mignini a wee bit touched. They came up with cock-a-mamie stories that don't bear scrutiny, and the constant here in your 'Rashomon' is science; it doesn't work any differently in Umbria than it does anywhere else. If the police have to rely on destroyed computer data to even get Raffaele and Amanda at the scene with a single digit percent chance you know it's damn unlikely they were involved. Even if they put in that Naruto file and ran like hell to stab Meredith for no discernible reason and left no trace of their presence, do you really think they were only caught because the police made a hasty arrest unsupported by real evidence?

Or is it more likely they made a mistake based on coincidences and errors and managed to convince themselves they were brilliant and refused to admit they were wrong when it turned out the fantastical theory that captured the headlines was unsupported by real evidence? The Rashomon was created on one side by an objective look at the facts and on the other by a police and prosecution desperate to find a way to pretend they were still right and went looking for anything they could twist to support the idea Amanda and Raffaele must still have been involved. Then you have their admirers online who've more or less done the same thing and just don't want to face the fact they might have made a horrible mistake.

That's why none of the sites promoting guilt can allow any dissenting opinion, while anyone who thinks them innocent can make the case anywhere. Plus, they kinda went beyond the bounds of propriety during the course of the debate and pissed a lot of people off! :)
 
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What I consider appalling is what the USA did on the judicial point of view against "terrorism"; if you want to talk about something shameful on the point of view of principles of justice system, what do you think about the trial of Omar Khadr? Example of a guy jailed, tortured and sentenced for a charge that doesn't exist, for violating a law that was not written yet, a deed allegedly committed on a territory on which the court has no juristiction, by a person not under the jurisdiction of that law, and with no evidence that he committed the fact.
Would you propose this as example of non-appalling or non-shameful or non third-world principles of justice?

The Omar Khadr story is one that raises big questions about the justice of US actions in Afghanistan and Guantanamo, and puts the plight of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito into perspective. Of course, this is not to say that the Perugia injustice is of no account, since it is symbolic of numerous ongoing injustices against innocent people at the hands of powerful individuals in all parts of the world.

What is frustrating is that someone like Machiavelli expressing concern about an injustice committed by the US, should at the same time misdirect so much of his time and intellectual energy denying, and making excuses for, the injustice committed against Amanda and Raffaele.
 
Anyone care to comment? Did I leave out anything significant or get anything wrong? I frankly haven't gotten to the bottom of the computer hard drives/forensic analysis.

The whole case boggles my mind. I'm not sure the truth can ever be known. Emotionally rigged reporting doesn't help. The only thing I find certain is that a lot of people are absolutely certain of their p.o.v. Hence, "Rashomon."

The guy she met on the train is not on her list of sex partners. Is this a recent article by Follain? I hope he did not put this in the book as well.
 
And BTW Mach, your statement about Italy hosting terrorists to get even with the USA was appalling, and you lost any credibility you may have had.

What I consider appalling is what the USA did on the judicial point of view against "terrorism"; if you want to talk about something shameful on the point of view of principles of justice system, what do you think about the trial of Omar Khadr? Example of a guy jailed, tortured and sentenced for a charge that doesn't exist, for violating a law that was not written yet, a deed allegedly committed on a territory on which the court has no juristiction, by a person not under the jurisdiction of that law, and with no evidence that he committed the fact.
Would you propose this as example of non-appalling or non-shameful or non third-world principles of justice?

What does this have to do with hosting terrorists to get even with the US for not complying with a future hypothetical extradition request on Amanda Knox?
 
Amanda and Raffaele are free now, no longer silenced by their prison cells. We heard from Amanda's mother that there was no cartwheel, now we have recently heard from Amanda that there was no cartwheel. Just another fantasy designed to destroy an innocent young woman.

That comes as no surprise to me at all. Do you have a published link/source denying the cartwheel?
 
That comes as no surprise to me at all. Do you have a published link/source denying the cartwheel?

