Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Diocletus]

I'm reading Frank's latest post to suggest that Stephanie Kercher had a fling with a Perugian cop. Am I off the mark?

 

[Paninaro]

It's known that Rudy was severely beaten as a child, possibly causing brain damage.

It's known that one of Rudy's friends wouldn't permit him to spend the night, because when awakened he would act delusional, and out of control, in a stupor, as if living in a separate reality.

It's not unlikely that Rudy saw Meredith while she was out on the town Halloween night, dressed as a vampire, blood dripping from her chin and sporting scary vampire teeth. A memorable image. (Her vampire teeth mentioned in the movie The Trial of Amanda Knox.)

A video we have of Rudy prior to the murder, shows Rudy mimicking a hideous vampire, perhaps an expression of a deep-seated fear. See: VIDEO

So.........when Meredith returned to the cottage that night, did she find Rudy sound asleep, Rudy awoke, still in a stupor, and saw Meredith as he'd seen her last, the night before---a vampire---pulled out his knife and killed her before she could kill him?

Should Rudy be in prison for 16 years... or in an insane asylum for life, with irreversible---and dangerous--- brain damage?

///

It doesn't explain the sexual assault and goes against Ockham's razor, so it's less likely.

This was in all probability a simple case of a sexual assault followed by murder as the victim made resistance. The somewhat unusual circumstances are satisfyingly covered by the fact that there are records of Guede's previously committed break ins.

 

[smkovalinksy]

It's known that Rudy was severely beaten as a child, possibly causing brain damage.

It's known that one of Rudy's friends wouldn't permit him to spend the night, because when awakened he would act delusional, and out of control, in a stupor, as if living in a separate reality.

It's not unlikely that Rudy saw Meredith while she was out on the town Halloween night, dressed as a vampire, blood dripping from her chin and sporting scary vampire teeth. A memorable image. (Her vampire teeth mentioned in the movie The Trial of Amanda Knox.)

A video we have of Rudy prior to the murder, shows Rudy mimicking a hideous vampire, perhaps an expression of a deep-seated fear. See: VIDEO

So.........when Meredith returned to the cottage that night, did she find Rudy sound asleep, Rudy awoke, still in a stupor, and saw Meredith as he'd seen her last, the night before---a vampire---pulled out his knife and killed her before she could kill him?

Should Rudy be in prison for 16 years... or in an insane asylum for life, with irreversible---and dangerous--- brain damage?

///

This is an interesting scenario. There have been cases where people committed murders while sleep walking - they appeared to have wakened, but were still in a semi-sleep state. Technically, they were not responsible (there was a case in Canada where a man killed his in-laws while sleep walking, and was acquitted, even though he had brutally stabbed them. Another case where a man dozed off at a train station, someone woke him to tell him his train was in, and he stabbed them because he thought he was being attacked in a nightmare.)

This could be an added ingredient to your scenario: That Rudy fell asleep, and half-wakened, and was sleep walking when he attacked Meredith. People with traumatic pasts, and who abuse drugs, are more prone to this disorder. Could Rudy have been speaking of himself, suddenly awakened, when he said a man appeared, and said, "Black man found, black man guilty."??

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

She is not considered convicted in Italy until the trials are over. And the evidence against her is weak.

Sorry, I keep forgetting. She's just "resting" in prison.

 

[smkovalinksy]

It doesn't explain the sexual assault and goes against Ockham's razor, so it's less likely.

This was in all probability a simple case of a sexual assault followed by murder as the victim made resistance. The somewhat unusual circumstances are satisfyingly covered by the fact that there are records of Guede's previously committed break ins.

Some of the reported cases of brutal stabbings by persons sleep walking were very intricate, violent, lengthy, and could include sexual assault. I know this is less likely via Occam's razor, but truth really can be stranger than fiction...

 

[lowriderrsa]

This is for everybody!

Hi everybody. I would just like to mention two things seeing that there seems to be two common subjects discussed here at present.

