Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Grinder]

Ok I read everything and I understand that situations like this can lead to wrong confessions. Once I was brought to the police for something that was stolen from the workplace where I just got a job. Obviously I was a suspect being the new guy.

The local police interogated me and I have to say that they were pretty harsh with me although they didnt beat me or used any physical violence against me.

I don't see why the new guy would obviously be the suspect. I will take your story at face value, but it's difficult.

Did they check your cell phone and a text message that said "see you soon to split it up" and indicate that had evidence that you were the only one that could have taken the stuff and that the recipient of your text message had been Id'ed as the fence?

But not for a second I would tell them something that wasnt real or tried to imagine something that could have happenen. I was around 22 years old at the time.

So I am not really convinced that what she said was a result of total confusion. Maybe some of the things were true and that was the only moment that she really broke down.

Good for you.

Please explain what the police chief meant when he said that she told them lies but after the interrogation she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct.

Please also give us a recap of how the police were harsh and what they said to you about the truths they knew.

Another thing about the bra clasp. How could itgot contaminated if the crime scene was seald. Nor Raffaele nor Amanda returned to that house after November the 2nd. So they probably didnt touch that bra clasp after the time of the investigations. Why did the bra clasp had Raffaele DNA on it?

Personally I think the clasp was dragged around attached to one the CSI's booties and he hid it under the trash because he was embarrassed. But who can know. We do know they found it the first day but didn't collect it. We know that many people entered the cottage between that time and when it was collected. We know that there were many other people's DNA on it.

But, if you don't believe that, please explain how there was no DNA of Raf's on the other side of the bra or anywhere else in the room. Explain how the clasp became bent and dirty.

Maybe it was just a drug deal went wrong?

Maybe Kokomani drove Rudy and ? to the cottage to steal the rent money and other stuff and Meredith came home.

 

[Caper]

What I don't believe is that Amanda was not there.

Why on earth would you believe that? What stupid theory could you come up with that puts her there... and not the boyfriend?

 

[Grinder]

Basically because without Amanda there is no theory. It is extremely unlikely that Raffaele was there and Amanda was not.
And they knew that Amanda had exchanged SMS with someone else just before the murder. First they wanted to know about it.
It is taken for granted here that at the time of the confession they knew that the phone owner was Lumumba. I have not seen proof of it so far.

Bolint it is not credible that the police found the text, asked about it but not to whom it was sent.

If you want to believe the discounted DNA evidence it would point to Raffaele committing the murder exactly how Rudy described it.

Raf's DNA was on the bra clasp. Meredith's DNA was on Raf's knife. The fact that Amanda's DNA was on a knife in the kitchen where she was staying means NOTHING.
What is more interesting is that Raf's DNA WASN'T on a knife in his own house. He obviously cleaned the knife after the murder and left it for Amanda to use.

Raf slips Amanda some of his Xanax that papa gave him for his nerves and anxiety because he fancies Meredith and after being with Amanda thinks he is a stud. He goes to the cottage and finds Meredith is rejected kills her. Rudy who actually did break in and was hiding in the toilet comes out and sees Raf but not knowing him just calls him an Italian.

That is as crazy as a satanic sex game gone bad, no?

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Wasn't Lumumbo a distant relative of this guy?

http://themedandvariations.blogspot.com/2008/12/mogambo-is-pleased.html

I may be mistaken though.

That guy looks more like Mignini to me.

True....I think it was the incorrect spelling of Lumumba (LUMUMBO) that tickled me, rather than a facial likeness, as it instantly reminded me of the character Mogambo for some reason - the actor that played him was quite a famous Bollywood actor (now passed away sadly).

 

[bolint]

it is not credible that the police found the text, asked about it but not to whom it was sent.

I don't think they had the texts.
Only the phone records that two texts were sent.
The phone number was not necessarily registered to Lumumba.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

I feel we are going round in circles re. the DNA evidence, its all very reminiscent of the OJ case which at least proves that the Italian police are not alone in bungling cases such as these. There was only one drop of Merediths blood in Filomenas room but somehow Amanda managed to stick her foot in it. She came home to a trainwreck of an apartment and decided to take a shower in a blood-spattered bathroom...this woman must be a nightmare to all DNA collectors!

