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Fareed Zakaria: The founding fathers

Slavery was disobedience to the Constitution?
Not giving women the right to vote was disobedience to the Constitution?

Slavery is a violation of the 5th, 13th and 14th Amendments.
Refusing a right to vote on account of sex is a violation of the 19th Amendment.

Just out of curiosity am I correct in assuming you are a product of a government school?
 
I was talking about the Constitution as it existed at the time of ratification in 1787.

And do you have something against government schools?
 
It's a flawed economic argument, fallaciously used from the very beginning. But the question has to due with the illegality of Federal Reserve Notes to which you seem to have no argument.

Just saying so doesn't make it so, when you argue here you have to say WHY you think an argument is flawed.

And I addressed Federal Reserve, but you didn't seem to understand it.

Let me spell it out; The USA has chartered official banks several times in its history, including while the Founding Fathers were still in power. These banks have all issued scrip. The Federal Reserve is just the latest official bank. The Federal Reserve issues scrip. No difference. And Constitutional even if you are an "original intent" Borker.
 
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Just saying so doesn't make it so, when you argue here you have to say WHY you think an argument is flawed.

And I addressed Federal Reserve, but you didn't seem to understand it.

Let me spell it out; The USA has chartered official banks several times in its history, including while the Founding Fathers were still in power. These banks have all issued scrip. The Federal Reserve is just the latest official bank. The Federal Reserve issues scrip. No difference. And Constitutional even if you are an "original intent" Borker.

But scrip is not constitutionally enforceable as payment for debt. Nor may Congress farm its its mandate to "coin" money to a private banking syndicate, much less issue scrip in place of coin and make it legal tender. Legal tender can only be gold or silver coin.
 
I was talking about the Constitution as it existed at the time of ratification in 1787.

And do you have something against government schools?

The Constitution as adopted in 1787 did not prohibit women from voting and some women did vote.
 
That is not true. Segregation occurred not because of but in spite of Constitutional Guarantees. And it was the Constitution and the Declaration that provided the basis for Civil Rights Laws that corrected the practice.

Rather circular reasoning.
 
Re: Not enough gold?

Just saying so doesn't make it so, when you argue here you have to say WHY you think an argument is flawed..

It was answered some 200 years ago:

"If the quantity of gold or silver in the world employed as money were exceedingly small, or abundantly great...the variation in the quantity would have produced no other effect than to make the commodities for which they were exchanged comparatively dear or cheap. The smaller quantity of money would perform the function of a circulating medium as well as the larger."

- David Ricardo
 

Other than guys like Madison, Adams, Jefferson, Washington, Franklin, Mason, Sherman, and their associates I can't think of any off hand, except for Reagan, perhaps. I don't think that Lenin, Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, FDR or Obama can quite compare. Perhaps you can think of some better examples. But I sorta doubt it.

:dl:
 
When was this "until recently"? Have you forgotten that in your country segregation was only finally outlawed in 1964, for most of your country's existence "freest" is not the word I would use.

The right-wing idolizes the past as the golden-age of freedom. Either they forget the sins (slavery, segregation, christian privilege, no voting for women) of the past, or they don't consider them sins. Which is worse?
 
The Constitution as adopted in 1787 did not prohibit women from voting and some women did vote.

And yet many were prohibited from voting. Was this in contravention to the Constitution or did your perfect document somehow not allow for the protection of their voting rights?
 
The Senate is generally considered more responsible for what it is worth.
Yes, they are. I'm not saying directly elected politicans are incapable of acting responsibly.

And how would he be? A city of a million people anywhere would be just as important as said city anywhere else. The President would be beholden to cities more than rural areas. That makes sense considering that's where 90% or so of our population is.
That only makes sense if the amount of "beholding" is proportional to the population. But if the President is more than 90% beholden to the urban population, then it doesn't make sense. And one reason it might work out disproportionately is because it's cheaper on a per-voter basis to buy ad space in places with high densities of people. generatign ads targeted to and then buying ad space for voters in Chicago (2.7 MM people) is cheaper on a per-voter basis than buying ad space in both Dakotas and Montana (2.5 MM). And thus people will tend to concentrate their campaigns in Chicago more than in the Dakotas and Montana. And that will also skew candidate selection.

I'd advocate public financing of all elections to avoid undue influence and the current things that waste time.
I think public financing would we a different topic, and one I suspect on which we do not differ.

But certainly, things were better 60-some years ago. Social Security, Medicare, and things like that could never be passed today.
Social Security was passed in 1935, during the Great Depression. Medicare was an offshoot of that bill passed in 1965 in the middle of the Viet Nam War. I don't think that constitutes things being "better". Prior to the Depression, there was no consensus on government programs. It was the Depression that made us so desperate as to try anything. LBJ used national mourning after JFK's assassination to help push through his agenda and in that sense the political tactics he used are no different than the tactics W used to push through the Patriot Act.

We may laud the results of LBJ's tactics and decry the results of W's tactics, but the means used to get those passed are not much different.

Why would you go after "regions of votes", absent the electoral college?
Because the marginal cost of seeking an additional rural voter is much greater than the marginal cost of seeking an additional urban voter because urban voters -- being urban -- are concentrated nicely in populous media markets.

