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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Machiavelli, care to comment on this article? It seems to say that Knox and Sollecito was acquitted in accordance with 530.1 on murder, sexual assault and robbery, but in accordance with 530.2 on the count of staging the crime scene.

Is that correctly understood? What do you think of the analysis by Mr Turrini? Could he be right?

He also talks about five degrees (formulas) within 530.

http://translate.google.com/transla...24&bih=630&tbs=qdr:d,lr:lang_1it&prmd=imvnsol
 
Why is it sooo hard for you to honestly answer even the easy questions?

Perugia-Shock 2008-01-16
"Police gave out two more pictures for our bloody album."
The Sun 2008-01-16
Italian police yesterday released grim photographs of the flat where she had her throat cut.
Pools of blood can be seen smeared across the floor near where 21-year-old Brit student Mez’s body was found.
And bloodstains cover a sink, toilet and walls in the bathroom of the flat in Perugia, Italy.
Mirror 2008-01-16
"Chilling photos of the blood-stained flat where British student Meredith Kercher was found murdered were released by Italian police yesterday."​
DailyMail
This is the grim, blood-soaked scene inside the Italian apartment where British student Meredith Kercher was sexually assaulted and brutally murdered.
In chilling new photographs released by Italian police today, the full scale of the horror that confronted police when they entered the apartment in Perugia becomes clear.​

You are so wrong on everything and apparently incapable of learning the facts. So sad.

Obviously I was not there when the police - allegedly - made a press conference and showed pictures about a "bloody" bathroom. But the most important thing that is worth notice, to me, is that no Italian newspaper reported about such bathroom completely dirty with blood, nor reported the picture. Not a single one.
Apparently, not a single Italian source (except maybe Frank) "understood" that the pink paint was blood. And no one reported it.
The question is: how do you think the press would influence some Italian preliminary judge (that will look at the case a year later) or how do you think would influence the italian public, if they do not publish the photo and do not talk about it?
 
Machiavelli, care to comment on this article? It seems to say that Knox and Sollecito was acquitted in accordance with 530.1 on murder, sexual assault and robbery, but in accordance with 530.2 on the count of staging the crime scene.

Is that correctly understood? What do you think of the analysis by Mr Turrini? Could he be right?

He also talks about five degrees (formulas) within 530.

http://translate.google.com/transla...24&bih=630&tbs=qdr:d,lr:lang_1it&prmd=imvnsol

Turrini doesn't say they have been acquitted by the 530.1. There are five different formulas for acquittal, but the only two of these pretaining the case are both specified by the 530.1. There is no formula specified by 530.2; the latter is a condition that should be specified itself, next to the formula.
I would be interested in reading the motivation, because only the motivations will make clear what is the rationale behind the decision of acquittal.
 
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Just ask yourself how the great Vogt was able to witness both the reading of the verdict and the crowd outside at the exact same time?

...

She witnessed the reading before a video, as I did. Thus, I too witnessed both the reading and the crowd.
 
Wow! That is a long post. Has anyone told you that this case is a done deal? its over, take a break, get some fresh air. You were wrong, it happens.

Meredith is dead. Things happened cannot be changed. But this does not prevent people from pursueing the truth.
 
"B & E" or "B, E & T" does not require a literal 'breaking' - entering without permission even into an unlocked premise is sufficient to make out the charge if the entry is unlawful in the circumstances, as Guede's certainly was...

In addition to the cottage where the murder took place, Guede's method of entry was also via a window for his break-ins at the Milan kindergarten, the lawyer's office, and Christian the bartender's home.

What I'm getting from the last couple of pages of Machiavelli's posts is a very strong impression of the "Baghdad Bob" character. That is, denial of that which is plain as day in front of one's face, and insistence upon that which is not only not at all demonstrated by the objective facts and evidence, but which flies in the face of the demonstrable facts and evidence...

This shouldn't be particularly surprising, though. There are claims made in this world which we'd have to rank as infinitely more preposterous than that of Knox here being guilty of murder that, nevertheless, manage to find at least a handful of adherents. In fact, if there's a single, solitary idea that 100% of the world's population can shake hands and agree upon, someone please tell me what it is.

As for this particular poster, she's already claimed she wouldn't change her mind about Knox being guilty of murder even if it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that Knox was nowhere near the crime scene at the time the murder occurred. To me this suggests a grotesque bias that renders any attempt at reasoning with her quite futile.
 
How do you know that the press got the documents from the investigation file and not directly from the police?

