Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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I'm a veterinary pathologist with training and experience in forensic pathology. I have often appeared in court as an expert witness in relation to my pathology findings, including having to address time of death.

Once upon a time, a guilter approached me here, by PM I think. I think it was Stilicho, actually, though as I said it was a while ago. He implored me to take a look at the medical evidence in the Kercher murder case, because I was such a well-respected forum poster. At the time I had other, much bigger, fish to fry, and said so. I had no idea even of the nature of the medical evidence (all I'd read about was an allegedly staged break-in).

The guilter (Stilicho?) then appeared in a thread, saying that when someone like me was refusing to touch the evidence, "something was terribly wrong". I still have little idea what he meant by this. That I was part of some cover-up? I replied again that I didn't have time to get involved in the Kercher case as the Lockerbie case was so time-consuming.

It was some considerable time later that I happened to read the details of the gastrointestinal contents findings at the post mortem. I was completely gobsmacked. It's a complete slam-dunk that Meredith died shortly after nine, on that evidence. It also seems to stand up to scrutiny, in that the PM was videoed and the pathologist can be seen to take the correct precautions to prevent artefacts.

That's why I came into this thread, to say that. It's completely beyond reasonable doubt.

Now Stilicho mocks me on PMF as a cow-doctor, and makes jokes about clipping dogs' toenails and suchlike. "Veterinarian" has become synonymous with ignoramus. PMF posters in general refer to this whole thing as a "google" diagnosis, although I personally haven't had to google a thing in this respect, and even if anyone has, the internet is a good source of medical information if one is intelligently selective with the references consulted.


You're correct in your recollection that it was Stilicho. He has completely showed his true colours in his subsequent dismissal of you, your views, your experience and your qualifications, once you turned out to unequivocally validate the ToD issues being argued by some of us here. His arguments on this issue are most definitely not sceptical (or rational) by any reasonable definition of the term...



Well, exactly. The guilters think the defence aren't going to address this aspect, because no additional evidence was admitted to the Hellman court. They think the ridiculous 11.40 ToD will therefore stand.

This is nonsense as far as I can see. No new evidence is needed, because the existing evidence, properly interpreted, says all that needs to be said. I would expect the defence to make a strong case for an early ToD later this month.

Rolfe.


You're correct. Many (most?) pro-guilt commentators are continually confusing and conflating two issues: 1) the additional evidence/testimony allowed by Hellmann in the appeal trial; and 2) the argument phase of the appeal trial - which not only hasn't even started yet, but will also be based upon all the evidence/testimony from both the Massei and Hellmann courts.

And, as you so rightly say, there's actually enough evidence and testimony on the record from the Massei trial to make a highly coherent and persuasive argument for a ToD well before 10pm (and most likely before 9.30pm). Heck, even the expert witness testimony from all parties regarding the autopsy stomach/intestinal contents - even though most of the experts weren't as well-informed on this precise subject as they might have been - points indisputably to a ToD before 10.30pm. And in fact since the expert pathologists actually contradict each other, I think the defence will get some mileage out of preferring the testimony of the police's own pathologist who perfomed the PM on Meredith, who said that food starts to leave the stomach within 2-3 hours of the start of the meal. this of course would put the ToD between 9pm and 9.30pm.

And the medical evidence/testimony is amply supported by other areas of evidence/testimony from Massei's court: the fact that Meredith never attempted to call her mother back; the fact that she was wearing her outside clothes and shoes when attacked; the apparent fact that she had not yet looked at the textbook that she had specifically borrowed to read that evening and which she'd promised to return the following morning; the clothes left in the washing machine; and the mysterious phone activity on her UK phone at around 10pm, which is entirely inconsistent with Meredith "messing around" on her own phone - as per Massei's ludicrous ruling on the subject (not to mention the fact that if Meredith were indeed "messing around" on her mobile phone an hour after she returned to the cottage, why on Earth wouldn't she have called her mother from the same phone at some time in that preceding hour?).

