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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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How coincidental to stage a break-in such a manner

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Let's look at the tangible evidence, shall we.
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I have answered to a poster who politely asked what I base my conclusion on.
Now, you can understand your rants will not change what I see about each topic. I have already assessed each one of them.
I do not share your view on the evidence. I simply see each piece of evidence that I listed as valid and well established.
 
I realise this is more than a week old, but still, it's worth a look. Finestkind delusional.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104925
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104927
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104975

Even if you swallow the vanishingly improbable suggestion that the Supreme Court will overturn the Hellmann verdict, he's assumed that this will lead directly to confirmed convictions and so has omitted an entire new trial stage, as well as its confirmation by the Supreme Court.

This must be some Koolaid. I do love the smell of meltdown in the morning.

Rolfe.
 
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Whose footprint is this?

[qimg]http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1248/amandaluminolnomatch.jpg[/qimg]

The second toe is neither a match for Amand or Raf.

Prosecution expert Rinaldi "matched" that footprint to Amanda. He's the same guy who bungled the bathmat print so I'm skeptical of his measurements concerning this one. Machiavelli called Bruce Fisher a "liar" partly because he thought this print belonged to an unknown female. I agree with Bruce. It belongs to someone other than Amanda. Perhaps Meredith whose finger prints were also found in Amanda's room.
 
Mach,

If Raf could have been over to the cottage several times before the murder and obviously, as depicted by Mignini, for hours on the murder night, and yet only left DNA on the cigarette and according to Stefanoni on the bra clasp, then clearly someone that came in with Rudy could have been part of the killing and left no DNA or prints or anything.

You agree with that, correct?

It seems so much more likely that Rudy was working with Kokomani and maybe a third thief than the kids hooking up with Rudy in minutes after Popovich had told them she didn't need help that night. Not withstanding Nara the murder by every other piece of evidence happened well before 11 or 11:30. The phone activity, state of dress, washing machine left full, no activity on her computer, food in stomach and the quick bodily cleaning of hands and pants points to death no later than 10
.

I disagree. It is not only Nara, it is also Antonella Monacchia. That makes two witnesses who locate the scream well after 10.
There are not meny pieces of evidence that point to a death earlier than 10. The phone records do not. We have phone activity at 22:00, but also around 23:00. While the first ping in the area of Lana's garden is by 24:00.
So there are two clues from the phone records pointing to a later death: phone activity is too late for a murder who would need to stay in tha house for an hour. Moreover the 23:00 mms was deleted; but the only person who may be interested in deleting mms after arrival is the owner of the phone, why should a murderer look at an incoming mms and delete it? Second clue is the 24:00 ping, which is due to the phone entering the roaming mode and looking for a new cell, this is the moment when it was thrown into a ravine that were not covered by the signal of previous cells, lost contact and connected to the new cell.

The state of dress and washing machine are not clues for an early tod. There is not even a certainity it was Meredith who activated the washing machine.

Only the stomach content is an indication for limit to time of death. But this is far than reliable as it can be subject to huge variants, such as fear or stress or cold or manner of food consumption, and others.
Moreover, Raf and Amanda have no real alibi later than 20:40. Computer activity consists in sporadic touching once every several tens of minutes, by an unknown user. We have no information to locate both defendants away from the murder scene for any period.


If Koko, Rudy and mister 7 had gone to rob the cottage on Rudy's info, they could have brought a folding ladder with them or two could worked together to get in. Koko's car was parked in the drive which would have partially shielded view of the window. Koko on lookout could have told them when the coast was clear to climb the window. I know no marks of a ladder was discovered by the PLE but that seems a possible miss by them, since they knew it was a staged break in.

But the fact is, the break in is staged. Too many objective findings show that. It is not true that the break in resembles a true break in, nor by Rudy nor by others.
It could be that two people diferent than AK and RS took place to the rape and murder, but if theu did they were not burglars and they did not enter through that window.
And sorry, but I don't consider as likely a missing of ladder marks.

And establishing an alibi story would have pretty easy. We stayed home ate after Popovich left and smoked pot, drank some wine and made love until we fell asleep.
They didn't need to lie about computer use or phone calls. If a phone call came in while they were out killing, they would just say must of missed it. They could even have said that after dinner they took a walk along the path they actually used to go to the plaza in case anybody saw them.

