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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I'm not saying you're wrong but it doesn't make much sense. So you mean that they sometimes read the formula "per non avere commesso il fatto"from § 1 when they want to give a verdict according to § 2?

But why would they do this? To confuse the press and the public?

There is no "why", it's just the structure of the dispositivo. You must chose a formula, and its condition. There are four formulas for acquittal, while there isn't a formula for the case of "reasonable doubt". This option instead is defined by a paragraph, the second condition of the art 530, reasonable doubt can be applied in various aspects to all formulas.
A key word in second paragraph of 530 is "anche". This means, so it is interpreted, all forms of acquittal apply to paragraph 2 as well.
 
You know, now that they've been found not guilty I guess it's moot. But I've never heard what I think really happened ever discussed and when I try looking at those threads my head spins.

I think RG "killed" Meredith Kercher that night alone and left her for dead. Only she didn't die for two hours ...


Can you find any support for your belief that Meredith could have survived for a couple of hours with the knife wounds she sustained? Do any experts even imply that she wasn't dead within minutes.
 
contamination conclusions

Machiavelli,

How was Dr. Novelli able to conclude that there was no contamination if he did not have access to the elecronic data files. If he had access to them, why was he allowed access to them when the defense was not, during the first trial?
 
Darth Rotor,

The Perugian authorities kept Lumumba in prison for about a week after the Swiss professor paid his own way to Perugia to give him an alibi.
It is strange how they were able to find a witness who said the bar was closed that night, but they were not interested in what the Swiss academic had to say. Then PLE kept Patrick's bar closed for months after that. Sounds to me as if the authorities did the throwing. MOO.
OK, I see that and wonder at who gave them the tip ... ;)

On the other hand, who gives a flying fart about a Swiss academic? :D
 
Sorry to intrude, but I am wondering why you are still arguing about this?

The judgment has been rendered.

When and if the prosecution can get its appeal heard, which I understand it has moved to do, then perhaps it is time to re-engage.

For the moment, the convictions (other than throwing a bar owner under the bus) have been vacated.
That you don't know why people are still fighting is a good indication you never understood why they were fighting in the first place. Have you put any time into reading what is written at perugiamurderfile.org?

And I have to ask, when did you become such a peacenik? ;)
 
Watch out for those Swiss academic types

OK, I see that and wonder at who gave them the tip ... ;)

On the other hand, who gives a flying fart about a Swiss academic? :D
Or any other academic, for that matter. Do you know why academic turf fights are so bitter? Because the stakes are so small.
 
She disturbingly reminded me quite a lot of an ex-girlfriend. Of course, my ex-girlfriend actually is a satan incarnate devil worshipping witch, but that's another story .....:mad:

On another note, delving in to this case led me to http://www.innocenceproject.org, which is focused on US cases and has some quite astounding results.

Does anyone know of a more global organisation addressing such problems? Their links page indicates not much going on in Europe outside a Leeds based UK unit.

IIRC - Dr. Greg Hampkin and the Idaho Innocence Project are trying to get a innocence project branch started in Ireland.
 
I think Mignini is also due for another trial and resentencing for his abuse of office conviction. He has obviously proved himself in this case to be a recidivist and habitual offender which is exactly what Judges do not like.

Don't forget Maresca found the music loving, toilet hugging, brave defender of Meredith, and comforter of her as she lay dying, (before nicking off to the local disco for a dance) Rudy, to be very credible.

He also found Aviello with his eight or so calunnia convictions 'highly credible' when he claimed that a member of Parliament attempted to bribe him with a sex change for absolutely worthless testimony that could be and would be exposed as such almost instantly by the Court.
 
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Just so that I am clear about this - if Rudy dripped some of Meredith's blood into the sink which already had Amanda's DNA in it and the blood drop(s)(Meredith's) fell onto that DNA (Amanda's) - could that not have been the 'mixture'? Or, of course, the way it was swabbed?

Of course it could be, that's what happened. They found a substance that was (presumably) confirmed as blood with the DNA of two people on the same swab. There's tests that can be run to determine if it is a mixture of blood, or blood from one person mixed in with the DNA of another. They didn't run those tests, (as far as we know...) instead they claimed it was Amanda and Meredith's blood together and it couldn't be proven otherwise with simple DNA testing. Massei couldn't use that, as it reversed the burden of proof, but it didn't stop the prosecution from getting people like Andrea Vogt and Barbara Nadeau to believe so.
 
Yes, he has a whole series on Ms. Knox. the most recent one is here. When statement analysis faults Ms. Knox for saying, "I did not kill. I did not rape. I did not steal," [and] "I was not there," is considered being unreliable because it is not specific enough, I part company with it.

