Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I never found Meredith's English friends very credible. For one, they didn't live in the house -- Neither Laura nor Filomena testified that Amanda and Meredith had anything other than a friendly relationship. It's also not clear if they spent any time in the house hanging out at the various get-togethers the flatmates and the boys downstairs had. If I recall correctly, it was Amanda who first introduced Meredith's boyfriend to the English girls, and this only happened after the murder.

Notably, Sophie Purton testified that Meredith felt 'guilty' that she hadn't asked Amanda to join the group for their Halloween festivities. We also know that Amanda and Meredith spent a fair amount of one-on-one time together at various events. None of this is suggestive of a bad relationship between the flatmates. To me it sounds like the English girls were living in a little expat bubble and were somewhat resentful of Meredith's diverse group of friends and acquaintances. I have a diverse group of friends myself, and sometimes get an earful from Group A about how someone from Group B is 'weird'.

To that group Amanda was the outsider and thus an easy target for gossip.
May I ask why you do not find people who were actually living in Perugia who knew each other prior to Meredith’s murder and all apparently sat in the police station awaiting initial questioning, lacking in credibility?

Raffaele didn’t live with Meredith, Amanda, Filomena or Laura, does he lack credibility in the same way?

Having lived as an expat I can assure you the connecting factor for Amanda and all those English speaking students would have been language, this would have been a contributing factor in a friendships desired or otherwise. As for Miss Purton comments one could fairly conclude that Meredith feeling “guilty” says more about Meredith as a person than any real depth of friendship.
 
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Katody Matrass and London John,

unnecessary hypothesis? I don't think so. If the Defense tries to use your "compliant until the end" hypothesis, here is how I would counteract that if I was the Prosecution or Maresca:

"Sure she may have been compliant after Rudy showed her the knife, but once he started cutting her and/ or stabbing her, reflex and instinct would have taken over."

And THEN, I would throw a wadded up piece of paper at any one of the lay-judges or Hellmann himself or pretend to throw something.

99 out of a hundred times, that person will try to block the object.

"In order to be compliant you need to be rational, but once someone starts cutting or stabbing you, you stop acting rational and that's when reflex and instinct take over. You WILL reflexively ward off the knife blows just like you reflexively tried to ward off what I threw at you."

Here is another example. Suppose I hold a gun on you and tell you to not move while two guys beat the crap out of you. You fall to the ground and they start kicking you, wouldn't you reflexively curl into ball and try to defend against the blows no matter how much the guy with the gun told you not to do it?

You DEFINITELY need to show why she doesn't have defensive wounds, NOT that Rudy could have forced her to be compliant.

Are you willing to take the chance they don't do this, especially considering the defense can't rebut the prosecution's rebuttal,

Dave


No, in regard to the knife, my hypothesis has Guede holding the knife to Meredith's throat. There are no plunging stabs involved in my scenario. I contend that Guede had Meredith on her hands and knees, with him crouched or kneeling behind her, holding his knife against her throat. At this point, Meredith was compliant. At this point, Guede starts to make it very clear that his intention is to sexually assault or rape Meredith. It's only then that she starts to resist, perhaps by flinching and shouting something like "what are you doing?" In my scenario, Guede responds to this partial resistance by inflicting the first, shallower knife wound. At this point, Meredith knows that Guede would have no scruples in committing violent acts on her, and she emits a loud scream and briefly struggles. But this is in turn met with the final, brutal knife wound to the neck, which simultaneously incapacitates and silences Meredith.

And remember, it's not the job of the defence to show that this (or anything similar) is definitively what happened. The defence teams merely need to show that the prosecutors and civil lawyers are incorrect when they argue that a lone attacker couldn't have carried out the murder/assault in the absence of defensive wounds or restraint marks. The alternative narrative that I have suggested is simply one reasonable way in which a lone assailant could have carried out the crime without Meredith showing such defensive wounds or restraint marks.

