Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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As it was not the only one.

The kitchen window from the terrace, Amanda's window and Meredith's window were also without grids.

Real burglars, who entered the house during the trial twice, used the kitchen window both times.

Irresponsibly they did not read this forum. :D


Since the place was essentially abandoned, there was no need for a warning rock to be thrown from a place with a quick escape route.
 
I thought I read that only the prosecution would be allowed rebuttals? Could someone please clarify?

Thanks in advance!
Yes, me too--- I had assumed that - as under U.S. jurisprudence - the prosecution, having the burden of proof, speaks last.

But obviously, if Hellman has said one attorney from each side, then they both will rebutt.
 
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Since the place was essentially abandoned, there was no need for a warning rock to be thrown from a place with a quick escape route.


You know what? If I was staging a burglary in that way, the last place I'd leave the rock would be in a carrier bag.

Rolfe.
 
Yes, me too--- I had assumed that - as under U.S. jurisprudence - the prosecution, having the burden of proof, speaks last.

But obviously, if Hellman has said one attorney from each side, then they both will rebutt.


In English jurisdiction, if my memory serves me, the defence speaks last. Though it's been a while since I sat through an entire case.

Rolfe.
 
Maybe Lumumba can't get past his outrage that AK implicated him. The police will have blamed her for his arrest and subsequent shut down of his cafe and he's clearly not followed the demolition of the prosecution's case. Perhaps he doesn't want to believe that the police stitched him up because that would mean suing them rather than her and it's probably not a good idea to make an enemy of the police in provincial Italy.
 
It was being wondered on websleuth's if the live open media represents a desire to have the world see the 2 defendants go free, or the converse desire to have the world see Italy stand up to American media pressure....

In any case, it will not be long now...
Amanda Knox's lawyers demand: Set her free

mediaManager


http://www.seattlepi.com/amanda-knox/article/Amanda-Knox-s-lawyer-2192664.php#ixzz1ZMLTf0hx
 
You know what? If I was staging a burglary in that way, the last place I'd leave the rock would be in a carrier bag.

Rolfe.

I know. Why obscure the rock at all?

I'd also like to add to my other statement that once no one responded to the warning rock, it would have been unwise of Rudy to break another window which would have created additional risk of someone hearing. So he wisely entered the window already broken. No hard feat for him since he had done something just like that to a Lawyer's office as evidenced by that lawyer's testimony and Rudy's possession of his stolen laptop.
 
As it was not the only one.

The kitchen window from the terrace, Amanda's window and Meredith's window were also without grids.

Real burglars, who entered the house during the trial twice, used the kitchen window both times.

Irresponsibly they did not read this forum. :D


Perhaps they did read this forum (though the discussion here was years after the event). As I've pointed out before, the patio window would be the best point of entry if you knew for certain that the cottage was not occupied.
 
In English jurisdiction, if my memory serves me, the defence speaks last. Though it's been a while since I sat through an entire case.

Rolfe.
To my thinking, this makes more sense, and despite what jurisprudence standards state, the defense often would seem really and actually to have the burden of proof.
 
Where did I ever say I had a strong belief in guilt? Just a couple of pages ago I said the result was too close to call. Unlike many here I'm not convinced of their innocence, but will shrug my shoulders if they are acquitted. That is my right, although it hasn't stopped a few over the journey from telling me that it isn't.
It's your right to shrug your shoulders and act dismissive? Well, yes, it should be, but don't try behaving in a way that suits you if you find yourself in Perugia after a murder has taken place. If that were to happen, and if you behaved within your so-called rights, you could be judged guilty by your behavior and find your butt in the interrogation room, and then soon after recanting your confession to a murder you had nothing to do with.
 
I've always had a notion Rudy was looking under the bed. Its common in small rooms like that people use beneath the bed as some "safe" place for valuables.

When you get a chance, look at the photo's of the Italian girls rooms. Laura's especially is meticulously clean yet the drawer is left open and the spread near the head is ruffled.
 
As it was not the only one.

The kitchen window from the terrace, Amanda's window and Meredith's window were also without grids.

Real burglars, who entered the house during the trial twice, used the kitchen window both times.

Yeah, right. The only difference that the police sealed shut Filomena's window and they were sure the house is abandoned.

And you're not seriously suggesting Meredith's window was as accessible as Filomena's, are you?
 
Looks like CDV and Ghirga did well today.No courtesy or white gloves treatment of the Perugian prosecution and their goons.
 
Can anyone explain to me what exactly is the prosecution's story line? There have been so many versions, I can't keep it straight. Here is what I think it is at this point.

- MK arrives at the cottage at 9PM or so
- AK and RS are watching the cottage from 9:30 to 11PM or so.
- they meet Rudy between the park and the cottage
- at 11+ they enter the cottage rape and kill MK for no reason
- they exit the cottage at about 11:30, going up the metal staircase, then go somewhere
- AK and RS return to the cottage, clean up with and without shoes, and manage not to get a trace of blood on their clothes
- they stage the break-in, in bare feet, then return to RS's apt
- they return to the cottage at 10AM or so with a mop and bucket
- then the police arrive

I don't agree with this but I have hot heard their version of what actually happened, just fragmented pieces. I understand the countradicts the statements of Rudy, AK and RS.
Have I summarized it correctly?
 