The interrogation was conducted in Italian, which Knox speaks very well - after four years in an Italian prison. Not much else to do, I imagine. At the time of the interrogation, however, she did not speak it well. So basically you're right and the guy at the link is an idiot. But I think you already knew that.:)
 
What I've highlighted are merely prosecution accusations, except for the one ('didn't hesitate') so ludicrous (53 hours with police in 89 hours--the statements coming at the end of it) not even a corrupt prosecution could contend, and might have simply been a poor choice of words or a misunderstanding about the details of the case. At any rate they are not facts. What I bolded is what actually happened, and I don't know if that implies a progression in your thinking on this matter for sure, but are you interested in discussing it?

If your point is that no one was insane to think Amanda guilty because of what they heard about her signing those statements and wrote that note, I'd have to agree. However I'd have to say that someone who read those statements and note and understood the context of what caused them to be written and still believed the prosecution and police regarding her 'knowingly accusing an innocent man' displays a narrowness of mind or understanding that suggests it could only be the result of motivated cognition or simply being pig-ignorant.

Here's the statements she signed, and the note she wrote later on the 6th. If you haven't read through them recently, or ever for that matter, perhaps it would be helpful to do so now. Then read this and note where the link comes from, that's a law enforcement link with collected information to help police officers, it's not simply something from some criminal defense institution with an agenda to cast doubt on confessions.

I don't want you to read that simply as evidence that the statements were coerced, as I understand it that isn't an issue with you, but to understand the nature of coerced confessions, and how you're simply mistaken in the belief that police 'brainwashing' subjects is somehow 'woo-soaked.' Incidentally, as that link is older, you'll see the concept of an internalized false confession referred to as a 'hypothesis,' however that's not what the evidence suggests actually happened to Amanda Knox. What occurred was more the basis of an internalized false confession, false memory syndrome, and using that term in Amanda's case is simply shorthand in my view.

I certainly understand if you believe that under pressure Amanda accused Patrick Lumumba of the murder, and as a result it caused you to be suspicious of her, and that innocentisti peddling stories of 'brainwashing' sounds initially like rather a pathetic rationalization of her behavior--especially if you are unfamiliar with false memory syndrome--which you'll note that link not only cannot deny, it ridicules the idea it can be denied. However the reason I think this important is that going over this in detail for the first time was what caused me to realize that not only were Raffaele and Amanda not guilty, they were highly likely to be totally innocent. In part that's because the story of the police and prosecution on the interrogation and the arrests of Patrick, Amanda and Raffaele is so revealing as to their incompetence and corruption. Do you even know what it is? What Ficarra, Zugarini, Napoleoni, and Domino testified to regarding the interrogation? The conflicting accounts Mignini has given as to his presence and why the interrogation wasn't taped?

What Amanda and Raffaele have to explain about that night in the Questura is complicated and to some perhaps even highly unlikely, what the police and prosecution contend is utterly ridiculous and provably untrue. That's why you won't see what (in totality) the police and prosecution testified to defended in any of the 70k or so posts about the case on JREF from anyone who knows anything about it--especially the ones who think her guilty.

One other thing you may wish to take into consideration is things like Amanda accusing a black man to save herself, and that she was 'cold' after the murder were disseminated for the purpose of suggesting to people like yourself that she was guilty of murder, they do not stand scrutiny and the latter one was even disproven by testimony from police and neutral sources in court. It was simply a smear, it is not uncommon elsewhere but is especially prevalent in Italy in high profile cases due to the lack of sequestered juries and the complicity of the Italian press which is easily cowed with calunnia and diffamazione charges and suits.


The police were the ones to bring up Mr. Lumumba, and they encouraged her to say she saw him. They brow beat her and deprived her of sleep - 43 hours of interrogation in a week, including an all night session the last night where she was tag teamed by 12 detectives. Yelling at her. In a foreign language. Threatening her with 30 years in prison. Telling her she'd never see her family again. Refusing to let her see a lawyer. Refusing to give her food or drink.

Nothing she said in that interrogation is of any evidentiary value whatsoever, at least if the object is to find the truth.

They had to call extra detectives in from Rome to do the all nighter. It was planned in advance to do it at night, even though Knox was available all day. The purpose of such an interrogation is to deprive the subject of sleep in order to cause disorientation and desperation. The police rotate to stay fresh, while the subject becomes increasingly exhausted and confused. The purpose is not to elicit the truth - for that, you need an alert subject. The purpose is to get what you want out of the subject. No one could withstand that without making contradictory statements, and even despite that Knox maintained her innocence. Far less coercive interrogations have produced false confessions from American suspects who were convicted and later proven innocent by DNA.
 
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