So the objective of the defence lawyers on this particular issue is to persuade the court that the absence of defensive wounds and restraint marks on Meredith's body is not conclusive of a group attack. It's consistent with it, perhaps, but it's also demonstrably consistent with a lone-assailant attack. that's the important point.
 
as for motive as far as I know it is not a legal requirement in Italy, UK or America for example so why do believe people tend to mention the lack of motive as though it is a legal requirement in any of the aforementioned countries?


There are such things as motiveless killings, but establishing a motive is a helluva good point if you're trying to convict someone. There's absolutely no known motive here at all. There's no evidence at all of this "crazed sex game gone wrong". The idea that Amanda took up a carving knife and headed home to kill Meredith because Meredith was a bit miffed with her over the usual sort of frictions you get in shared accommodation, is frankly risible. The other idea that she just wanted to experience the thrill of killing - oh, give me a break.

Why did anyone ever even begin to imagine that Amanda Knox might be the person to look at in connection with Meredith's murder? That's the question people should begin by asking. If in fact suspicious forensic evidence had emerged from the crime scene, then of course it would have been legitimate to take a very careful look at her. But there was no such evidence. Leaping to the conclusion that Amanda was the murderer before any forensic evidence had been processed is so off-the-wall that it should be a red light to anyone examining the affair.

Has nobody questioned how spookily lucky these investigators were? One might almost say psychic.

They pounce on Amanda as the murderer within a very short time, on the grounds that she wiggled her hips or something. Oh yes and she was eating pizza with her boyfriend. After that, everything that was found about her was seen through a prism of assumed guilt. I keep reading a string of very ordinary reactions from her being painted as somehow sinister indications of guilt. She knew details about the crime she shouldn't have known (but these could easily have been guessed at). She was wrong about some details of the crime, which shows she was very calculating and pretending not to know (gimme a break). She was too calm. She cried. She swore at another girl who hoped Meredith hadn't suffered (I can easily see that as a normal reaction).

But despite this extremely unpromising start, hey, they were right! Amanda was the murderer all along. Because - apparently, only because of a knife they took from Raffaele's kitchen. There was nothing in the house to incriminate her.

Knife. Positively psychic. They went to Raffaele's flat and selected one cooking knife from the drawer. Come on! The guy collected knives! Why would anyone imagine a cooking knife would have been used? Especially not one that didn't match the wounds or the bloody imprint. And there were cooking knives in the cottage too. Why not test one of these? But someone magically chose that knife to test, by "investigator instinct", and hey what do you know, it was the murder weapon.

But what about Raffaele, the collateral damage? Not a trace of him in the house either (until someone brutally murdered common sense by declaring that he could be identified through that splodge of a footprint). So they go back to the cottage and hunt for the bra clasp. And there it is! They make a big performance to camera of finding it, obviously it is going to be such an important clue.... Er, how did they know? Could they see Raffaele's y-haplotype, that needed such great amplification of the DNA before it could be seen?

It's almost as if these police say, this is so - and someone makes it so.

Rolfe.
 
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Dave,

Meredith has several stab wounds on her hands. I would characterize these as defensive.


Yes. The autopsy report as quoted in the Massei Report says the following:

On the hands were small wounds showing a very slight defensive response.
(Massei, p112, English trans)


This is totally consistent with Meredith perhaps trying to push a stationary knife away from her neck. It's clearly not consistent with the type of long, slashing/stabbing defensive wounds that one would have if one were trying to fend off stabs involving a wide sweep of the assailant's arm. If the assailant comes at the victim brandishing the knife and attempting to "punch-stab" the victim, it's very common to see severe defensive cut injuries on the hands and forearms of the victim as they try to stop or deflect the blows from reaching the torso.

My theory is that when Meredith's first resistance started (possibly when she realised Guede was about to sexually assault her), Guede inflicted the first, shallow neck wound as a "warning sign, and then replaced his knife at Meredith's neck. I think that after this first wound, Meredith may have become aggressively resistant, and at this point she may have reached for the knife at her neck in an attempt to move it away. It may therefore have been at this point that she got the small wounds to her hands. IN any event, I think she failed to move the knife away from her neck, and her resistance (and probably loud scream) resulted in Guede inflicting the final fatal neck wound.
 