Yes but they also had problems about revealing what they did in the previous hours. Sollecito gave two different versions about their late afternoon:p. And he was unable to explain what they did in the evening, what they ate, if they made sex, at what time they went to bed and got up. Knox at first was unable to establish if they ate at Raffaele's or at her cottage, then she postponed dinner until after nine or ten, while we know it was over by 8:40. Maybe you say it was easy to agree a workable story, but the fact is they failed to do so. They were unable to produce a story in agreement. They had a crappy alibi because they had no alibi: a true alibi is always better than an invented "coordinated" alibi, and it is not always obvious and easy for two murderers to quickly agree and remember even on a simple timeline. Especially considering that probably they don't even agree on the murder: it happened, and maybe they had to deal with it quite caotically.
 
Prosecution expert Rinaldi "matched" that footprint to Amanda. He's the same guy who bungled the bathmat print so I'm skeptical of his measurements concerning this one. Machiavelli called Bruce Fisher a "liar" partly because he thought this print belonged to an unknown female. I agree with Bruce. It belongs to someone other than Amanda. Perhaps Meredith whose finger prints were also found in Amanda's room.

No, Bruce mentioned another footprint, whic was not in luminol. He (and Kevin) asserted it was one of the luminol footprints as they quoted the Massei report, but in fact they quoted a footprint that was not in luminol. They were talking about a non-luminescent latent footprint not related to the murder, found in Amanda's room, which was attributed to an unknown subject of unknown gender (which means not Amanda nor Raffaele nor Rudy), not to an "unknown female".
 
Frank quoting Hellmann:



Interesting the way this is stated on the staging of the crime scene charge. It appears he is saying that no such crime took place.

Yes, in fact this is the formula.
A point for which we don't know if he used the 530.1 or 530.2.
This formula can imply that it was not proven that the fact actually happened. Depends on the paragraph mentioned.
 
This one sounds interesting. The phone was in the garden at the time, wasn't it? What is special about that?

The reason of the ping. This connection, as opposed to the other ones, was not due to telephone use. It was due to a loss of contact to the previous cells (the last cell employed was 0064).
The loss of contact is due to the fact that the area not covered by the scope of the previous cells because of terrain relief and lower altitude.
This is the only connection of this kind, and the first time the phone pings from the area of Lana's garden; it should have done that earlier, if was in the area since an earlier time: hence, I believe it fell by the garden area at that time.
 
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I realise this is more than a week old, but still, it's worth a look. Finestkind delusional.

http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104925
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104927
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewto...f702b3f0796b8a05af581ee5b0&start=5250#p104975

Even if you swallow the vanishingly improbable suggestion that the Supreme Court will overturn the Hellmann verdict, he's assumed that this will lead directly to confirmed convictions and so has omitted an entire new trial stage, as well as its confirmation by the Supreme Court.

This must be some Koolaid. I do love the smell of meltdown in the morning.

Rolfe.

Hoo boy! That is really off the deep end!
 
Here's more.

Vivianna said:
Subjecting people who were found innocent to public opprobrium is a touchy subject, because there are people out there who have been wrongfully convicted and then exonerated at a later date. It's a lot easier to respect the verdict in some of those cases because the real perpetrator gets identified and the public understands why the first person was released. In cases like this one, where no alternative has been offered, it is difficult to be civil about it.


Viv, repeat after me, very slowly.

R-U-D-Y G-U-E-D-E.

Rolfe.
 
No, Bruce mentioned another footprint, whic was not in luminol. He (and Kevin) asserted it was one of the luminol footprints as they quoted the Massei report, but in fact they quoted a footprint that was not in luminol. They were talking about a non-luminescent latent footprint not related to the murder, found in Amanda's room, which was attributed to an unknown subject of unknown gender (which means not Amanda nor Raffaele nor Rudy), not to an "unknown female".

So we have another unknown footprint in Amanda's room, just like the one lit up by the luminol. Or do you have an explanation for why that second toe is significantly smaller in length than Amanda's second toe as seen on her ink print?
 
Thank you for the response. A few comments, why was he not charged with calunnia if his testimony was not believed?

He was charged with false declaration.
He could not be charged with calunnia since for calunnia you need to assume the person accused is an innocent, and the person who accuses reasonably thinks so.

Okay. I will never believe a man high on heroin that is found by a newspaper reporter a year after the crime who had told the police he hadn't seen anything and had date information incorrect.

