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Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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Judging from results of latest informal poll I saw today,*there are indeed a lot of:
1) ignorant

2) unable to understand

3) deep denial

individuals
out there who do not share your endlessly expressed opinion that they are not guilty and acquittal is inevitable.
This irregardless of how authoritatively you argue it and how many times you redundantly repeat it.

*Guilt outnumbered innocence by over two to one in nearly 2000 respondents.
http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/2011/09/24/AOXybJ7-innocenti_sollecito_colpevoli.shtml

The poll I'd like to see would be one answered by forensics experts around world watching the crime scene tapes. Bet you wouldn't too proud of the results of that one. What a joke.
 
The poll I'd like to see would be one answered by forensics experts around world watching the crime scene tapes. Bet you wouldn't too proud of the results of that one. What a joke.

That would be great. Can we run it somewhere? :D
 
That would be great. Can we run it somewhere? :D

I'm curious if there is any independent expert in the world that doesn't have an interest in convicting Knox (i.e., civil plaintiff's experts, the prosecution's experts) who would support their sloppy work. Unless Ann Coulter knows anything about forensics.
 
Judging from results of latest informal poll I saw today, [...] Guilt outnumbered innocence by over two to one in nearly 2000 respondents.
http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/2011/09/24/AOXybJ7-innocenti_sollecito_colpevoli.shtml

This is a link to an earlier post. The link within quotes a poll that has twice the number of respondants and only 13% think Amanda is guilty.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=7616729#post7616729

Your poll is in Italian and the poll I gave is in English. Enough said. The polls prove only that Italians are bigoted. Ha, I just made a conclusion that isn't totally supported by the evidence! The polls actually mean very little.
 
Judging from results of latest informal poll I saw today,*there are indeed a lot of:
1) ignorant

2) unable to understand

3) deep denial

individuals
out there who do not share your endlessly expressed opinion that they are not guilty and acquittal is inevitable.
This irregardless of how authoritatively you argue it and how many times you redundantly repeat it.

*Guilt outnumbered innocence by over two to one in nearly 2000 respondents.
http://www.ilsecoloxix.it/p/2011/09/24/AOXybJ7-innocenti_sollecito_colpevoli.shtml


Ah yes. An online newspaper poll of people who almost by definition are readers of that newspaper, conducted after three straight court days of exclusive prosecution and civil parties argument (and the prominince given to it in that very same newspaper), and before any defence closing argument. That sounds like an excellent way to measure things objectively, don't you think?! :rolleyes:

And besides, I realise that you might not have comprehended this, but that part of my post was clearly aimed at regular pro-guilt commentators, who have no reason or excuse not to be properly up to speed with the entirely of the case. In my opinion, anyone who is fully conversant with the case and who still believes Knox and Sollecito should be found guilty of the murder is indeed either ignorant, unable to understand the case properly, or in denial. But thanks anyway for bringing up an Italian online newspaper poll that was totally irrelevant in the context of my argument. Nice work there :)
 
The poll I'd like to see would be one answered by forensics experts around world watching the crime scene tapes. Bet you wouldn't too proud of the results of that one. What a joke.


Shhhhhhh! You're supposed to be venerating the Grand Doctor Stefanoni and her band of world-class forensic specialists. They didn't put a foot wrong during the crime scene evidence collection, dontcha know?! In fact, the crime scene video could be shown around the world as an example of the perfect way to process a crime scene and collect evidence - it's that good!
 
Shhhhhhh! You're supposed to be venerating the Grand Doctor Stefanoni and her band of world-class forensic specialists. They didn't put a foot wrong during the crime scene evidence collection, dontcha know?! In fact, the crime scene video could be shown around the world as an example of the perfect way to process a crime scene and collect evidence - it's that good!

Yes, I'd like that mop gift wrapped, if you please.
 
I am not sure what to make of this. Central Scrutinizer seems to believe that RS/AK are guilty. He is a poster I respect so I suspect that he has some basis for his opinion other than that he wants to stir the pot.

Has Central Scrutinizer analyzed the time of death arguments and determined that they are not valid? I requested several times for a pro-guilt poster to talk about the "mixed blood" evidence and discuss whether it was appropriate for the prosecution to attempt to use such completely discredited evidence. Nobody that argued for guilt responded.

