Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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She already testified to them in the hand written note.

She also denied them in the handwritten note. You violate the principle of the presumption of innocence by giving more weight to the words that can be construed as indicating guilt than to those that can be construed as indicating innocence.
 
Here's a question: Why do so many people -- including, apparently the Kercher family -- seem so doggedly eager to believe that Amanda and Raffaele participated with a stranger in a bizarre sex-game murder of a nature that is almost unknown in criminal justice annals, rather than believing that Meredith surprised a known street thug burglarizing her home? Beyond the minutiae of Amanda's interrogation, I would enjoy reading some broader discussion of the mechanics of mass delusion.

Because the "street thug" version is just too boring for most people. The idea of an "evil, beautiful, sex crazed woman" participating in a sexually motivated homicide is far more interesting because cases where women are accused of such crimes are rare -- indeed it's practically unheard of. I also believe that a lot of people want Amanda to be guilty because she's beautiful and a woman. Misogyny drives a lot of giulters imo.
 
Well thank you! I couldn't miss the week of her exoneration. Though I guess I'm on week 3 or so. :rolleyes:

As far as I'm concerned even though she's no longer in a 'ten foot cell' it still 'won't be over until they clear her name.' :cool:



I think that's clear. That is why the press attention is freaking them out. They aren't use to having their actions examined by a press they can't control.

The fact they'd even dare to protest the decision the way they did, confronting a Parliamentarian in the Ministry of Justice as well as international media suggests an arrogance that defies understanding. I wonder how that will work out for them...it brings to mind the hubris of Patroclus, perhaps we'll see some 'hectoring' on this issue some day...

I get what you are saying. And you are making a good point. The problem is why doesn't she articulate that on the stand during her cross-x at trial. At trial she asserts her reason for confusion was a very high degree of stress, in other words they freaked her out to the point she was having trouble distinguishing reality. Which is similar to what you are saying but subtly different. It comes down to how much did she believe those images of her covering her ears for example were real.

Thanks! This is why I wanted to start a dialogue on this, you hit on the three things so far that I had to contemplate further as they didn't 'fit' as well. First the spontaneous statement she gave at the beginning of the trial, (or the pretrial I forget) the one where she's up there stammering and searching and says 'I didn't know what to do!' When I first heard that my inclination was she was probably lying, but as I thought more on the circumstances of the time it occurred to me here she was talking publicly about this for the very first time after the 'Foxy Knoxy' smear thus those people might well have been looking at her like she was some sort of diseased filth. :(

It reminded me of something, speaking at my brother's wedding and my Dad's funeral. I got up there and even though I knew what I wanted to say I did my fair share of stammering, searching for words and trailing off to pregnant pauses. A lot of people unused to speaking in front of crowds do. I recovered and did OK, but I do recall thinking 'if I mess this up it will be with me for the rest of my life!' It wouldn't surprise me in that situation that she might well have been thinking along those lines and not said everything she wanted to or the way she desired.

The second is squaring the 'Fine. We'll write that down. Fine' in response to her suggesting maybe her ears were covered when they asked her if she heard the scream, with what she writes in the note about hearing screaming in her head. That looks directly contradictory, doesn't it? However, they might have pushed her a little after that point to try to remember the scream better, to get a time or something corroborating it, so when they're writing it down she doesn't have that mental image, but they follow up a little and they get it? The thing is, she writes that note to them in an attempt to improve her situation one would imagine, why would she include common experiences that would seem to discredit her? If not, isn't the more likely explanation that what she wrote at the time was more probable to be accurate rather than eighteen or so months later anyway? If she's incorrect, isn't it the trial testimony on this that would be of lesser reliability?


In your version she actually believes them. That is a very high level of suggestibility. I think she was on hashish during that interrogation. If she had previously used hallucinogens I could buy it, or better if she were in fact on them at the time of the interview. Otherwise, this was rather quick for her to actually believe what she was saying. And again she didn't say this at trial.

My version is she doesn't know what to think. She has weak mental images that would account for the 'hard evidence' and Raffaele saying she's going out, but she doesn't really believe them, they don't seem 'real.' All messed up under intensive interrogation and being played like a fiddle by the police she signs the Statements, but as they're being compiled she keeps trying to get across something akin to this which is why those Statements keep saying things like 'vaguely' and how she's so 'confused.' She can't get it across with the translator who's not really relating to the police everything she's saying and might not herself be able to put it into Italian, thus Amanda writes the note as a 'gift' to try to explain.