I don't know, but there is no proof. And anyway it doesn't change anything.
Your belief is that the prosecution leaks documents to the press in order to influence public opinion. And this is absurd.
This is not the same thing as saying that documents could have been released by the police.
The police is not the prosecution, it is a different entity; moreover addressing public opinion with false information during an investigation is nonsense. It has no use, brings no avantage.
And, this information, like the pink bathroom, was in the British tabloids, not in the Italian press. This leak did not even reach the Italian public opinion: Italians dont read British newspapers. How this happens to be "prejudicial" to the public opinion which is a different public opinion, or to the process? Try to think about this alleged prosecution maneuver, think about the nonsense of your theory.

Anyway, if you are suggesting that an "investigation file" is public information in Italy, then the police/prosecution are responsible if prejudicial information is placed in it--it's the same as publishing the information.

The investigation file is not public, is reserved until deposited at the office of the preliminary judge (or the preliminary investigation judge, depending on the evidence). But the secrecy (or confidentiality) of the acts rests on the respect of the law by individuals, it is not under the responsability of the procura.

You're wrong. The prejudice derives from the publication, not from the act of writing.

Sorry, no.
A publication of a document that has no prejudicial content, is not prejudicial.
In order to have a negative effect on public opinion, the material must have itself a prejudicial content already.

If Amanda wrote a beautiful diary, you could claim that the publication had a positive fallout on her image. If you complain about the publication, this is because Amanda may have written a disgusting diary. And this not necessarily because of her sex history. The publication of documents itself does not cause negative prejudice. It is what is found in the documents that can shed a negative light on the person.

My position is that everyone can be held responsible of what declares and does. A prison diary written by a person under investigation is not a private venue, just as the prison parlor is not a place for private conversations, and Sollecito perfectly knows this as he writes his diary.
And what is the main value, to me, is that the diary is authentic: it is a document truly written by that person who was a suspect, thus it is part of the truth, and I don't feel offended by its publication.
 
...
As for this particular poster, she's already claimed she wouldn't change her mind about Knox being guilty of murder even if it was proven beyond a shadow of doubt that Knox was nowhere near the crime scene at the time the murder occurred. To me this suggests a grotesque bias that renders any attempt at reasoning with her quite futile.

You are falsely reporting of what I said.
I never expressed such position.
I add that Knox (as anybody) *could* be guilty of a crime by the Italian law even without being phisically on the crime scene. This is a teorethical possibility.
 
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Wow! That is a long post. Has anyone told you that this case is a done deal? its over, take a break, get some fresh air. You were wrong, it happens.

Bruce, "the folks of which those on PMF are examples," need something to do while their board is shut down for the weekend.
 
Machiavelli, care to comment on this article? It seems to say that Knox and Sollecito was acquitted in accordance with 530.1 on murder, sexual assault and robbery, but in accordance with 530.2 on the count of staging the crime scene.

No he definitely is not saying 530.2. Both formulas ("for not having committed the act" and "because there was no such fact") are listed in the first paragraph of 530.
 
I suspect the 'HIV positive' was actually probably more of an attempt to get her to break down and confess, and the list of sexual partners was just a consolation prize. They were telling her (and the world) that they had her captured in a 'clear-cut' video the night of the murder, that they had a 'murder knife' with her DNA on the handle and Meredith's on the blade, that they had 'evidence' of bleach receipts and a 'clean-up' due to things like finding no fingerprints in her room.

I agree. It was in the same ball park as the torture of the interrogations.
 
I don't know, but there is no proof.

Except for the reporting of the British press. But you're right--they don't have a reputation for accurate reporting in this matter.

Your belief is that the prosecution leaks documents to the press in order to influence public opinion. And this is absurd.
This is not the same thing as saying that documents could have been released by the police.
The police is not the prosecution, it is a different entity;

My belief is that Perugia law enforcement did this. I don't distinguish between Mignini and the cops.

moreover addressing public opinion with false information during an investigation is nonsense. It has no use, brings no avantage.

Oh really? Then why do you have change of venue laws?

And, this information, like the pink bathroom, was in the British tabloids, not in the Italian press. This leak did not even reach the Italian public opinion: Italians dont read British newspapers. How this happens to be "prejudicial" to the public opinion which is a different public opinion, or to the process?

I don't know that what you say is true. You are often wrong.

The investigation file is not public, is reserved until deposited at the office of the preliminary judge (or the preliminary investigation judge, depending on the evidence). But the secrecy (or confidentiality) of the acts rests on the respect of the law by individuals, it is not under the responsability of the procura.

