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PETA President's Will

Regarding animal testing, I have said in other threads that I eat a vegan diet and avoid animal products. My brother is a diabetic and has been since the 70s. So for at least a part of his life, animal deaths saved his life. I can't lie and say I think his life and the pig that died would be equivalent to me. I use the same hypothetical people use on the anti-abortion people: if you went into a burning fertility clinic and you could only save a live baby or a box of embryos, which would you save? If the embryos represent dozens of "babies", why not save the box?

Well I pose the same question: if a child is in the burning building along with a dog, and you can only save one, which do you choose, all things being equal?

So the way I approach the situation, and the way most vegans I know do, is to simply minimize suffering where I can. So can I eschew all medicine derived from animals? Well, I don't know. I'll do the best I can. Can I eschew all animal products in my food? Piece of cake. Vegan cooking is delicious and good for you. Why would I not do this then, since it reduces suffering and I lose nothing?
 
In addition, this line of thought only works for utilitarians :p . But I really enjoy this problem.
Well, as I said, I'm happy to stipulate that Davis is wrong viv-a-vis the numbers. The problem is certainly beyond my expertise, so I am not going to pretend that I can identify the correct side. I'm sure you didn't miss it, but my point was that the very fact that we can have this debate tells us we all have blood on our hands in significant amounts. This was to address claims that animals and humans are morally equivalent, which was the basis of Davis' argument.

edit: I've read some, but not all of Lamey's article. I can't say I agree with him (what I've read). To me, it certainly matters that human decisions mean more or less animals die, whatever the remove (Lamay argues that we shouldn't count or care about mice killed by owls after the crops are removed, since we didn't 'pull the trigger' so to speak). That makes no sense to me. If I put a bunch of explosives in your front yard, I can't claim innocence when you die after tossing your cigarette into the grass. Nonetheless it is an interesting article, in that he talks about things like the number of humans that are injured and die in slaughterhouse accidents, etc. Again, I don't think I agree with his conclusions, but it is an interesting conversation.
 
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I don't come across many people who argue that non-rational humans can be used for experimentation without moral implication (and I thought I had a minority opinion on this forum ), but regarding the subject it seems there is plenty of moral authority to appeal to who argue that moral agency is not a prerequisite for moral consideration.

I generally fall back on Peter Singer's line of thought: if a being suffers, there's no reason not to take that suffering into consideration. If a person hold that suffering has ethical implications, then, with respect to suffering, a human infant and a fully rational human are moral equals. Differences in mental or physical ability doesn't necessarily imply that suffering is less important, but there are ways rational humans can be harmed which may not preclude harm to non-rational humans, such as a rational human being deprived of a right to vote.

Maybe you could start a thread on why non-rational humans have a claim to moral value.

We don’t take another beings suffering into consideration, we imagine our suffering in the position of another being. This characteristic evolved for the advantage of humans over other animals yet, as with many evolved characteristics, it is not very well focussed.

I don't think you can justify that view by an appeal to kinship. Your nephew and a mentally similar child in Iraq have the same mental and physical experiences, clearly you object to your nephew undergoing certain experiences involving extreme amounts of pain, and its the nature of those experiences you object to; its not very clear how those experiences differ in any fundamental way from an Iraqi child's, so what's the basis for making a moral distinction between them? In what way does your kinship with your nephew change the nature of those experiences, what relevant difference does it make at all?

It should be extremely obvious that there's no moral distinction between a person being harmed whether you share a relationship with them or not. You can probably infer that this carries across species boundaries, and regardless of whether you empathize a lot or not at all with non-members of your species, there's no moral distinction between profoundly harming your nephew or a mentally similar animal.

I’m not making a moral argument; I’m making an argument based on the reality of what humans are. We are animals that in general favour life forms that are more genetically similar to ourselves over those that are relatively less similar. My argument is that morality is a fantasy we have constructed to try to justify our preferences with regard to the feelings induced when we imagine ourselves being treated in the same way another life form is being treated, and that these feelings become more significant to us the easier it is for us to anthropomorphise a life form.
 
This has to qualify as one of the weirdest wills ever:
Ingrid Newkirk's Unique Will

I Don't know about US law, but some of her instructions for the disposal of her body would be ruled illegal in the UK.

OTOH a human barbecue will be the best way to check if this woman is as tasteless as she seems to be.


Oh hum.
 
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so let me ask this: if there was a human being who had the same level of brain function as a cauliflower, would you consider it acceptable to eat this human being?