As for the hash, I dunno. It would seem to make sense with Raffaele having smoked, but I've never heard anything to suggest Amanda was too. How long could hash last anyway? Both Amanda's testimony and that of the police suggests they were easy on her early, thus once they put the hammer down and they approach the 1:30 AM or so when she broke down, then the hash ought to have worn off, right?

What part didn't she say at the trial? Keep in mind her lawyers might have cautioned her about the prospect of a calunnia charge, thus leaving some things out might have been a product of that. Patrick Lumumba tells a very different story in court than he did before or after, Comodi even 'warned' one of the defense experts in court, and of course Mignini handed out some during the trial and the defense suggested some at the end of their presentation.


Sure because evidentially anytime the press disagrees with them, they charge the person with slander and arrest them. Mignini seems unfamiliar with the entire concept of a free press.

Did you see that CNN interview? That might be the first time in his life he's faced an adversarial press. He himself seemed to know it didn't go well.



Do you think there really was a tourism impact?

I dunno for sure, not enough data. My point is regardless of whether there is, if people think so anyway that's all that would matter.

A few months ago a French outlet published an article interviewing some of the people on the street in Perugia, and whether there is or not, the people quoted there seemed to think so, in rather descriptive terms. The objective evidence published elsewhere of less tourism was non-localized and could have been confounded by the economy, but even still the locals might not have taken macro economics and blamed any decline on the Amanda Knox verdict anyway. I've seen some say the school has seen a precipitous drop in enrollment, but I don't recall if they were referring to overall or just amongst Americans or English-speakers.



I think they already got partially neutered. They sort of picked the track they were on, on November 7th when they held their press conference. The courts saved them from themselves.

Let's hope not... ;)
 
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Here's a question: Why do so many people -- including, apparently the Kercher family -- seem so doggedly eager to believe that Amanda and Raffaele participated with a stranger in a bizarre sex-game murder of a nature that is almost unknown in criminal justice annals, rather than believing that Meredith surprised a known street thug burglarizing her home? Beyond the minutiae of Amanda's interrogation, I would enjoy reading some broader discussion of the mechanics of mass delusion.

Well I think for most people in the UK it is a the understanding that because of police misconduct no one is ever going to really understand why Meredith died. The loose ends are never going to be wrapped up. The Mignini version had all the major elements of a good plot:

  1. It had a narrative structure.
  2. Good ultimately triumphs
  3. The climax, has all the characters making moral choices:
    1. Amanda Knox decides to deceive and deceive
    2. Raffaele Sollecito is stupidly led to his destruction by his appetites and weaknesses
    3. Mignini stands firm in the face of international pressure.
  4. The story has all sorts of morals you can draw on

Instead what we are stuck with is a very morally ambiguous tale about a collection of various human frailties tying together. Mignini would not be where he is without an incompetent and dishonest police force, and a judiciary that is far too accommodating of eccentricity. The moral is one about jumping to conclusions, and not checking your assumptions and other such things the UK tabloid press' readership loves to do.

The fantasy is a much better fit.
 
Um. So if the appeal focused on the weakest evidence, then what does this guy think was the strongest evidence?

And what does he mean by "weakest" evidence. Is it the evidence most likely to be unreliable, or is it the evidence that is least probative of guilt? Because if it's the latter, then the DNA and Curatalo were definitely not the weakest. If its the former, then yeah, of course the appeal focuses on that.

This Johnson guy doesn't seem too smart.

Plus he misspelled entirety.
 
Well I think for most people in the UK it is a the understanding that because of police misconduct no one is ever going to really understand why Meredith died. The loose ends are never going to be wrapped up. The Mignini version had all the major elements of a good plot:

  1. It had a narrative structure.
  2. Good ultimately triumphs
  3. The climax, has all the characters making moral choices:
    1. Amanda Knox decides to deceive and deceive
    2. Raffaele Sollecito is stupidly led to his destruction by his appetites and weaknesses
    3. Mignini stands firm in the face of international pressure.
  4. The story has all sorts of morals you can draw on

Instead what we are stuck with is a very morally ambiguous tale about a collection of various human frailties tying together. Mignini would not be where he is without an incompetent and dishonest police force, and a judiciary that is far too accommodating of eccentricity. The moral is one about jumping to conclusions, and not checking your assumptions and other such things the UK tabloid press' readership loves to do.

The fantasy is a much better fit.