Oh, I see. It's an honor system.

Fail.

My position is that everyone can be held responsible of what declares and does. A prison diary written by a person under investigation is not a private venue, just as the prison parlor is not a place for private conversations, and Sollecito perfectly knows this as he writes his diary.
And what is the main value, to me, is that the diary is authentic: it is a document truly written by that person who was a suspect, thus it is part of the truth, and I don't feel offended by its publication.

You have no understanding of the concept of prejudice. There are many nasty things that can be said about anybody. Even the Pope. But that doesn't mean that the person committed murder or that these things should be used against the person--they aren't evidence of anything. Knox's diary is irrelevant to the death of Meredith Kercher, and the only reason it was published was to cast Knox in a bad light in the eyes of the jurors. That is prejudice.
 
differing standards

No, that isn't actually possible. No laboratory would release a preliminary positive result for HIV without confirming it by a more specific test. That's absolutely hard-line.

Rolfe.
Rolfe,

When I asked several U.S. physicians about this issue some time ago, one told me that the rules governing the release of information such as the preliminary test might be different in Italy from what they are in the U.S. (or England). Is that a possibility?
 
No he definitely is not saying 530.2. Both formulas ("for not having committed the act" and "because there was no such fact") are listed in the first paragraph of 530.

It has to be clear that one of these formulas is always read and used, they are used also when there is paragraph 530.2 used.
 
My belief is that Perugia law enforcement did this. I don't distinguish between Mignini and the cops.

In fact, you don't distinguish. This is your problem. This is why what you say makes no sense. If things are different and you consider tham the same, you come to erroneous conclusions.

Oh really? Then why do you have change of venue laws?

We don't. Not of this kind. Not in a single case in the judicial history of Italy, a chenge of venue has ever been allowd on grounds of prejudice of the local population. It would be unprecedented.

I don't know that what you say is true. You are often wrong.

But you can check, the Italian press is public.
You say I am often wrong, however I didn't see that often someone demonstrating I am wrong on this forum. What did you demonstrate in this regard?


Oh, I see. It's an honor system.

Fail.

It is obvious: one is not accountable of what is not under their control.

You have no understanding of the concept of prejudice. There are many nasty things that can be said about anybody. Even the Pope. But that doesn't mean that the person committed murder or that these things should be used against the person--they aren't evidence of anything. Knox's diary is irrelevant to the death of Meredith Kercher, and the only reason it was published was to cast Knox in a bad light in the eyes of the jurors. That is prejudice.

You are wrong. In fact, maybe my concept of prejudice might also be very diferent from yours. In my opinion, you have no argument on this. Amanda wrote her diary, you should address your complain to her and to no one else.
 
<snip>Sorry, no.
A publication of a document that has no prejudicial content, is not prejudicial.
In order to have a negative effect on public opinion, the material must have itself a prejudicial content already.

If Amanda wrote a beautiful diary, you could claim that the publication had a positive fallout on her image. If you complain about the publication, this is because Amanda may have written a disgusting diary. And this not necessarily because of her sex history. The publication of documents itself does not cause negative prejudice. It is what is found in the documents that can shed a negative light on the person.

My position is that everyone can be held responsible of what declares and does. A prison diary written by a person under investigation is not a private venue, just as the prison parlor is not a place for private conversations, and Sollecito perfectly knows this as he writes his diary.
And what is the main value, to me, is that the diary is authentic: it is a document truly written by that person who was a suspect, thus it is part of the truth, and I don't feel offended by its publication.

If the judge shared your attitude, Amanda Knox would have been found responsible for the damage caused by the publication of her diary, instead of the author of the illicit book that contained what Amanda wrote.

Report: Book on Knox published

Amanda "Foxy" Knox wins damages after suing author Fiorenza Sarzanini

Small Victory For Amanda Knox


Amanda Knox's lawyer, Carlo Dalla Vedova, told ABC News that in the proceedings against Sarzanini and Rizzoli, he had argued a violation of Knox's privacy as far as her sexual activity and medical history were concerned, both of which are protected by privacy laws in Italy.

Dalla Vedova also charged that Knox's rights were violated when a photo of her in police custody was published in a Rizzoli magazine, and because the magazine and Sarzanini's book quoted legal documents that were not public.
 
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It's interesting that the suit cited privacy laws about doctor-patient confidentiality. We assume it was not the doctor who gave the journalist the information about the HIV test. It sounds like journalists in Italy are bound by doctor-patient confidentiality laws, too.
 
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