Regarding the break-in. There's photographic evidence of scuff marks on the wall. The glass on the outside IS undisturbed BUT it's laying to the side and the reason it was removed was not to allow ENTRANCE but ACCESS to the latch to open the windows. Photos from IIP.

If I recall correctly the movie and anime was viewed on a MAC, not a PC so it works slightly differrent with relation to log files. The ISP logs might also not be of much use. It really depends on the communications infrastructure of Italy.

 

[Grinder]

My conclusion on the break in has been less that I can be sure what happened, than that the prosecution isn't either, and they have no proof that Amanda and Raffaele staged it. It is just this circular reasoning -- if someone staged a break in, they must have been involved in the murder, and the reason to stage the break in is to divert attention from someone. So, since we think Amanda might have done it, it makes sense that the break in was staged, because she is the one that had a key, etc.

yes

None of that is proof that the break in was staged, and the physical evidence shows, at the very least, that the rock was thrown from the outside, not the inside as most of the staging theories claim.

for sure

So, my thought has always been that, no I don't know for sure that Rudy came in that window. But I think it is not impossible, it is similar to his previous MO, and there is no proof that the breakin was staged. Maybe he threw the rock through the window to see if anyone was home, then came in some other way (that is not my top theory, just one other option).

could have been he threw it and waited a bit and in the interim Meredith returned and he talked or forced his way in.

Also, if this window is so obviously not where a burglar would break in through, then why would Amanda and Raffaele choose it for the staging? So they choose a window that appears unlikely to people that someone could break in? Why not just leave the front door unlocked? Or break or open a different window?

Why not leave the house how it normally would be? Or just unlock the balcony doors. The biggest "surprise" is that they coincidentally used Rudy's MO - second story with a rock. I remember early on the PGP said that Rudy had probably told them about it or even more likely they had read about it in the local papers. The fact Rudy was never arrested and charged and therefore wouldn't have made the paper is just a detail. They make a big deal of people saying Rudy was burglar because he was never convicted.

To use the "staged break in" as proof of murder, it has to be way more conclusive than it is. I think that, given the available evidence combined with the other facts of the case (liklihood that Rudy was already inside when Meredith came home), I think he did climb in that window. But if he didn't, the evidence that Amanda and Raff staged it is not there.

You just don't understand. If a scenario can be made that is evidence against the kids, use it as gospel.

 

[bolint]

With Raffaele and Amanda in custody, who else besides the police could have accessed the file at this time?

No need for anyone to enter. The file could be accessed through internet.
It was connected to a peer-to-peer file-sharing network and Stardust was in the shared folder. So anyone in the world in that network who downloaded Stardust in that period could download some part of it from Raffaele's computer thereby changing the timestamp of Last Access.

I am supremely puzzled by your comment about Mignini. What does he have to do with it? I believe that the police were merely incompetent in this instance and did not realize that they were potentially losing evidence.

So you seriously thought that the police entered Raffaele's house before 02:47AM on Nov 6, while the pair were being questioned, in order to modify the time stamp of Stardust?

The most important issue with respect to a possible alibi is when was it accessed before 2:47.

Well, if they had said at the beginning that "We were watching Stardust" then it would have some relevance.
They did not say anything like that.

Stardust came up only late, when their own experts found that they had no proof of computer usage and had no timestamps to support their alibi.

So they tried to make use of those files that had been created before Nov 1, had Last Access timestamps after Nov 1 and tried to recycle them claiming "Oh, now I remember, we were watching just these films, unfortunately the timestamps have been overwritten".

That's how the Stardust myth was created.
But even with this practice they could only find this one film.

The only credible finding was the Naruto 21:26 opening.

 

[Onofarar]

I'm pretty much completely new to following this case, not having read much since before the original trial, but I recall from my reading today that even the prosecution admits activity was on Raffaele's computer at 21.10, didn't they?

Wouldn't that, along with the evidence for an apparent time of death between 21.00-21.30 be a sufficient alibi in itself?