You are conflating two different thigns and this is IMHO the best way to shoot down your own argument :
* eating a species different than our own
* eating one of our own specie which is so disabled as to present characteristic similar to other specie (aka . no brain).

These are clearly different moral action. The first one is clearly far lower in moral strength as cannibalism.

Also Dessi : the same argument can be made to you. It is quite clear that well being and survival of one own specie come first. Pushing the survival of other specie before one's own, but it for wealth or survival, might be construed as a moral argument, but certainly not as a rational one. Survival and well being of our own specie come first, rationally, and other specie second. Anything beyond that is irrational.

Now , where our well being and survival is not concerned, then I see it as useful to suppress or lower as much as possible any pain or bad stuff happening to other species.

But as of suppressing the use ? You think it is more moral for those animals to NEVER be born (as nobody would grow them if we have no use) rather than have a short but OK life, but be useful ? Sorry but i see as much much more "bad" moral to never have animal born which help in their resource they offer on multiple level.
 
Incorrect. See PETA's fact sheet on pets:


See also, PETA fact sheeting on doing what's best for our companion animals:


PETA prefers the term "companion animal" over "pet", favors the usage of "companionship" over "ownership", favors "adoption" over "buying", favors animal shelters over breeding mills.

In a word, No. PETA does not object to keeping animals in principle.


That is what they "say" on the official web site, but haven been caught time and time again saying they would like to see all pet gone, and no animal ever taken as pet.

ETA: also : see Cleon/Roger.
 
Regarding animal testing, I have said in other threads that I eat a vegan diet and avoid animal products. My brother is a diabetic and has been since the 70s. So for at least a part of his life, animal deaths saved his life. I can't lie and say I think his life and the pig that died would be equivalent to me. I use the same hypothetical people use on the anti-abortion people: if you went into a burning fertility clinic and you could only save a live baby or a box of embryos, which would you save? If the embryos represent dozens of "babies", why not save the box?

Well I pose the same question: if a child is in the burning building along with a dog, and you can only save one, which do you choose, all things being equal?

So the way I approach the situation, and the way most vegans I know do, is to simply minimize suffering where I can. So can I eschew all medicine derived from animals? Well, I don't know. I'll do the best I can. Can I eschew all animal products in my food? Piece of cake. Vegan cooking is delicious and good for you. Why would I not do this then, since it reduces suffering and I lose nothing?
Bacon.
 
So the way I approach the situation, and the way most vegans I know do, is to simply minimize suffering where I can. So can I eschew all medicine derived from animals? Well, I don't know. I'll do the best I can. Can I eschew all animal products in my food? Piece of cake. Vegan cooking is delicious and good for you. Why would I not do this then, since it reduces suffering and I lose nothing?
Why is minimizing suffering the main goal?

I'm serious (I know, it may sound like an absurd joke). This is a multivariate problem, why concentrate on one axis.

For example, almost none of our food animals would ever exist if we did not raise them to be eaten. To me, modest discomfort and a shortened life is an acceptable trade off for existence. Extreme pain throughout a life? No. But I don't think the latter describes the conditions of farm animals. More importantly, where it does, well, we can do something about it rather than deny the animals existence, like improve their conditions.

The calculus goes on and on. More cows? More methane released into the air. More cows that aren't grain fed? The more fields that are devoted to feed. More cows? More jobs, but more pathogens. Fewer cows. Not enough manure to support organic farming, which means more natural gas (NG is used to create nitrogen based fertilizer), which means faster depletion of the world stock, more humans killed during drilling, more environmental damage, etc.

Anyone that claims they can do that calculus I think are fooling themselves. But, on the narrow front of animal suffering, I still opt for existence as a farm animal vs nonexistence. Even that is impossible to really answer, as we don't know how the animal really experiences it's life. I reluctantly turn to Temple Grandin (reluctant because I think some of what she says is pretty woo), who claims that cattle can be, and are, given a pleasant existence. Not always - part of her life's work has been improving those conditions. But, she is a recognized expert in the field, and she is generally happy with how things are now, though of course improvements are possible.
 
Anyone that claims they can do that calculus I think are fooling themselves. But, on the narrow front of animal suffering, I still opt for existence as a farm animal vs nonexistence. Even that is impossible to really answer, as we don't know how the animal really experiences it's life. I reluctantly turn to Temple Grandin (reluctant because I think some of what she says is pretty woo), who claims that cattle can be, and are, given a pleasant existence. Not always - part of her life's work has been improving those conditions. But, she is a recognized expert in the field, and she is generally happy with how things are now, though of course improvements are possible.