Then there is the fact - undeniable! - that she lied from the very first minute long before the police even entered the scene.

Oh and then there was the fact that both she and Sollecito switched off their mobiles on the night of the murder.

Yes I suppose the handstands, cartwheels, lack of concern for the victim, poking tongues out, laughing, kissing bf can all be put down to an interesting way or coping with stress.

You're just teasing us, aren't you?

I'm beginning to hope so tbh.

At this point, surely no-one could be so misinformed.

 

[bolint]

Why on earth would you believe that? What stupid theory could you come up with that puts her there... and not the boyfriend?

Why on earth?

OK, tell me why on earth says Raffaele anything like that:

«Quella notte, quando Amanda è tornata, io mi ricordo di averle toccato una mano. Era fredda, come succedeva quando tornava di notte dopo il lavoro al pub.


That night, when Amanda came home, I rermember having touched her hand. It was cold, like it used to be when she had come home at night from the work in the pub.

Why on earth?

 

[BaileyBell]

Why on earth?

OK, tell me why on earth says Raffaele anything like that:



Why on earth?

I don't understand what you are saying. How does that prove anything at all? Her hands were cold...so she must be a cold blooded murderer? huh?

 

[bolint]

I don't understand what you are saying. How does that prove anything at all? Her hands were cold...so she must be a cold blooded murderer? huh?

Well, that was the murder night when she supposedly did not go to anywhere from his flat.
That is the problem.

 

[Whisky1981]

Expect a lot of "53 hours, 30 policemen, beating, no lawyer, illegal, coerced, etc."



And Rudy's DNA in the victims body? It was something more.

I can imagine a brutal situation like this. The girl is young and terrified, everything makes sense. But in that moment she really makes up a story this just dosent make sense to me.

Obviously it wasnt just a drug deal went wrong but I think this is just how it began.

Maybe they were all there smoking pot in the apartment when Meredith cought them and started arguing with them about what they were doing. Maybe Guede became violent at that point and Amanda and Raf just went along thinking it was a joke of some kind till the stabbing occured. At that point they ran away and Gude finished his dirty work staging a break in. Or maybe Amanda and Raf were there all the time and let Guede do his dirty work and then together staged a break in. Guede fled and they just decided that they would call the police the next morning as if they know nothing about what happened.

Just a theory but maybe some aspects of this are true.

 

[Kaosium]

On Nov 2 he did not remember the previous night?
That would be very unusual.
But it was not what happened.
Interestingly at that time he said that Amanda was with him in his flat.

I was referring to the interrogation and afterward. What are you referring to about November 2nd?

Yes, if he has something to confess.

They'd ask him anyway. They're about to interrogate a girl about a rape-murder, and they know she didn't do the rape part. They have them in separate rooms, they're getting information about one guy from Amanda, they don't even bother to ask Raffaele at all, yet they will later arrest him for murder. There has to be a reason for them not asking Raffaele about the murder, either to get him to confess or to corroborate Amanda's information. They said 'case closed'--they knew something about Patrick. Not interrogating Raffaele about the murder is mindless, it is one of the most suspicious things about the case.

Basically because without Amanda there is no theory. It is extremely unlikely that Raffaele was there and Amanda was not.
And they knew that Amanda had exchanged SMS with someone else just before the murder. First they wanted to know about it.
It is taken for granted here that at the time of the confession they knew that the phone owner was Lumumba. I have not seen proof of it so far.

They have these kids wiretapped up the wazoo, how could they not know their phone records? They're police, they should be able to call the company and get that info.

It is an unsupported claim of yours that he was stoned at the interrogation.