And the defence says there was other activity as well?

Go to a blog site called "Church Discipline" the blogger there formerly posted here as CD-Host. There you will find a VERY detailed discussion of the Apple /Mac OS that should convince you how inadequate and superficial the police examination was with their Encase software.

 

[HumanityBlues]

Bolint,

Why didn't they record Amanda's interrogation?

 

[bolint]

Why didn't they record Amanda's interrogation?

They were not required to record it and I think they had not expected a collapse and confession at that time. Or they may even have recorded it.

 

[Justinian2]

Although impossible to prove, this narrative makes more sense using the available evidence than any scenario involving Knox and Sollecito. And it would explain the reason for the rage that must have been required to stab Meredith so viciously.

Interesting.

Rage isn't the reason that serial killers kill. I've read that serial killers like death and seeing people die - it excites them. Bundy (the serial killer) predicted the Green Mountain serial killer would probably go back to the bodies to have sex with the bodies.

It's difficult to logically deduce what serial killers think, as it is so foreign to our own thinking. One can't logically find reasons for actions of perverted emotion.

I think we can understand normal behavior. I have always thought Amanda's behavior was normal. Even when in grief, we don't always cry. There were moments when I laughed during the funerals of my parents. So did everybody else. It's part of the healing process. It's part of acceptance.

 

[Dougm]

Why not leave the house how it normally would be? Or just unlock the balcony doors. The biggest "surprise" is that they coincidentally used Rudy's MO - second story with a rock. I remember early on the PGP said that Rudy had probably told them about it or even more likely they had read about it in the local papers. The fact Rudy was never arrested and charged and therefore wouldn't have made the paper is just a detail. They make a big deal of people saying Rudy was burglar because he was never convicted.

A better question. If Amanda and Raffaele staged the break in because they did the murder with Rudy, staged the scene to look like Rudy's MO, then selectively cleaned the scene to leave only Rudy's prints and DNA -- why did Amanda not accuse Rudy then, instead of Patrick?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Rage isn't the reason that serial killers kill. I've read that serial killers like death and seeing people die - it excites them. Bundy (the serial killer) predicted the Green Mountain serial killer would probably go back to the bodies to have sex with the bodies.

It's difficult to logically deduce what serial killers think, as it is so foreign to our own thinking. One can't logically find reasons for actions of perverted emotion.

I don't think anyone is accusing Amanda Knox of being a serial killer, are they? As far as we know, she only killed Meredith Kercher.

I think we can understand normal behavior. I have always thought Amanda's behavior was normal. Even when in grief, we don't always cry. There were moments when I laughed during the funerals of my parents. So did everybody else. It's part of the healing process. It's part of acceptance.

Did anyone turn cartwheels? Because, as you recall, that's what started this whole thing.

 

[smkovalinksy]

Rage isn't the reason that serial killers kill. I've read that serial killers like death and seeing people die - it excites them. Bundy (the serial killer) predicted the Green Mountain serial killer would probably go back to the bodies to have sex with the bodies.

It's difficult to logically deduce what serial killers think, as it is so foreign to our own thinking. One can't logically find reasons for actions of perverted emotion.

I think we can understand normal behavior. I have always thought Amanda's behavior was normal. Even when in grief, we don't always cry. There were moments when I laughed during the funerals of my parents. So did everybody else. It's part of the healing process. It's part of acceptance.

You are entirely correct about grief and behavior: I did not cry at my husband's funeral, though his death was untimely and tragic, and I was devastated. Nothing in Knox's behavior warrants thinking she killed Kercher. But I do not view Rudy as a serial killer, and assume this was his first murder, unplanned and unexpected.

 

[Onofarar]

Probably the photo I just linked? I have ZERO doubt that when I was younger I'd be able to get through the window that way.



Is this a picture of the window in question? Looks to me like it has a very wide ledge, I wouldn't expect much, if any, glass to be knocked down the outside from that. If anything it would be getting dragged in as you drag your body in, not out.