On a similar subject, does Central Scrutinizer have an opinion about the bloody footprint "evidence".

We only have Central Scrutinizer's statement that he apparently believes in the guilt of RS/AK. I am not sure why he would come here and make a post like that and a few other posts that offer no more insight into what his thought process was in regards to this case.

Admittedly, I have now become a person that not only believes that the almost complete lack of probative evidence that implicates AK/RS justifies a not guilty verdict, I also believe that the totality of the evidence is enough to judge that it is wildly unlikely that they are guilty. Nonetheless I hope that Central Scutinizer will respond with at least an outline of how he arrived at his conclusion. I hope that I will be open minded enough to think about it objectively.

With respect to Central Scrutinizer, I suspect that he has arrived at his conclusion by making the reasonable assumption that given the mass of evidence that was claimed by the prosecution against RS/AK that it is very unlikely that the prosecutors would be mistaken or lie about everything so that there must be at least enough evidence left over when the misrepresented evidence is discounted to prove guilt. In most cases that logic is probably right. This is not such a case. There seems to be no requirement on the prosecution that they represent evidence truthfully or that they engage in anything like a search for truth. This prosecution appears to be a classic witch hunt and I hope that Central Scrutinizer will take the time to explain why he thinks that isn't so.



Nah...he’s busy sorting socks...

This phenom is typical guilter behavior. You will never get a coherent answer about this case from them. I have doubts about certain aspects of this case ...that makes me a skeptic...this other view seems un-provably certain. Which leads to the question...wazz upp???
 
Is the use of irregardless some sort of inside joke?

Acquittal is clearly not inevitable but today moved the dial in that direction.

ToD and the prejudging by ILE brought out today was excellent. The not matching bloody outline of the knife and the randomness of its selection were great points.

I imagine Amanda's team will reinforce the prejudging by the police and the obvious leading her into giving the "truth we knew" statement. She may mention it again when she speaks, telling the court that even though she knows that Mignini will probably sue her again. She may say that they planted the Patrick account and the interpreter told her that she too had forgotten important details under stress and Amanda just needed to try harder to remember what the police "knew to be the truth".


See, I know the perils of going out on a limb, but I actually do think that acquittals are inevitable. I wasn't prepared to go that far before hearing the prosecution closing arguments (even though I was pretty certain that they wouldn't have anything we didn't already know), but it turned out that the prosecutors (and civil lawyers) had even less ammunition than anticipated.

I think that an outsider (such as I am) has enough information and access to the case to be able to make a reasoned call on what's going to happen. In some cases, it's easy to tell that the defendants are guilty long before the verdict is announced. In other cases, it's difficult to make a call one way or the other. And in other cases - such as this case - it's easy to tell that the defendants are not guilty long before the verdict is announced.

If this were a balance of probabilities case, I'd probably be prepared to predict that Knox/Sollecito would likely be found not guilty, but I wouldn't be prepared to be any more than cautious about that opinion. But in a beyond-a-reasonable-doubt case - which this is - I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that the burden of proof of guilt has not been met.

And as I said earlier, I think Hellmann is already giving indications that he's about to acquit. To me, the most clear indication is his suggestion that the verdict may be announced on Saturday. For him to say this even before one of the defence teams has given a closing argument can only lead to one inference: Hellmann and his court have now heard all that the prosecutors have, and have seen all the evidence/testimony with their own eyes, and are in no doubt that there is no proof beyond a reasonable doubt. That's why the judicial panel will need very little time to deliberate after rebuttals, and that's why Hellmann already knows this to be the case.

I therefore am prepared to stand up and say that Knox and Sollecito will definitely be acquitted (barring something truly extraordinary happening between now and the end of the week). If I'm wrong, then of course I will eat humble pie and declare myself an idiot too. But I don't think I'll be wrong. I think I'll be correct.
 
How do you say humble pie? Like Steve Martin said hamburger in a Pink Panther movie? He said something like Hummburburger.

And as I said earlier, I think Hellmann is already giving indications that he's about to acquit. To me, the most clear indication is his suggestion that the verdict may be announced on Saturday.