In addition, we also now have the evidence from Guede's Skype call, in which he attempts to weave a narrative of innocence but in which he can reasonably be expected certain key elements to have been observed by witnesses outside the cottage. The most important of these elements is Meredith's scream. Guede is very careful to place this scream at "9.20-9.30 or so", and is also then careful to tie this into his visit to the bathroom. It therefore seems entirely reasonable to suggest that Meredith did indeed scream at around this time, and that Guede was concerned that someone outside the cottage might have heard the scream and noted the timing (he even goes so far as to say in the Skype call that the scream "was loud enough to be heard from the street"). I therefore believe that Guede's timing of the scream can be construed as accurate, and it adds yet further weight to a pre-9.30 ToD.
 
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Well, the fat lady is singing. Peggy Ganong now allowing that Knox may walk.

Ominously, however, we now see her falling back to the apparent threat that "when the guilty go free, some form of punishment ensues."


It's quite eye-opening to observe some of the nastiest and most vindictive of the idiots trying - in apparent seriousness - to interpret fears for Knox's safety/wellbeing if/when she returns to Seattle after acquittal as being fears of the "paunch Knoxophile brigade" wanting to "pounce" on her. Judging by some of the vitriol and threat aimed at Knox on .org and .net, I imagine that the King Country Sheriffs' Department might be anticipating rounding up a fair few of these pro-guilt oddballs in the months following Knox's return to Seattle.

When Knox is acquitted, it will be for the right reasons: there is quite evidently nowhere near enough evidence to convict her of the murder of Meredith Kercher (and the same applies to Sollecito). While this in itself is enough to consider her innocent of the crime, there is in fact so little incriminating evidence that it's actually highly likely that neither she nor Sollecito had anything whatsoever to do with the crime. This is not a comparator case to those of Casey Anthony (where the prosecutors clearly overcharged: Anthony would almost certainly have been convicted on more appropriate lesser charges) or OJ Simpson (where external race/political issues coupled with very poor prosecutors resulted in a miscarriage of justice in Simpson's acquittal). Knox will be free and with an unblemished reputation. And I look forward to anyone publicly attempting to smear Knox post-acquittal being met with appropriate legal action (and criminal action if they are stupid/unpleasant enough to threaten Knox or her family). And by the way, I believe that Ganong is either lying or grossly embellishing in her accounts of "stalking at funerals".

PS: Anyone who deliberately writes a US-based English-language blog using a French template (dates annotated as "lundi 12 septembre 2011" etc) clearly has some personal issues about the need to scream to the world: "Look everyone! I'm cosmopolitan! I Speak French! I've lived in Europe! Aren't I clever and intellectual!!" Add in the continual use of incongruous French "bon mots" (irony intended...) across all her writings, and there's enough here to keep a psychiatrist busy for quite some time.

PPS: I keep noticing veiled little references to the film "The Big Lebowski" in Ganong's writings (the latest one being the use of the phrase "in the parlance of our times" in her latest blog post). And there's a pro-guilt character who's popped up all over the internet - often using very unpleasant and aggressive methods - who has been using various monikers linked to the same movie ("Walther Sobchak", "Treehorn", "Jackie" etc). I wonder if there's a connection? Just sayin'.......
 
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http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?style=1&f=1&t=402&start=4500#p98331

An obviously spoof article by a guilter, and H9 has fallen for it hook, line, sinker and rowboat. These guys aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.... ;)

Rolfe.

Heh. Search for 'Former FOA' at .org, that one was brilliant! So was the reactions of the regulars, even though one of the semi-actives nailed it immediately.

It wasn't me either, but I was a fan. I've suspicions who it might have been and it would be nice for them to step forward and accept their due acclaim, there might be surprise in some quarters...
 
I was thinking about this discussion (a few pages back) regarding Amanda's retraction statement. During the discussion Stuttit became quite frustrated because he felt his arguments were being misunderstood due to biased interpretations by the readers. I can empathize but I also find it ironic. Over the last few years Raffaele's and Amanda's every utterance or communication including the one being discussed has been analyzed and nuanced to death. Most often by people trying to find guilt in every word of every phrase of every sentence. Imagine how frustrated they must get.