Well I'm not that prejudicial.


Obviously we disagree. You are saying that in Italy the suspect must produce a better explanation, e.g. they must prove their innocence.

No, but there is an important rule in play her about the processo indiziario and the definition of reasonable doubt.
The concept is, the defense may not consist in a series of alternative explanations that are all remote, weak or unlikely. One improbable explanation is acceptable, but not a series of explanations that all employ weak, improbable and/or remote alternatives. The defense cannot be "made" this way.

Sorry but not clear on the L9. My readings have not produce any evidence of a big cleanup.

A "small" cleanup is enough.
There incontrovertible evidence of cleanup in the small bathroom, since the bathmat is entirely spattered with blood, while the floor is totally clean. There is evidence of clean up of the external of the doo because of "L9" trace, a residual smearing along the door frame left by a cleaning.
There is also the fact thet the luminol footprint were latent. They were probably diluted blood iyet at the origin, but they became completely latent and, together with them, also one shoeprint disappeared (was enhanced again with luminol).

Someone washed blood off their hands and probably their pants. There was no evidence of bleach on the floors or marks of the cleaning. There is no evidence of cleaning utensils or material. No blood or DNA in the mop or bucket.

No but, actually, not all the mops were found and tested. If Amanda was at Quintavalle the next morning, this was not to buy bleach, but to buy (a) new mop "head/s".

The only evidence of a real cleaning is that for the Massei theory to work he needed cleaning so he said there must have been cleaning.

Massei remarks that the stained bathmat on the clean floor is itself an obvious evidence of cleanup.

Footprints at best are compatible with both of them. Why if Raf put his foot on the mat didn't they dispose of it as they did with clothes, cleaning supplies etc.?

By my studies, they are absolutely not compatible with both. But I don't know if its' the case to show openly material about this; for sure not on this forum.

If you believe in the blood in the bathroom evidence, explain why they didn't wipe it off with a tissue and flush it? You must explain why they left the blood when they could have wiped it 10 seconds and you know they saw it because they told Filomena and the Postal Police.

The fact is Amanda's blood was in the bathroom, on the faucet and on a plastic box. This, itself, cannot be dated. But contextually, it can be: Amanda dated it by saying it was not there the day before, and she did not provide possible explanations for why it could have fallen there in the morning. It was in a very visible place, where it would have been cleaned by Meredith if was there before, and we don't have memories by Amanda about blood losses (blood gets on finger, body etc) even the day before. We have all elements to define "unlikely" that this blood stain is unrelated to the context, since there is no element that would make it likely outside the context. It is not normal that one doesn't know, did not realize, if he/she had a blood loss the day before, it is not likely to have no clue about it; and it is not normal that one does not realize if is bleeding at the moment as amande recalls t have done in her e-mail: a normal person checks immediately on his/her body if thinks a blood stain comes from his/her ear face or or body; that would be the first thing, not calculating the size of the stain to conclude it's not yours because too big.
 
If Hellmann writes in his motivations a perfectly good explanation on the break in, would you be able to accept it?

- clean floor in the bathroom
Yet they left the bathmat?
No sense at all.

- multiple attackers from autopsy report
The report didn't conclude if Meredith was attacked and killed by more than one person or at least it didn't rule out a possibility that only one person did it, remember dr Lalli? It's yet another confusing story.

- bathmat print is egregiously compatible with Sollecito and not compatible with Guede
Says who? Prosecution's experts. And what did the defense's experts say? Something completely opposite.

- bra clasp DNA and knife DNA are not discredited by Vechiotti/Conti report, this became obvious to me as I read the report
Then we must've read different reports, even The Machine claimed it was favourable for Knox and Sollecito, the report was damning for the prosecution and it was a key to the acquittals

- no logical alternative to explain Rudy Guede's traces and the isolated bathmat print through a single perpetrator scenario
Give me one logical explanation on why there's no sign of Knox and Sollecito in the murder room ,then we can move on to whatever you like.

-Nara isn't a direct witness, never was...she didn't see anything.
The rest, so called evidence, that you listed, isn't evidence.

There's nothing that can't be refuted.

I my opinion the evidence cannot be refuted. Obviously, our different conclusions are due to a different analysis of the pieces of evidence.
Unfortunately, I am very reluctant in entering details of many areas of the evidence in a forum discussion. I don't think its' good to do these things openly during an ongoing trial. Anyway I don't think this forum is the right venue.
 