That is a good omen!

Maybe acquitted for time served???
 
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Cosenza report?

Great news, on Bongiorno and Maori's closing arguments that thoroughly demolished any lingering evidence remaining against AK/RS. The TOD is basically akin to an alibi, I wonder if/how the prosecution will try to rebut this. Thursday will be just used massage out any remaining doubt on the innocence of AK/RS, and hopefully remind the jury on how significant the TOD issue is.

One thing caught my eye, catching up with the twitter reports this morning:

---------------
@andreavogt
Document accidentally filed in #amandaknox appeal was Cosenza court sentence refuting a forensic analysis by Vecchiotti. Now removed.
--------------

Did anyone hear about this from non-twitter sources? I wonder if it was an innocent mistake by the court, or an "accident" by a party interested in discrediting the C&V report, perhaps as an act of desperation. It is fortunate that the jury noticed an imposter document found in the official record. It wouldn't be the first time that certain parties have tried to sneak documents into the record. (e.g. Stefanoni's negative controls).
=sd=
 
That is a good omen!

Yes, it feels like Hellmann already made up his mind and from what we've seen, it's not something the prosecution will be happy about, btu who cares?

BTW, the rebuttals, how long will they last and how do they look like?
 
Yes, it feels like Hellmann already made up his mind and from what we've seen, it's not something the prosecution will be happy about, btu who cares?

BTW, the rebuttals, how long will they last and how do they look like?

Hasn't the persecution had enough days presenting their case? They got two days for closing arguments, a third day for civil prosecutors, and now possibly one more day for rebuttals. Does the defense get to offer rebuttals to the prosecution rebuttals?

This prosecution lynch mob loves to distort and mislead. Letting them have the last word is not good.
 
Yes, it feels like Hellmann already made up his mind and from what we've seen, it's not something the prosecution will be happy about, btu who cares?

BTW, the rebuttals, how long will they last and how do they look like?


No more than about half a court day. And prosecutors cannot introduce any new arguments of their own in the rebuttals. The purpose of the rebuttals is to allow prosecutors to address (and rebut) any arguments made by the defence teams. It's a process imported from the adversarial common law model; the idea behind it is that since prosecutors have the burden of proof, they should have the opportunity to rebut the defence argument.

So the upshot is that we have already heard the entirety of the arguments for guilt from prosecutors and lawyers for the civil parties. And our Italian lawyers, our main posters and our sources close to the case all tell us one thing: their arguments are dreadful, woefully underpowered, and utterly unconvincing :D
 
Hasn't the persecution had enough days presenting their case? They got two days for closing arguments, a third day for civil prosecutors, and now possibly one more day for rebuttals. Does the defense get to offer rebuttals to the prosecution rebuttals?

This prosecution lynch mob loves to distort and mislead. Letting them have the last word is not good.


Don't worry. This case is over.
 
No more than about half a court day. And prosecutors cannot introduce any new arguments of their own in the rebuttals. The purpose of the rebuttals is to allow prosecutors to address (and rebut) any arguments made by the defence teams. It's a process imported from the adversarial common law model; the idea behind it is that since prosecutors have the burden of proof, they should have the opportunity to rebut the defence argument.

So the upshot is that we have already heard the entirety of the arguments for guilt from prosecutors and lawyers for the civil parties. And our Italian lawyers, our main posters and our sources close to the case all tell us one thing: their arguments are dreadful, woefully underpowered, and utterly unconvincing :D

Thanks, LJ. As usual, you explained everything in a simple language. I appreciate this alot!
 
Hasn't the persecution had enough days presenting their case? They got two days for closing arguments, a third day for civil prosecutors, and now possibly one more day for rebuttals. Does the defense get to offer rebuttals to the prosecution rebuttals?

This prosecution lynch mob loves to distort and mislead. Letting them have the last word is not good.
The prosecution always goes last, as in the U.S., because the burden of proof lies with them. They will do their rebuttal Friday, from the sound of it, and then Knox and Sollecito will give their statements Sat., then the verdict will be pending deliberation. I agree with you: In this case, the thought of them going last is frightening.
 
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