Here is a map of population density. I'd like one with even more granularity as the largest category is still the 250 persons/sq. mi. to 66,995 person/sq. mi. At any rate, you can hit the vast majority of Americans with political campaigns by specializing in a very small range of media markets centering around a dozen locations:the Northeast Corridor (DC-Philly-New York-Boston), Los Angeles, San Francisco, Buffalo, Dallas-Ft. Worth, Northern Ohio, Chicago, Miami, and Orlando. With the electoral college, at least some effort is made in other regions. (That's a 2000 map; by 2020, Much of the Northern Ohio population may be replaced by a larger Florida and Dallas market, and Denver and Fayetteville NC.)
 
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And yet many were prohibited from voting. Was this in contravention to the Constitution or did your perfect document somehow not allow for the protection of their voting rights?

It could be construed as in contravention to the 5th Amendment or consistent with the 10th Amendment.
 
The right-wing idolizes the past as the golden-age of freedom. Either they forget the sins (slavery, segregation, christian privilege, no voting for women) of the past, or they don't consider them sins. Which is worse?

I doubt if you could find a nation in the 20th century that did not have significant ethnic minorities that did not also have segregation policies. For example, the UK as evidence by the Race Relations Act of 1965.

"The new Race Relations Act comes into force today making racial discrimination unlawful in public places.

The new act forbids discrimination on the "grounds of colour, race, or ethnic or national origins" in public places and covers both British residents and overseas visitors.

But there have already been claims by anti-racist groups and Labour backbenchers that the new law does not go far enough, as it does not cover housing or employment.

The new law does not make racial discrimination a criminal offence - and only the very worst offenders will be referred by the Attorney General to county court."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/8/newsid_4457000/4457112.stm

I suspect you'd have to go to a relatively ethnically "pure" country like Japan to find anything different. Most segregation, wherever you find it, is largely voluntary.
 
Because the marginal cost of seeking an additional rural voter is much greater than the marginal cost of seeking an additional urban voter because urban voters -- being urban -- are concentrated nicely in populous media markets.
I don't understand this response. I ask you why you'd go after regions of votes rather than demographic clusterings of votes, and you say that the marginal costs of going after urban votes is lower than with rural votes?

It still seems like you're bound by considerations, like states and voting districts, which would be irrelevant in one-man-one-vote popular election. Just go after 'rural southern white men' or 'rust belt factory workers' as a demographic, and be done with it. There's no reason to go town by town.
 
But scrip is not constitutionally enforceable as payment for debt. Nor may Congress farm its its mandate to "coin" money to a private banking syndicate, much less issue scrip in place of coin and make it legal tender. Legal tender can only be gold or silver coin.

No, court cases up to the SC level say that scrip is legal money.

It escapes some people who have little civics education, but a SC decision stands at a Constitutional level, and is for all intents and purposes part of the Constitution.

See; Knox v Lee and Parker v Davis

Though there was some legitimate controversy prior to those decisions, there is no legitimate controversy for the last 130 years.
 
It was answered some 200 years ago:

"If the quantity of gold or silver in the world employed as money were exceedingly small, or abundantly great...the variation in the quantity would have produced no other effect than to make the commodities for which they were exchanged comparatively dear or cheap. The smaller quantity of money would perform the function of a circulating medium as well as the larger."

- David Ricardo

And that flies in the face of actual experience. Go re-read the Autobiography of Benjamin Franklin for his experiences with currency scarcity and the chilling effect that had on commerce.
 
Well those that want a return to the Gold Standard rejected reality long ago.
 
But scrip is not constitutionally enforceable as payment for debt. Nor may Congress farm its its mandate to "coin" money to a private banking syndicate, much less issue scrip in place of coin and make it legal tender. Legal tender can only be gold or silver coin.

First, the limitation in the Constitution that only gold or silver coin can be made a tender in payment of debts only applies to the states and not the federal government. That is obvious due to the fact the clause begins with 'No State'.

Second, you need to look up the etymology of the word 'coin' and learn how it was commonly used in mid 15 century to early 20th century. In fact, Supreme Court Associate Justice Joseph Story used the term 'coin' when referring to paper money being issued by banks chartered by a state.

Third, the Supreme Court upheld the ability of the federal government to create a bank and to have that bank issue circulating notes back in 1819. Since the Justices on that Supreme Court knew and probably corresponded with members of the Constitutional Convention, they probably had a better grasp on the intent of the founders than you do.

Fourth, you need to stop getting your information about the Federal Reserve from the conspiracy theory nonsense websites you have obviously been reading.
 
It's telling that we have to compare the US to non-states in order to make sense out of this "sovereigns nations" stuff, and that the "similar things" in the EU are not identified (nowhere in the structure of the EU do we see malapportionment approaching the levels that we see in the US Senate). The Articles of Confederation failed, the US under the Constitution is a much stronger union than the EU or the UN, and the second American revolution (the Civil War) was a (re)formative experience. This necessary shift in conception needs to be acknowledged, but Americans have distorted views of their political reality, thanks in part to the need to justify the absurdity of our dysfunctional representative structure. We're still living under the Articles of Confederation when it's convenient in defending the stupider aspects of the sacred Constitution.

It's hopeful that someone with a national platform is talking about it.

Sorry for getting back to you so late. I guess my best response is I am an Arizonan first, American second.
 

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