Question for you about the break-in. In staging all the pieces, why did Amanda and Raffaele decide to place the rock inside the bag under the window? What was the thought process in doing that?

I think the rock just fell and bowled there.
An interesting detail: the paper bag was broken by the weight of the stone; on falling, the torne paper ended on top of one of the clothes that allegedly the burglar should have tossed on the floor. Just a little detail.
 
I have answered to a poster who politely asked what I base my conclusion on.
Now, you can understand your rants will not change what I see about each topic. I have already assessed each one of them.
I do not share your view on the evidence. I simply see each piece of evidence that I listed as valid and well established.

Ok, could you just give us the reasons why you think the break-in was staged? What is this objective evidence you refer to?

But don't bother mentioning the unreliable witness claims like "glass being found on top the clothes" or Mignini's silly insistence that Rudy could not have climbed the wall. That means nothing to me. You mentioned physical evidence, and I assume by that you meant forensic evidence. So what forensic evidence are you talking about that has you convinced of a staged break-in?

For me, the break-in is the most important issue. Whether it's real or not makes or breaks the case for innocence.
 
Fine and others:

I have been in contact with journalist Antonia Hoyle regarding this article where Patrick Lumumba claims to have been beaten by the Perugian police. She confirms that this indeed was what he told her in her 2007 interview with him:



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ls-framed-Merediths-murder.html#ixzz1aY9A2pck

Today this is his version:

. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ress-says-Patrick-Lumumba-accused-murder.html
__________________

Paninaro,

Well, did Antonia Hoyle say what sort of records she has to prove that Patrick said this? Written notes or audio tapes?

It occurs to me that if Patrick was physically abused by the same---or some of the same---cops that molested Amanda on the morning of November 6, 2007, and if that abuse can be substantiated, Amanda will have strong grounds for her appeal of her calunnia conviction. In the USA an appeal court can throw out a conviction when fresh, pertinent, and credible evidence emerges.


///
 
Whose footprint is this?

[qimg]http://img840.imageshack.us/img840/1248/amandaluminolnomatch.jpg[/qimg]

The second toe is neither a match for Amand or Raf.

No, it isn't. The print was considered compatible with Amanda, because of the rest of its measurements. But I found the attribution objectionable because of the small toes. As for the second toe, I don't know if the long toe can just be crooked or lifted on walking: in fact this is a partial print, seems like the person is only putting half of his/her feet on the floor, or might have been in a strange position.
But I don't know it it's Amanda's. And I'm no ortopedic. This footprint to me is a question mark.
What I know for sure is the print on the bathmat is a match to Sollecito and not to Rudy, and that there is also a smaller print on the bathmat. I also found that one of the footprints in luminol is compatible with Sollecito, but I think not with other luminol footprints.
 
Well I'm not that prejudicial.

It's not prejudice, Curatolo is simply an unreliable witness. People's memories do not get better with time, and anyone who claims to "recall" new, important, detailed facts long after the event and long after they are questioned might as well be claiming to have unbroken an egg.

It's also worth repeating yet again that once the evidence-based time of death is established, Curatolo gives Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito an alibi. Curatolo is a no-win game for the guilters, but you have to be capable of logic to see that, which is why they keep going back to that dry well.

No, but there is an important rule in play her about the processo indiziario and the definition of reasonable doubt.
The concept is, the defense may not consist in a series of alternative explanations that are all remote, weak or unlikely. One improbable explanation is acceptable, but not a series of explanations that all employ weak, improbable and/or remote alternatives. The defense cannot be "made" this way.

That's all well and good. The problem occurs when people with an agenda or who just aren't capable of reason start handwaving away perfectly plausible, and in fact far more likely explanations, as "remote" or "weak".

The luminol footprints are an excellent example. Absolutely nothing about the footprints ties them to the murder. They were not made in blood as far as the police's most sensitive tests can detect, they form no trail to or from the murder room or the bathroom where Guede washed Meredith's blood off himself, and they do not match anyone's feet in particular.