Anyway, this conversation has certainly addressed my only major question over the crime. He clearly could have climbed in via the window in question.

To answer your question above (which I think you already know) yes that is the window in Filomena's room as seen from inside the cottage (and in poor lighting or camera exposure).

 

[Chris_Halkides]

Andrea Vogt's report on Stardust

No need for anyone to enter. The file could be accessed through internet.
It was connected to a peer-to-peer file-sharing network and Stardust was in the shared folder. So anyone in the world in that network who downloaded Stardust in that period could download some part of it from Raffaele's computer thereby changing the timestamp of Last Access.



So you seriously thought that the police entered Raffaele's house before 02:47AM on Nov 6, while the pair were being questioned, in order to modify the time stamp of Stardust?


Well, if they had said at the beginning that "We were watching Stardust" then it would have some relevance.
They did not say anything like that.

Stardust came up only late, when their own experts found that they had no proof of computer usage and had no timestamps to support their alibi.

So they tried to make use of those files that had been created before Nov 1, had Last Access timestamps after Nov 1 and tried to recycle them claiming "Oh, no I remember, we were watching just these films, unfortunately the timestamps have been overwritten".

That's how the Stardust myth was created.
But even with this practice they could only find this one film.

The only credible finding was the Naruto 21:26 opening.

(highlighting mine)
bolint,

I did not realize that the police presence in Raffaele's apartment that night was in dispute. Andrea Vogt wrote, "Specifically, a computer engineer who analyzed Sollecito's computer and Internet provider records testified that his review indicated someone navigated on Sollecito's computer while he and Knox were being questioned by police. Specifically, the computer revealed that the movie "Stardust" had been downloaded, and then a few hours later, at 1 a.m. and 2:47 a.m., someone surfed the Web twice and viewed a story about Kercher's killing on the Italian wire service news agency ANSA." Maybe someone else has an additional citation, but I don't see how the surfing was done other than by human beings interacting with the computer.

You have completely misunderstood my position. I think that they did not know what they were doing. Suppose that Raffaele said to them on the night of 5 November, "We were watching Stardust," and they went to his computer and found and played a bit of the file, not realizing that it would destroy the meta data. Without a tape of Raffaele's interrogation, this scenario is speculative, of course.

 

[Dougm]

I think we can understand normal behavior. I have always thought Amanda's behavior was normal. Even when in grief, we don't always cry. There were moments when I laughed during the funerals of my parents. So did everybody else. It's part of the healing process. It's part of acceptance.

I tend to dislike this "X person must be guilty because they did not act like I think they should act" business. People don't know how they would act, and it is not relevent as proof of anything anyway. After tragedies, people react in various ways. At worst, Amanda reacted in a way that was offensive to some, but she did not understand that at the time, and was trying to deal with the tragedy herself, and was not thinking about how it looked to others.

 

[Katody Matrass]

from http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Knox-defense-launches-new-accusations-898539.php

Specifically, a computer engineer who analyzed Sollecito's computer and Internet provider records testified that his review indicated someone navigated on Sollecito's computer while he and Knox were being questioned by police. Specifically, the computer revealed that the movie "Stardust" had been downloaded, and then a few hours later, at 1 a.m. and 2:47 a.m., someone surfed the Web twice and viewed a story about Kercher's killing on the Italian wire service news agency ANSA.
"We aren't saying who it was, but you can imagine," said Sollecito's attorney, Luca Maori during a break in the trial, noting that Sollecito left his computer at home and went into police headquarters 21:40 p.m. on November 5 for questioning, leaving the keys to his house with police. He has been in jail ever since.

Also Dempsey in her book reports that Sollecito gave the keys to the cops during his interrogation, so they can go check his computer.

ETA: oops, Chris already got it first.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

springing it on the defense

Did anyone turn cartwheels? Because, as you recall, that's what started this whole thing.

The cartwheels were not mentioned by ILE until the spring of 2009, IIRC.