Laughable, contemptible figure. Which is why I've begun to employ my Burgermeister/Meisterburger variations on his title. :)

Incidentally, after the chop job Salem performed on my posts this morning on websleuths, I'm done there. That place must be run by a convention of Southern Baptists.

I have found that there is an "art" to posting there but don't take it personally you should see some of my butchered posts :)
 
May I ask why you do not find people who were actually living in Perugia who knew each other prior to Meredith’s murder and all apparently sat in the police station awaiting initial questioning, lacking in credibility?

Raffaele didn’t live with Meredith, Amanda, Filomena or Laura, does he lack credibility in the same way?

Having lived as an expat I can assure you the connecting factor for Amanda and all those English speaking students would have been language, this would have been a contributing factor in a friendships desired or otherwise. As for Miss Purton comments one could fairly conclude that Meredith feeling “guilty” says more about Meredith as a person than any real depth of friendship.


I don't find them particularly lacking in credibility. I find their opinions irrelevant.

The minor frictions they describe are commonplace, and if anything suggest that Meredith found Amanda slightly annoying, not the other way round. They say nothing at all about Amanda. Minor frictions between friends or roommates are so common as to be almost obligatory. If they were a plausible reason for murder, half the females of the human race would be dead before they were thirty. Nothing they say points in the slightest to Amanda having homicidal tendencies.

It's entirely possible that Meredith was on perfectly friendly terms with Amanda, while at the same time finding her slightly irritating as a housemate, and bitched a bit about her to friends who weren't part of the cottage dynamic and so were hardly in a position to judge the nuances.

The rest of it is simply standard guilter talking points, which doesn't surprise me coming from people inside the Kercher camp.

Rolfe.
 
Even though many of us are angry and startled at the nature of the prosecution's arguments, they have done a very poor job, especially today. It's a pity the defence lawyers only have 1 day each, they'd need a week to demonstrate just how absurd the prosecution's arguments are. Still, the prosecution should have concentrated on what they felt was their best evidence, because a judge like Hellmann is not going to be impressed by this speculative character assassination, IMO. The fact that they resorted to character assassination demonstrates that they weren't confident with the strength of their evidence. I feel a lot better about this case than a few days ago.

Your right. They had to resort to character assassination as the evidence does not support a guilty verdict. The defense must now counter it strongly. I will hope that the consultants available to them help them
 
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Katody Matrass and London John,

unnecessary hypothesis? I don't think so. If the Defense tries to use your "compliant until the end" hypothesis, here is how I would counteract that if I was the Prosecution or Maresca:

"Sure she may have been compliant after Rudy showed her the knife, but once he started cutting her and/ or stabbing her, reflex and instinct would have taken over."

And THEN, I would throw a wadded up piece of paper at any one of the lay-judges or Hellmann himself or pretend to throw something.

99 out of a hundred times, that person will try to block the object.

"In order to be compliant you need to be rational, but once someone starts cutting or stabbing you, you stop acting rational and that's when reflex and instinct take over. You WILL reflexively ward off the knife blows just like you reflexively tried to ward off what I threw at you."

Here is another example. Suppose I hold a gun on you and tell you to not move while two guys beat the crap out of you. You fall to the ground and they start kicking you, wouldn't you reflexively curl into ball and try to defend against the blows no matter how much the guy with the gun told you not to do it?

You DEFINITELY need to show why she doesn't have defensive wounds, NOT that Rudy could have forced her to be compliant.