However the guilters remain adamant that any explanation other than "Amanda and Raffaele danced around in Meredith's blood barefoot, then miraculously cleaned up all the other footprints along with all of their DNA and other traces from the murder room using a clean-up method that left absolutely no trace" is "remote" and "weak". Their story is hilariously remote and weak, but as long as they keep a straight face when they tell it they can keep pretending that it's better than the alternative explanation: "Nobody knows what those footprints are about, but there's no evidence they are linked to the crime".

A "small" cleanup is enough.
There incontrovertible evidence of cleanup in the small bathroom, since the bathmat is entirely spattered with blood, while the floor is totally clean.

Stop making things up. The bathmat is not and never has been entirely spattered with blood.

There is evidence of clean up of the external of the doo because of "L9" trace, a residual smearing along the door frame left by a cleaning.
There is also the fact thet the luminol footprint were latent. They were probably diluted blood iyet at the origin, but they became completely latent and, together with them, also one shoeprint disappeared (was enhanced again with luminol).

We've already dealt with the luminol. Any remaining "cleanup" could just as well have been done by Guede as anyone else. He's a disorganised killer, they do all sorts of things that aren't well thought out.

No but, actually, not all the mops were found and tested. If Amanda was at Quintavalle the next morning, this was not to buy bleach, but to buy (a) new mop "head/s".

That's not evidence, it's speculation. Can you prove that you did not buy a mop head that morning?

Massei remarks that the stained bathmat on the clean floor is itself an obvious evidence of cleanup.

Massei is an idiot, we've established that beyond any doubt.

By my studies, they are absolutely not compatible with both. But I don't know if its' the case to show openly material about this; for sure not on this forum.

Oh boy, the "secret evidence" is back. What's next, [413]?

I strongly suspect absolutely nobody buys your claim to have secret inside information which the police could somehow not present in court but which proves that Raffaele did it. If your secret evidence existed Mignini would have brought it up a long, long time ago.

The fact is Amanda's blood was in the bathroom, on the faucet and on a plastic box. This, itself, cannot be dated. But contextually, it can be: Amanda dated it by saying it was not there the day before, and she did not provide possible explanations for why it could have fallen there in the morning. It was in a very visible place, where it would have been cleaned by Meredith if was there before, and we don't have memories by Amanda about blood losses (blood gets on finger, body etc) even the day before. We have all elements to define "unlikely" that this blood stain is unrelated to the context, since there is no element that would make it likely outside the context. It is not normal that one doesn't know, did not realize, if he/she had a blood loss the day before, it is not likely to have no clue about it; and it is not normal that one does not realize if is bleeding at the moment as amande recalls t have done in her e-mail: a normal person checks immediately on his/her body if thinks a blood stain comes from his/her ear face or or body; that would be the first thing, not calculating the size of the stain to conclude it's not yours because too big.

Since the police agree that Amanda had no wounds or any other sign she was involved in a struggle, what does this pile of speculation get you?

The idea that Amanda bled in the murder room and miraculously cleaned it all up, bled in the bathroom but forgot to use her magic powers to clean it all up, and then remembered her magic powers and used them to to heal the wound seems "remote", "weak" and "unlikely".
 
No, it isn't. The print was considered compatible with Amanda, because of the rest of its measurements. But I found the attribution objectionable because of the small toes. As for the second toe, I don't know if the long toe can just be crooked or lifted on walking: in fact this is a partial print, seems like the person is only putting half of his/her feet on the floor, or might have been in a strange position.
But I don't know it it's Amanda's. And I'm no ortopedic. This footprint to me is a question mark.
What I know for sure is the print on the bathmat is a match to Sollecito and not to Rudy, and that there is also a smaller print on the bathmat. I also found that one of the footprints in luminol is compatible with Sollecito, but I think not with other luminol footprints.

I can't imagine what kind of strange position that would have cause her second toe to shrink so much. I've tried some weird foot positions myself and could never get my second toe to be smaller than the big toe. My big toe would always get smaller too. If you have doubts about this print which you apparently do, then how can you maintain that these luminol prints are compelling evidence? If that's not Amanda's footprint, then wouldn't that suggest that the luminol was reacting to something else besides blood (unless you think it's logical to say that some other female was walking around in Meredith's blood?). If so, why can't the same be said for the other luminol prints?

And what's this business about having access to "studies" that have you convinced that Raff's foot is a match to the imprint on the bathmat but you can't reveal them? What kind of crap is that? If that's how it's going to be then you might as well stop posting here and go back to PMF.
 
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