The same could be said of any creature who was never born. Would a hypothetical person who was not born in a Nazi camp, because its mother was murdered first, have been better off existing in that camp and living 5 hellish years before being gassed? Other things matter to existence besides the binary equation of living or not. Sorry to Godwin, but obviously the question isn't existence vs nonexistence, because we can come up with many scenarios in which living is not preferable to death. But you're not even talking about death. You're talking about never having existed, which sounds bad to YOU, but not to the gogol plex life forms that weren't born throughout the universe. If you were never born you wouldn't be losing anything. In the case of live animals, hurting them for food, when it is completely unnecessary to do so, is wrong. If you had to do it to survive you'd have a better case. But you don't. So hurting those animals has much less justification.
 
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The same could be said of any creature who was never born. Would a hypothetical person who was not born in a Nazi camp, because its mother was murdered first, have been better off existing in that camp and living 5 hellish years before being gassed? Other things matter to existence besides the binary equation of living or not. Sorry to Godwin, but obviously the question isn't existence vs nonexistence, because we can come up with many scenarios in which living is not preferable to death. But you're not even talking about death. You're talking about never having existed, which sounds bad to YOU, but not to the gogol plex life forms that weren't born throughout the universe. If you were never born you wouldn't be losing anything. In the case of live animals, hurting them for food, when it is completely unnecessary to do so, is wrong. If you had to do it to survive you'd have a better case. But you don't. So hurting those animals has much less justification.

Godwin again :rolleyes:

No, obviously being born into a concentration camp is not a good thing. Which is what I said in my post about extreme pain. And, I said it was a multivariate problem - why are you again trying to reduce it to a binary choice to make my argument look flawed?

As for the rest, it doesn't follow. Sure, the fact that a human likes existing is not an argument that every woman should bear children at 9 month intervals for the entire time that she is fertile. We are not required to supply maximal existence, and I did not argue that we did. But, it is an argument that giving birth is a good thing, even if that child subsequently suffers some (again, some, not Godwin amounts). Certainly if I was offered the choice: Roger, you can either exist, and be eaten at 40, or never exist, I would chose to be a food animal. Sure, that can't be asked in the real world (who would be asked if I didn't exist yet?), but the principle remains. We can't ask cows, but they seem to be enjoying their life, and I don't see the problem with bringing them into existence.
 
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We can't ask cows, but they seem to be enjoying their life, and I don't see the problem with bringing them into existence.

They do? I don't know if you've ever looked up "factory farming beef" on Google, but there is a lot of information about how cows are treated. I don't know how you'd come to the conclusion that they are enjoying their lives.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/

Approximately half of the country's dairy cows suffer from mastitis, a bacterial infection of their udders. This is such a common and costly ailment that a dairy industry group, the National Mastitis Council, was formed specifically to combat the disease. Other diseases, such as Bovine Leukemia Virus, Bovine Immunodeficiency Virus, and Johne's disease (whose human counterpart is Crohn's disease) are also rampant on modern dairies, but they commonly go unnoticed because they are either difficult to detect or have a long incubation period. A cow eating a normal grass diet could not produce milk at the abnormal levels expected on modern dairies, and so today's dairy cows must be given high energy feeds. The unnaturally rich diet causes metabolic disorders including ketosis, which can be fatal, and laminitis, which causes lameness.

Another dairy industry disease caused by intensive milk production is "Milk Fever." This ailment is caused by calcium deficiency, and it occurs when milk secretion depletes calcium faster than it can be replenished in the blood.

In a healthy environment, cows would live in excess of twenty-five years, but on modern dairies, they are slaughtered and made into ground beef after just three or four years. The abuse wreaked upon the bodies of dairy cows is so intense that the dairy industry also is a huge source of "downed animals" — animals who are so sick or injured that they are unable to walk even stand. Investigators have documented downed animals routinely being beaten, dragged, or pushed with bulldozers in attempts to move them to slaughter.

The veal industry was created as a by-product of the dairy industry to take advantage of an abundant supply of unwanted male calves. Veal calves commonly live for eighteen to twenty weeks in wooden crates that are so small that they cannot turn around, stretch their legs, or even lie down comfortably. The calves are fed a liquid milk substitute, deficient in iron and fiber, which is designed to make the animals anemic, resulting in the light-colored flesh that is prized as veal. In addition to this high-priced veal, some calves are killed at just a few days old to be sold as low-grade 'bob' veal for products like frozen TV dinners.
Granted, biased source. But to say they are obviously enjoying themselves is a stretch.
 