Are you willing to take the chance they don't do this, especially considering the defense can't rebut the prosecution's rebuttal,

Dave

I simply don't expect Meredith to have defensive slashes on her hands or forearms like she got into a knife fight in a dark alley, because the situation was different. When you see someone trying to stab you, you will block it, but she most probably allowed Guede to put a knife at her throat and immobilise her arms (maybe with the sweatshirt). Simple as that.
She wasn't expecting the stabbing and her hands were either restrained or grabbing Guede's hand, which was on her mouth. He plunged the knife suddenly. The slight cuts on her hands are consistent with trying to stop such thrusting, not slashing motion, if anything.

Defence will certainly have Dr. Lalli's and their experts detailed opinions to support the single attacker scenario.
 
I don't find them particularly lacking in credibility. I find their opinions irrelevant.

The minor frictions they describe are commonplace, and if anything suggest that Meredith found Amanda slightly annoying, not the other way round. They say nothing at all about Amanda. Minor frictions between friends or roommates are so common as to be almost obligatory. If they were a plausible reason for murder, half the females of the human race would be dead before they were thirty. Nothing they say points in the slightest to Amanda having homicidal tendencies.

It's entirely possible that Meredith was on perfectly friendly terms with Amanda, while at the same time finding her slightly irritating as a housemate, and bitched a bit about her to friends who weren't part of the cottage dynamic and so were hardly in a position to judge the nuances.

The rest of it is simply standard guilter talking points, which doesn't surprise me coming from people inside the Kercher camp.

Rolfe.
Rolfe

I believe I responded incorrectly to you I thought I had directed my response to Charlatan, I note your predictable comments also. ;)
 
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I simply don't expect Meredith to have defensive slashes on her hands or forearms like she got into a knife fight in a dark alley, because the situation was different. When you see someone trying to stab you, you will block it, but she most probably allowed Guede to put a knife at her throat and immobilise her arms (maybe with the sweatshirt). Simple as that.
She wasn't expecting the stabbing and her hands were either restrained or grabbing Guede's hand, which was on her mouth. He plunged the knife suddenly. The slight cuts on her hands are consistent with trying to stop such thrusting, not slashing motion, if anything.

Defence will certainly have Dr. Lalli's and their experts detailed opinions to support the single attacker scenario.


I think it's obviously impossible to reconstruct exactly what happened. But I can certainly tell you that any statement that the pattern of injuries is incompatible with a single attacker is nothing more than wild speculation. They're making it up as they go along. You can imagine all sorts of scenarios, but unless you were a fly on the wall you're whistling in the dark. And the most likely scenario is that the one you think most likely will turn out to be nothing like what actually happened if you could get in the TARDIS and go back and find out.

Rolfe.
 
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Not sure if this article has already been discussed Nonetheless it is the views of Miss Hayward who knew Meredith maybe 3 or 4 weeks longer than Amanda did. Of course some may conclude “well she would say this or that” for this reason and that reason, but unlike most of us she was actually there.

I would be asking why she has chosen now to say what she has. Does she need money? What about the attention?

To me it seems funky someone would do this 4 years after the fact thus I take anything said with a grain of salt
 
I believe I responded incorrectly to you I thought I had directed my response to Charlatan, I note your predictable comments also. ;)


It's an open forum, and anyone can comment on any post they choose.

I don't see why "predictable" is being used in this dismissive manner. What I said was predictable inasmuch as it was a statement of the bleedin' obvious.

There is nothing at all in the accounts of any of the young women on the periphery of the case that offers even the slightest hint that Amanda Knox hid the soul of a homicidal maniac behind her vibrator and condoms.

Rolfe.
 
May I ask why you do not find people who were actually living in Perugia who knew each other prior to Meredith’s murder and all apparently sat in the police station awaiting initial questioning, lacking in credibility?

Raffaele didn’t live with Meredith, Amanda, Filomena or Laura, does he lack credibility in the same way?

Having lived as an expat I can assure you the connecting factor for Amanda and all those English speaking students would have been language, this would have been a contributing factor in a friendships desired or otherwise. As for Miss Purton comments one could fairly conclude that Meredith feeling “guilty” says more about Meredith as a person than any real depth of friendship.