Sometimes you read it here first, publicly at least. Bruce Fisher is a source, which suggests he may have sources himself...

Hopefully soon Amanda will reveal to all and linkable the entire mystery behind the Cartwheel that lead to 70k posts in this and related threads, at which time I imagine the inevitable calls to close down the discussion will commence! :p

At any rate, having determined already it was highly unlikely that she was doing a cartwheel when the police approached as Napoleoni & Ficarra (Zugarini too I believe) testified to, being as that would be a neat trick with her being on the phone with Filomena at the time, I will assume this means that no cartwheel was ever done. I thought it possible she might have done one at another time during her 40.5 hours in four days she spent at the Questura, about half the time waiting for the privilege of being interviewed or interrogated, and the police just took a little creative license. The ambiguous testimony where she answered yes to ~four questions asked in court in one sentence simultaneously now would seem to mean she was only answering 'yes' generally and not specifically to all four questions at once. So she was probably doing yoga or something is my guess, as Halides1 has maintained for over a year I do believe.

My brother finished second in the state one year in high school for the 'floor' gymnastic routine or whatever they called it. He used to do standing backflips (no hands!) in restaurant waiting areas, thus whether Amanda did a cartwheel was never much of a concern of mine being as my brother turned out all right. Maybe if I could do one of those Ozzie Smith specials without fear of breaking my neck I'd have done them too!
 
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Sometimes you read it here first, publicly at least. Bruce Fisher is a source, which suggests he may have sources himself...

Yes I realised that, which is why I said "published link/source". I probably should have added media. :)

Hopefully soon Amanda will reveal to all and linkable the entire mystery behind the Cartwheel that lead to 70k posts in this and related threads, at which time I imagine the inevitable calls to close down the discussion will commence! :p

I've always thought it possible she may have just been doing some stretching/calisthenics, which I frankly find perfectly *normal* to do in stressful/waiting situations. Normal for me anyway.
 
The hand written note is damning to Knox.
No. It is damning only to the cop criminals that tortured her.


Hitting twice on the back of the head. This is the abuse reported in the hand written note.
Nothing else.
No. She described stress and extreme exhaustion, cops yelling at her, threatening her, hits to the head for not remembering the facts "correctly". By any civilised standards this is torture and a crime.

That you see nothing wrong with it, even defend and side with the criminals, given your declared intellectual background, is quite disturbing.
 
moreover Sollecito had withdrawn her alibi

Did he? I mean, I've seen some newspaper article that purports to recount what the cops said he said. But how accurate is the article? And how truthful were the cops? Neither source has any credibility in this case.
 
And BTW Mach, your statement about Italy hosting terrorists to get even with the USA was appalling, and you lost any credibility you may have had.

I think it also exemplifies the mentality of some of the Italians underlying the persecution of Knox. Judge Hellmann also spoke about the anti-Americanism driving the people to disregard justice in favour of vengeance. The facts doesn't matter when the opportunity comes to get even, the goal justifies any means, even destroying a life of an innocent is worth it.

I'm thankful that it was not a prevailing attitude among the Italians this time, there are also just and honourable people.
 
Knox repeated her false testimony in a spontaneous statement
I'd say forced statement.

and in a hand written note.
I want to make very clear that these events seem more unreal to me that what I said before, that I stayed at Raffaele's house.

Who is the REAL murder? This is particularly important because I don't feel I can be used as condemning testimone in this instance.


Then she had a chance to give a true account of facts and a consistent explanation for why she lied. She failed in providing a version both of what she did during the murder night, and of what happened during her interrogation and statements.
No, she succeeded. The criminal cops and the criminal prosecutor OTOH failed to give a consistent account of the interrogation night and failed to give a sane version of what they think happened the night of the crime.

Face it, Mach, you will not win, you already lost and it's over. Amanda is free, walking in the sun smiling, enjoying her family, friends and nature around Seattle.

While you're wasting your days and nights arguing delusions and proving only how right Festinger was.
 
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