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They do? I don't know if you've ever looked up "factory farming beef" on Google, but there is a lot of information about how cows are treated. I don't know how you'd come to the conclusion that they are enjoying their lives.

http://www.farmsanctuary.org/issues/factoryfarming/


Granted, biased source. But to say they are obviously enjoying themselves is a stretch.
I live in Colorado. I'm surrounded by cows. They seem happy to me. A world renowned expert in cattle husbandry, Temple Grandin, feels that many (not all) cows live a good existence. Also, I know farmers. We raised cows in our family, along with chickens, sheep, ducks, pigs, and a few random other things. I also know (okay, knew) farm vets, and we have some on this forum. All available evidence, including personal experience, says that cows can, and do have a good existence, bad farms notwithstanding.

And, as I said, I do not argue that all animals in farming have a good existence. What I said is that some are, and that we have the capacity to change those that do not.

As an aside, appealing to Godwin, suggesting your discussion partner is uninformed, etc., it generally not a successful debate tactic. Also, pointing out the worst of something is not an argument that all of that something should not be done. We both are probably against child labor. That does not mean I think a child should not have a paper route. Likewise, it is certainly possible to eat meat in a way that increases suffering in the world. And, it is possible to have well tended animals and eat meat in a humane manner.
 
Aepervius said:
Also Dessi : the same argument can be made to you. It is quite clear that well being and survival of one own specie come first. Pushing the survival of other specie before one's own, but it for wealth or survival, might be construed as a moral argument, but certainly not as a rational one. Survival and well being of our own specie come first, rationally, and other specie second. Anything beyond that is irrational.
Let's try some variations on the same argument:

Aepervius said:
Also Dessi : the same argument can be made to you. It is quite clear that well being and survival of one own specie race come first. Pushing the survival of other specie race before one's own, but it for wealth or survival, might be construed as a moral argument, but certainly not as a rational one. Survival and well being of our own specie race come first, rationally, and other specie races second. Anything beyond that is irrational.

Aepervius said:
Also Dessi : the same argument can be made to you. It is quite clear that well being and survival of one own specie race nationality come first. Pushing the survival of other specie race nationality before one's own, but it for wealth or survival, might be construed as a moral argument, but certainly not as a rational one. Survival and well being of our own specie race nationality come first, rationally, and other specie race nationality second. Anything beyond that is irrational.

Aepervius said:
Also Dessi : the same argument can be made to you. It is quite clear that well being and survival of one own specie race nationality gender come first. Pushing the survival of other specie race nationality gender before one's own, but it for wealth or survival, might be construed as a moral argument, but certainly not as a rational one. Survival and well being of our own specie race nationality gender come first, rationally, and other specie race nationality gender second. Anything beyond that is irrational.

You may reject these 3 variants on the basis that race, nationality, and gender are not morally relevant characteristics, they are not a valid basis for drawing moral distinctions between individuals.

If you understand why you reject those versions, you will understand why I reject yours. Species membership is NOT, in fact, a moral characteristic, not a valid basis for making moral distinctions between others. The arguments against race being a morally relevant characteristic are identical to the arguments against species being a moral chracteristic, a point I made rather explicitly in a recent thread on whether race is a social construct:
Dessi said:
I take it that the statement "race is a social construct" is intended to undermine "scientific racism". In other words, if race is demonstrably a social construct, then there is no justification for the racists essentialist view that that the races are fundamentally different from each other.

I can see why people would make the statement, I just don't think its the best argument against racism. For what its worth, in the animal rights community, there's a popular essay titled Species is a Social Construction which makes the same argument, only generalized to species as well. I don't agree with the title of the essay, but I agree substantially with the arguments made in it (please excuse the lengthy excerpt, it's necessary for context):

[T]he philosopher Carl Cohen writes:

We incorporate the different moral standing of different species into our overall moral views; we think it reasonable to put earthworms on fishhooks but not cats; we think it reasonable to eat the flesh of cows but not the flesh of humans. The realization of the sharply different moral standing of different species we internalize… In the conduct of our day to day lives, we are constantly making decisions and acting on these moral differences among species. When we think clearly and judge fairly, we are all speciesists, of course. (Cohen, 62)​

I would first note that Cohen is using the term "speciesist" incorrectly, since he is talking not about the importance of "species" but about the importance of qualities that are correlated with our perceptions of species. His argument is therefore irrelevant because it ignores Singer’s point that individuals of different species (and individuals of the same species) should be treated differently insofar as they have morally relevant differences- just as men have no right to an affordable mammogram and wealthy white men have no right to the benefits of affirmative action. But what I really want to draw attention to is the question, what does Cohen mean by "species"? One might think that it would be giving Cohen the benefit of the doubt to just name one, preferably one that is accepted by many experts. Let's suppose, for instance, he is talking about Mayr’s biological species concept, which defines a species as a group of individuals capable of interbreeding and producing fertile offspring. But surely Cohen does not believe that when we "are constantly making decisions and acting on these moral differences among species,” we are making our decisions based upon matters of who is capable of breeding with whom. For, not only do we not need to know any information about the mating capabilities of these animals to make moral distinctions between them; most of us wouldn’t even know what to do with this kind of information if we had it!