I'm not impressed with the counter arguments made by the defense in response to the luminol "evidence". It should have been stressed that Luminol reacts to many substances and is merely a presumptive test for blood. More importantly though is the fact that Amanda's actual print has a second toe noticeably bigger than her big toe whereas the only clear footprint does not. This really should have been stressed also.


Be fair. Popper has done a superhuman job, but all he's been able to do, and the tweeters, is give rough edited highlights. There could well be points made that nobody managed to report.

Rolfe.
 
Can anyone explain to me what exactly is the prosecution's story line? There have been so many versions, I can't keep it straight. Here is what I think it is at this point.

- MK arrives at the cottage at 9PM or so
- AK and RS are watching the cottage from 9:30 to 11PM or so.
- they meet Rudy between the park and the cottage
- at 11+ they enter the cottage rape and kill MK for no reason
- they exit the cottage at about 11:30, going up the metal staircase, then go somewhere
- AK and RS return to the cottage, clean up with and without shoes, and manage not to get a trace of blood on their clothes
- they stage the break-in, in bare feet, then return to RS's apt
- they return to the cottage at 10AM or so with a mop and bucket
- then the police arrive

I don't agree with this but I have hot heard their version of what actually happened, just fragmented pieces. I understand the countradicts the statements of Rudy, AK and RS.
Have I summarized it correctly?
Yes, your synopsis is accurate in the outline of the prosecution theory. TOD and a myriad of other items contradict this strongly; let us just hope the jury and judges conclude this as well.
 
RWVBWL
Thank you for posting that from Popper and special thanks to Popper, who may well be banned from that place after posting such an excellent translation of what was said! Interesting to note that practically everything the defence have argued thus far has been a testament to knowledgeable posters on this thread, who have covered it so extensively and so accurately.


This little snippet was very interesting and something I do not recall:

''...Also on 4/11/2007. There is a recording at police. The marche region guys. One boy says "is it premeditated?" "no, it is one who knew noone was there, or crazy". "which is the window of Meredith? ... it is the room of Marta's room [ girl living there before]" "there is a little window even I went up there once"
Hi Scorpion NITE,
All the thanks go to Popper, what a nice job he did!
Though I would have been banned there in a heartbeat because I have reached a different conclusion than they have after viewing a lot of the same evidence, PMF is a great place for information, most folks seem pretty intelligent and sincere, IMHO, though they too get angry, but are allowed to over there...

I too had noticed the mention of the previous tenant Marta,
and thought that the guy who lived downstairs was just saying that he went inside her bedroom once.

But your bolding "there is a little window even I went up there once" caught my eye and I wonder if it means something else?
What do you think that it means?
 
To be honest, what we're seeing here from yeti101 (and, from a lesser extent, from lionking) is a form of diversion I'm quite familiar with when speaking about the case with those of the pro-guilt orientation. When it comes to discussion of the evidence of the case, switch the discussion to the "confession"/"false accusation"/whatever. Interestingly enough, this line of inquiry is not pressed in the sense one might expect, as "well, why should there be any doubt of guilt, since Knox herself confessed?" Instead, emphasis is placed on the "false accusation" aspect, as a way to portray Knox as having freely tried to get someone she "knew to be innocent" punished for the crime.

In fact, it's back to arguing the case, not on its merits, but on the supposed bad character of the defendants -- much as the "dirty-souled, she-devil, spell-casting witch" rhetoric does -- by implying that one or both is such a bad person that they well could have committed the crime. After all, if you'll willingly commit perjury and try to get an innocent person punished, why wouldn't you commit murder without a second thought? And, if you can plant the idea in people's minds that these two were conscienceless enough to easily commit murder, it becomes much easier for them to imagine them doing so, and deciding that said imagined scene is what really happened.

But, in fact, that is an illegitimate way to decide a criminal case. (Although, ironically enough, it has a certain parallel in the supposed actions of the Perugian police during the investigation -- repeatedly telling Knox that "they knew" the murderer's identity, and inviting her to "imagine" what might have happened, until she agreed to it herself.) A criminal case should always be decided on the evidence itself...and, at this point, there's virtually none left standing to implicate Knox or Sollecito, but a vast amount implicating Guede and only Guede.

If the evidence isn't present to convict, the character of the defendants should matter not at all. It shouldn't make a difference if Amanda Knox was a Mother Teresa or a Mommie Dearest. Even if she was the most evil person on earth, if the evidence doesn't prove that she was in that room and stabbed Meredeth Kercher to death, then justice requires she be acquitted. The same goes for Sollecito as well. If there's a further issue with either or both of them making false statements to police, there should be a further criminal process related specifically to that charge, and, if found guilty, they should be sentenced to the proper punishment for that offense (fortunately for the defendants, Italian law -- unlike yeti101 -- mandates far less than forty years). But it is a legal absurdity to punish perjury with a murder conviction, or to imply that a person's alleged character, and an alleged propensity to be willing to commit a given crime demonstrated by that character, should be sufficient for conviction, in the absence of convincing proof, beyond a reasonable doubt, that they actually did commit that particular crime.

Well said and an explanation why the PGP will never discuss the police chief's comments.

I have feared that the judges could also be impacted by the false "accusation" and that without undermining it the defense will not prevail.
 
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