The Kerchers need to understand that the cops had the real killer caught before he killed Meredith and apparently let him go for no reason. Frank needs to add this to his for nothing post. They have put their trust in this system, yet have they even asked the question; Why did you let Rudy go?
 
She also denied them in the handwritten note. You violate the principle of the presumption of innocence by giving more weight to the words that can be construed as indicating guilt than to those that can be construed as indicating innocence.

No, she did not deny. She said she was very doubtful on them. She said she didn't know what the truth was.

This is a lie. She knew. And it is not a denial, it is a doubt, an open door.
 
I wish she would have sent a letter like that! Here's Pacelli's letter translated:

<snip>The girl in Seattle, on appeal by the prosecution acquitted of murdering Meredith Kercher, was sentenced to three years in prison for slandering the Congolese musician.,snip>

I wonder why he would do this when the conviction isn't legal until the review by the Supreme Court. Is he low on money? Is he hoping to shame her somehow into paying when she might not have to? I wonder if he's the lawyer in Patrick's case for 500k Euros against the police in Perugia in Strasbourg? Whatever happened to that?

Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I have a question. In the first trial, Amanda received an extra year for slandering Patrick (i.e., 26 years to Raffaele's 25 years). Now they say she was sentenced to three years for slandering Patrick. Does this mean Hellmann imposed a new, increased sentence for calunnia on Amanda as a result of the appeals trial? If so, he will have to justify in the motivation why he judged the calunnia as more serious than Massei did. What the heck?
 
I don't think so. If he was the sort of learn something from it he could have distanced himself from the report. Just indicate what the prosecution argued, what the defense argued and what the findings of the court were on matters of fact. Don't engage in rampent speculation, and then give an interview where you distance yourself further.

(material in italic is an example of what such an interview would look like, this Q&A never happened):
Q: Justice Massei the report seems not to contain a cohesive version of events?
A: That's correct, there were no cohesive versions of events discussed by the jury that didn't contradict critical pieces of evidence.
Q: But shouldn't that have led to an acquittal?
A: It would be improper for me to speculate in that manner.

I don't know if Massei can set aside a verdict or not. But even if not, by trying to fully support this nonsense with rampant speculation Massei lent the respect of Italy's judiciary to a travesty. He deserves to be thrown off the court for life for that trial.

For the trial itself, I agree. That caused the problem that he had to address in the Motivations Report with the aid of Christini (?) as the evidence adduced at trial did not add up to major contentions of the prosecution! Time of Death was the most obvious, JREF, thanks mostly to Kevin Lowe and LondonJohn knew basically a year ago that there was no getting around the lack of contents in the duodenum, which Massei tried to handwave away by mumbling 'many factors' numerous times before he lamely cherry-picked a 'hypothesis' and hoped people were fooled. They weren't, thus even non-delusional segment of the prosecution was forced to go with a ToD before 10:00 PM, almost two hours different than the ToD in Massei.

The point is that because of the way he conducted the trial he had to engage in that rampant speculation in the Motivations Report. He had to try to make it all work out, that's his job. The pity I have for him is having tried to do it myself I know what an impossible task it is.

Also keep in mind that a system with an automatic appeal with a Motivations Report along with some vestige of the inquisitorial 'guilty until proven innocent' theme, regardless of recent reforms, might tend to give the prosecution a wide latitude in the first trial and the second one saved for 'the defense strikes back' with the appeal documents prepared off the Motivations Report.

In a sense that's why I'm interested in the other discussion, as the Hellmann Report is going to have to provide evidence of Amanda being guilty of calunnia and having to justify that somehow. Thus they are going to have to come up with evidence to support that view, and I'm just curious what people can come up with to support a view that Amanda deliberately lied in her note, as that's probably going to be part of the argument.
 
Ah, so THAT'S why you haven't been having a dialogue with me! And here I thought it was because my arguments are valid and yours are not. My mistake. :o

I hate to break it to you, but everyone who uses a pseudonym, i.e., false name, is impersonating another.

That is, unless you actually believe you are Machiavelli....?

No using a pseudonym is not impersonating another.
Instead, stating of being a man while being a woman would be using cheating on one's identity. Not giving complete information on my identity is not cheating on m identity. If you think I am cheating on my identity, do not address any post to me. Anyway this is not a forum topic.

ps: I don't have any dialogue with you because you don't have any argument. This latter comment on pseudonyms is an example of your arguments.
 