In police headquarters they tortured to me psychologically, put to me
in shackles and made me strip in front of the scientific, I was even
barefoot. I'm not even able to offer guilt, given my deep fu**ing
stupidity for the fact that I smoke cannabis I even forget what I have
eaten and also for that I carry behind a knife to nock the tables and
the trees and I carry it so often that I brought it also to the police
headquarters.

There's others if that doesn't spell it out clearly enough. Back in the first continuation I myself found this out for the first time reading the Perugia Shock archives, I hate to say it now but I must have laughed about that for pages, I could not believe that Raffaele had gone to the police station stoned!

Further corroboration if you think Raffaele is lying for whatever reason is that Monica Napoleoni when she first approached Amanda on the fifth berated her for not telling her that she'd been smoking that night. They'd just gotten done with Raffaele, and if he went in there stoned you gotta figure they'd ask him some questions about this little habit....

I'm not focusing only on them. I don't even think that Raffaele was there at the time of the murder. I even believe him that the first time he knew about Rudy was after the murder. I could even accept another complice, call him X, unkown so far, who was there.
What I don't believe is that Amanda was not there.

However, there's no reason to believe she was there either, other than the sort that could put me and you there as well. The trick here is the cops lied, and did so repeatedly, they had something to hide.

Remember, remember
The fifth of November
Cartwheels cupcakes and pot,
Coerced confessions and untaped sessions,
Should never be forgot!

 

[bolint]

Maybe they were all there smoking pot in the apartment when Meredith cought them and started arguing with them about what they were doing. Maybe Guede became violent at that point and Amanda and Raf just went along thinking it was a joke of some kind till the stabbing occured. At that point they ran away and Gude finished his dirty work staging a break in. Or maybe Amanda and Raf were there all the time and let Guede do his dirty work and then together staged a break in. Guede fled and they just decided that they would call the police the next morning as if they know nothing about what happened.

Can't be like that.
At 21:10 and even at 21:26 (the last known human interaction) there was activity on Raffaele's computer in his house. Plausibly it is Raffaele.
Meredith came home at around 21, so Raffaele could not be there at that time.

 

[Scorpion NITE]

Steve Moore has a new article up at his blog.

Thanks Halides1.

Another good read and some salient points once again from Steve Moore. I liked this bit:


''In Italian law, after a not guilty verdict, a defendant already incarcerated in prison obtains their release several hours later at the prison. Only very rarely will a judge order that a defendant be “released immediately.” On those rare occasions that this occurs, according to Italian attorneys I spoke to, it is considered a ‘slap’ at the prosecutor(s). Judge Hellmann ordered that Amanda and Raffaele be “released immediately.” The immediate release was an obvious signal of the judge’s extreme dissatisfaction the prosecution.''

 

[Bob001]

... But not for a second I would tell them something that wasnt real or tried to imagine something that could have happenen....

This is at the heart of the whole case. Amanda, a spacey 20-year-old coed from Seattle, did not behave as authorities in a small city in Italy expected someone in her situation to behave. But neither they, nor you, nor I, nor most observers have ever discovered your roommate's dead body in your home and been accused of killing her. We don't know how we would behave. We also don't know whether her behavior was described accurately. Was she really laughing in the police station? Or did she embrace a loved one for comfort when she was under stress? Did she do "cartwheels" in the police station? Or was she doing her yoga exercises to try to relax? We can't know. She behaved as she behaved, whatever it looked like. That doesn't mean she killed somebody.

.. Why did the bra clasp had Raffaele DNA on it?

It didn't. The appeals court's own experts determined that the DNA evidence was contaminated and misinterpreted.

 

[Dougm]

One thing I see being forgotten in this recent discussion about how the DNA could have gotten on the bra clasp is that Conti and Vecchiotti found this evidence "unreliable", for some very good reasons. Legally, that is the equivalent of it being nonexistent.

I realize that the court has not said this specifically (yet). However, given the C&V report, and the subsequent acquittals at least partly based on it, to be trying to prove here how the DNA got on the bra clasp is really out in left field.