So perhaps Cohen means a "commonsense" concept of species. That is, what is morally relevant are the distinctions that we are all capable of making simply by looking, with no scientific or philosophical training. What is morally relevant, in other words, is appearance. Yet I doubt that when Cohen wrote this passage he had appearance in mind as a morally relevant characteristic. For Cohen, unlike Darwin, the difference between humans and other animals is not merely one of degree, but one of kind. It is difficult to imagine how Cohen might hold this essential difference of kind to be based upon appearance. More likely, he would probably claim that we make distinctions between species based upon appearance, but it is not the appearance that is morally relevant but something else that is inevitably correlated with appearance. For instance, we distinguish between worms and cats based upon how they look, but the morally important distinction is ‘something else’ that is correlated by appearance.

But unless someone can tell us what this ‘something else’ is, it is only prudent to assume that it is a "vivid illusion,” as biologists Frank Keil and Daniel Richardson argue in "Species, Stuff, and Patterns of Causation" (Keil and Richardson in Species, 273). And remember, this ‘something else’ cannot be intelligence, self-awareness, language, or capacity for suffering, because then those properties would be the morally relevant characteristics- but no one argues that they are equivalent to "species.” This ‘something else’ must simultaneously satisfy at least two conditions, which I believe is impossible. First, it must correspond with what we really mean when we talk about species, and second, it must at least be plausible that it is really the basis of our moral distinctions between supposed species. Mayr’s biological species concept and species concepts based on genes or DNA, for instance, do not satisfy the second condition. And properties like rationality and language do not satisfy the first condition.

In other words, my main reason for saying that species is socially constructed is that we often unconsciously argue as if species has an essence; as if there is something about species in the background that can not be described, but which can simultaneously satisfy both the first and second condition. Given the basis of any species concept, few would argue that that basis is morally relevant in any significant way. Given the basis of Mayr’s biological species concept, few would argue that whom we have the ability to mate with is a relevant characteristic for determining how much moral consideration we should be granted (Lewis Petrinovich may be an exception, though his work is not altogether clear on the matter). Given the major basis of commonsense notions of species, few would argue that how we look should determine how much moral consideration we should be granted. Why, then, do some philosophers hold that our species can determine how much moral consideration we should be granted? I believe it is because they do not equate species with any biological or commonsense way of determining species. Rather, they are probably committing Washoe’s fallacy, thinking of species membership as some essential characteristic of an individual that, in reality, does not exist.

When people say race -- or species -- is a social construction, what they really mean is that race is not a morally relevant characteristic, knowing a person's race does not communicate any information about whether that person deserves food, shelter, or to be free from harm. Whatever properties determine a person's moral worth, like their capacity to feel pain and pleasure, rationality, morally reciprocating, are, by definition, the morally relevant characteristics we care about, and none of those characteristics are equivalent to race at all.

If you want your argument to be more credible than the arguments held by racists, nationalists, and sexists, you need to explain why species membership is a meaningful morally relevant characteristic, explain why its a valid basis for drawing moral distinctions between entire classes of organisms regardless of the mental capacities, and explain how your argument does not logically extend to justify any possible irrational prejudice on the planet.

But as of suppressing the use ? You think it is more moral for those animals to NEVER be born (as nobody would grow them if we have no use) rather than have a short but OK life, but be useful ? Sorry but i see as much much more "bad" moral to never have animal born which help in their resource they offer on multiple level.
To answer the question in bold, Yes. See here:
Dessi said:
Not breeding the animals would imply those particular [genetic] strains come to an end, or go extinct, that much is true.

Bizarrely, people use that fact as a criticism of veganism. "Extinct" is an emotionally charged word, however I don't think the objections to hunting animals for extinction carry over to animal agriculture. How exactly do you harm something by not breeding it? Who is harmed, and in what tangible way? I'd say you do not harm anything by not breeding it, because nothing exists to harm in the first place. So not breeding food animals is wholly consistent with animal rights.
 
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