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No, she did not deny. She said she was very doubtful on them. She said she didn't know what the truth was.

This is a lie. She knew. And it is not a denial, it is a doubt, an open door.

Your post is a lie. You don't know what she knew.
 
No using a pseudonym is not impersonating another.
Instead, stating of being a man while being a woman would be using cheating on one's identity. Not giving complete information on my identity is not cheating on m identity. If you think I am cheating on my identity, do not address any post to me. Anyway this is not a forum topic.

ps: I don't have any dialogue with you because you don't have any argument. This latter comment on pseudonyms is an example of your arguments.

I am not aware that you have ever stated you are a man. I do recall that once you speculated that I am a man-woman team. I didn't have a big hissy fit about it because it was ridiculous. If my question about you being Rita Ficarra were ridiculous, you would have ignored it, as you do all my other posts. Instead, you take the time to react. Very interesting.
 
I recently had an exchange with Michael at websleuths on this one. He said PMF "reported" this, admitted this lonely person commenting wished to remain anonymous and that PMF received no confirmation from a second source before running with this. When I first looked into this over a year ago I found some other comments elsewhere from this poster in a similar fashion, just happened to know somebody that knew somebody and he had the inside scoop on some big news event. Quite incredible, really.

But, but if it's not true why didn't the PR supertanker have Lifetime do a TV special on the false prank accusation?

Of course, I'm having fun with the dimness of her argument but this stupid tripe is just part of the endless PR that the GP sites have been putting out for 4 years. Sadly they have people still posting complete rubbish as comments.
 
Sorry if this has already been discussed, but I have a question. In the first trial, Amanda received an extra year for slandering Patrick (i.e., 26 years to Raffaele's 25 years). Now they say she was sentenced to three years for slandering Patrick. Does this mean Hellmann imposed a new, increased sentence for calunnia on Amanda as a result of the appeals trial? If so, he will have to justify in the motivation why he judged the calunnia as more serious than Massei did. What the heck?

I wondered about that too, but then I recalled something I'd read. Because of the murder sentence of 24 years, the other charges were reduced in length, that's a part of the process or something. Perhaps so they don't end up with judgments far exceeding the maximum 'life' sentence. Maybe Machiavelli could clear it up?
 
That is, I think, a fair representation of the position Machiavelli has advanced in this thread. That a person is not a suspect unless there is evidence, regardless of what the police think. I was trying to point out that police who are not incompetent or corrupt do not suspect people without a reasonable basis - otherwise known as evidence. Also, Machiavelli is wrong anyway, because under Italian law the right to counsel attaches when an interviewee says something "that might lead to his incrimination." So actual incrimination is not a prerequisite.

But the point is moot, because the police clearly believed that Knox was a suspect. How do I know? Easy. When she asked for a lawyer, they told her it would make things worse for her, and they also told her that they called a lawyer and got no answer. What they did not tell her was that she was not a suspect and thus had no right to an attorney, which is obviously what they would have said if that is how they perceived the situation.

I'm afraid there will be people going on forever with this nonsense. However I think I have given a correct representation of how the law works and everyone who decides to be objective can acknowledge that there is no argument for the "right to counsuel" to be made on this.

The terms that people here use like "incrimination" and "suspect" are English terms, which do not have an exact equivalent in Italian. In Italian we use a term similar to "elements of evidence" (thus not "incriminating" statements). We don't have an equivalent of arraignment and we don't use a term equivalent to "incrimination" until the preliminary judge's decision.

I think that if you knew about Italian news - for example Berlusconi called to be qustioned as a "witness" by the procura of Naples (search words: "Lavitola", "caso Escort", "Lepore" "Procura di Napoli") - you would just know what I am talking about.

The right to counsuel of Knox was never violated. Your can find corroboration of this if you read the Cassazione ruling on the topic (n. 16410 21. April 2008). No finding nor doubt of violation of rights.
The warning that a counsuel would make things worse is connected to the fact that it is instead the status of formal supect that would "attach" to the refusal to answer and call for legal counsuel.
 
I am not aware that you have ever stated you are a man. I do recall that once you speculated that I am a man-woman team. I didn't have a big hissy fit about it because it was ridiculous. If my question about you being Rita Ficarra were ridiculous, you would have ignored it, as you do all my other posts. Instead, you take the time to react. Very interesting.

A long time ago I'm pretty damn sure Machiavelli either here or elsewhere stated he's a man. For what it's worth I believe him.
 
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