Also, the crime scene was not sealed, that is part of the problem. Well, the police said it was sealed, but testimony in the appeal trial said that there were multiple breaches and the bra clasp collection video showed several opportunities for contamination just in those few minutes it was being collected. And there were multiple profiles on the clasp, not just Raffaele and Meredith.

As far as I am concerned, the bra clasp DNA is not a fact, at least not one that can be considered as evidence of guilt. There are so many ways it could have arrived there, and no way to prove which is true.

 

[Kaosium]

Well, that was the murder night when she supposedly did not go to anywhere from his flat.
That is the problem.

So there he's talking about Halloween? Is that from his 10:40 statement?

 

[Scorpion NITE]

It might be anyway, it seems to me Amanda feels absolutely terrible about the whole thing, despite the circumstances. Plus she might just pay him off so it isn't a news item in the Daily Mail every month until she does.

Frankly I find it repellent that he thinks those vague and confused statements with that note qualifying them forevermore later in the day that netted him two while weeks in jail is anything compared to what he did to Amanda afterward. He helped the smear campaign for four years, in court and out, lying and saying outrageous things about her in hopes of netting her a lifetime in jail, and he did all that on purpose in order to hurt her.

Very, very good point.

And one that required highlighting.

 

[Bob001]

...Maybe they were all there smoking pot in the apartment when Meredith cought them and started arguing with them about what they were doing. Maybe Guede became violent at that point and Amanda and Raf just went along thinking it was a joke of some kind till the stabbing occured. At that point they ran away and Gude finished his dirty work staging a break in. ...

Why is it so hard to believe that a known criminal with a history of break-ins while carrying a knife was surprised while he was burglarizing this apartment while carrying a knife? He was identified by his own bloody fingerprint because his prints were on file, and he was captured while fleeing Italy. Why does the story need to be more complicated than that? The simplest explanation is often the correct one.

 

[Dougm]

I can imagine a brutal situation like this. The girl is young and terrified, everything makes sense. But in that moment she really makes up a story this just dosent make sense to me.

Obviously it wasnt just a drug deal went wrong but I think this is just how it began.

Maybe they were all there smoking pot in the apartment when Meredith cought them and started arguing with them about what they were doing. Maybe Guede became violent at that point and Amanda and Raf just went along thinking it was a joke of some kind till the stabbing occured. At that point they ran away and Gude finished his dirty work staging a break in. Or maybe Amanda and Raf were there all the time and let Guede do his dirty work and then together staged a break in. Guede fled and they just decided that they would call the police the next morning as if they know nothing about what happened.

Just a theory but maybe some aspects of this are true.

The problem with your theory is that there is no more evidence to support it than there is that I was there smoking pot, and I have never been to Italy.

I understand your questions about why Amanda would make up the story about Lumumba. For a hint, take the Amanda we watched right before the appeals trial verdict -- tired, on edge, who broke down sobbing, almost unable to stand, even though the verdict had gone her way. Now take that person, not as stressed, but about equally sleep deprived and scared. Then have a group of professional cops who are experienced in interrogations put the heat on her. I think they could have gotten her to say the moon is made of green cheese if they wanted to.

 

[smkovalinksy]

I can imagine a brutal situation like this. The girl is young and terrified, everything makes sense. But in that moment she really makes up a story this just dosent make sense to me.

Obviously it wasnt just a drug deal went wrong but I think this is just how it began.

Maybe they were all there smoking pot in the apartment when Meredith cought them and started arguing with them about what they were doing. Maybe Guede became violent at that point and Amanda and Raf just went along thinking it was a joke of some kind till the stabbing occured. At that point they ran away and Gude finished his dirty work staging a break in. Or maybe Amanda and Raf were there all the time and let Guede do his dirty work and then together staged a break in. Guede fled and they just decided that they would call the police the next morning as if they know nothing about what happened.

Just a theory but maybe some aspects of this are true.

This might be a plausible theory, except for the fact that the seasoned and highly esteemed appellate judge found there was no evidence to place Knox and Sollecito at the crime.