What part of my post was unclear? The girls didn't live in the house (nor is it clear they spent much if any time at the house) yet made a bunch of claims about what occurred inside the house. The two other residents of the house did not make such claims. I find the residents more credible. Why are you dragging Raffaele into it?

Having studied abroad I find it absurd that you dismiss the critical role nationality and school affiliation play in determining social groups. A kid from China may speak perfect English but this doesn't mean we'll necessarily have much to talk about.

Lastly, we're not talking about depth of friendship. It's not as if any of these people were lifelong friends. The question is whether there was animosity between Meredith and Amanda. I find it improbable that anyone feels guilty about not spending time with someone they dislike.
 
This picture to me, is like the juxtaposition of two opposing forces. I actually see some kind of synchronicity to their being caught like this, facing opposite directions :

[qimg]http://www1.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Amanda+Knox+Amanda+Knox+Awaits+Murder+Verdict+LflZr21l28Pl.jpg[/qimg]

Extraordinary photo, and surely a Rorschach test for innocenti vs. guilters.

Those in their right mind see the way the despicable bastard on the left has broken the spirit of the young girl on the right, all in service of his warped spiritual and psychic life (inclusive of religion, culture, country vs. city, Freudian stuff, you name it...). The guilter, on the other hand, will look at the same photo and presumably see a righteous man steeling himself in the conquering of evil itself. Problem is, such simplistic binaries are precious seldom the stuff of real life.

This has been such an unbelievable pageant of actual human characters, cast in service of an incredible human tragedy.
 
I have found that there is an "art" to posting there but don't take it personally you should see some of my butchered posts :)

Appreciate it, but I won't be wasting any more of my time or energy over there. Especially in these waning days, I'm obviously distracted by this case; but part of me also realizes that, as a writer, every word I devote to this topic is subtracted from work for which I am being paid. To have sincere contributions lacerated until they are partly unrecognizable is a bridge too far.
 
It's an open forum, and anyone can comment on any post they choose.

I don't see why "predictable" is being used in this dismissive manner. What I said was predictable inasmuch as it was a statement of the bleedin' obvious.

There is nothing at all in the accounts of any of the young women on the periphery of the case that offers even the slightest hint that Amanda Knox hid the soul of a homicidal maniac behind her vibrator and condoms.

Rolfe.
Rolfe
It's an open forum, and anyone can comment on any post they choose.

I don't see why "predictable" is being used in this dismissive manner. What I said was predictable inasmuch as it was a statement of the bleedin' obvious.
Oh I see I thought I had made a mistake, by all means you respond as you see fit; was I being dismissive?

There is nothing at all in the accounts of any of the young women on the periphery of the case that offers even the slightest hint that Amanda Knox hid the soul of a homicidal maniac behind her vibrator and condoms.

That may well be so. However, I have always found it interesting the students waiting in the police station from different countries of similar ages who all knew each other for a similar length of time found Raffaele and Amanda’s behaviour different in the context of her housemate (friend) being brutally murdered, but I would say that wouldn’t I?

I posted the Telegraph article just to see what the response would be, not as a statement either way.

Still unlike some folks here I want to hear the defences closing arguments and rebuttals, I guess I am in a camp of on my own, billy no mates!
 
It's almost as if these police say, this is so - and someone makes it so.

Before the bra clasp and the kitchen knife, there were the bloody shoe prints found near the victim. The prosecution expert matched one to Amanda, claiming it was a print from a women's shoe in her size. Another print was matched to Raffaele's Adidas. Funny thing is that the number of rings in the sole pattern didn't match the number of rings on Raffaele's shoe. And oddly, the print attributed to Amanda had the same pattern.

An empty shoe box found in Rudy's closet provided the answer. The defense pointed out that the Nike Outbreak 2 shoes that came in that box were an exact match for the shoe prints found near the victim. :boggled:

Was this error just confirmation bias on the part of the shoe expert, or was it something worse?
 
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