Part of the shuttlt's frustration stemmed from the wording of this claim:

"Nobody but a lunatic would demand Knox assert that she KNEW FOR A FACT Patrick was innocent while claiming to know nothing about the crime."


I thought that what shuttlt meant was:

"Nobody but a lunatic would demand Knox assert that she KNEW FOR A FACT Patrick was innocent while also knowing nothing about the crime."

After some convesation, I realized that what shuttlt intended to say was this:

"Nobody but a lunatic would demand Knox assert that she KNEW FOR A FACT Patrick was innocent if they also believed she knew nothing about the crime."

In other words, the word, "claiming" was supposed to refer to the lunatic, not to Amanda.

Incidentally, several of the posts made in good faith for that discussion have been removed, including ones by me, shuttlt and RoseM.
 
Heh. Search for 'Former FOA' at .org, that one was brilliant! So was the reactions of the regulars, even though one of the semi-actives nailed it immediately.

It wasn't me either, but I was a fan. I've suspicions who it might have been and it would be nice for them to step forward and accept their due acclaim, there might be surprise in some quarters...
Ha, that one was hilarious. I'd like to know who it was as well (I also have suspicions, but I'm probably wrong!). This was my favourite, in response to all the talk of the experts being academic ivory tower researchers rather than 'on the ground' scientists like Stefanoni:
Former FOA said:
Science is no more than elaborate guesswork anyway. Isaac Newton was all very well with his fancy theory of gravity, but what did he really know about the practical reality of apples falling towards the ground? Nothing, I bet, compared to an experienced apple picker.
 
http://perugiamurderfile.org/viewtopic.php?style=1&f=1&t=402&start=4500#p98331

An obviously spoof article by a guilter, and H9 has fallen for it hook, line, sinker and rowboat. These guys aren't the sharpest knives in the drawer.... ;)

Rolfe.


Yes, the reaction speaks for itself really. What makes it all the sadder is that the article itself isn't exactly the most witty or incisive piece of satire ever written either: clearly subtlety and nuance are not words that feature highly in that writer's style vocabulary. I wonder if (s)he tried to submit material for The Onion which was turned down?

I'm genuinely interested in the reactions and commentaries of three groups of people after Knox (and Sollecito) is acquitted in Hellmann's court: the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence factions of the US media; the neutral factions of the US media, and the assembled pro-guilt commentators (both in the media and on blogs/forums). I hope that the pro-acquittal/pro-innocence US media will not use the acquittal as an opportunity to engage in jingoistic or retribution-oriented articles/broadcasts, and that they will present a proper analysis of how and why Knox was correctly acquitted. I also hope that the neutral US media (and the UK media for that matter) will not choose to present the acquittals as "Knox and Sollecito got off on a technicality" or something similar: the truth will be that they were acquitted because there is not (and never was) anywhere near enough evidence to even tie them to the crime, let alone convict them beyond all reasonable doubt. And I hope that the pro-guilt commentators choose to pack up their tents and go home; hopefully in time they will realise that they were completely wrong about this case, and they will come to terms with that truth. Justice for Meredith Kercher will have been served by Guede being convicted and going to prison (although probably not for as long as he should have gone to prison), and by two people who almost certainly had nothing to do with Meredith's murder going free.
 
Heh. Search for 'Former FOA' at .org, that one was brilliant! So was the reactions of the regulars, even though one of the semi-actives nailed it immediately.

It wasn't me either, but I was a fan. I've suspicions who it might have been and it would be nice for them to step forward and accept their due acclaim, there might be surprise in some quarters...


Ugh, I can't. I'm not a member.

Rolfe.
 
Ha, that one was hilarious. I'd like to know who it was as well (I also have suspicions, but I'm probably wrong!). This was my favourite, in response to all the talk of the experts being academic ivory tower researchers rather than 'on the ground' scientists like Stefanoni:


Another fave of mine was this:

So she (Ms Stefanoni) didn't count a few peaks. So what? Her lab, her rules. The experts should realise that.


Note to "The Seattle Salmon": that is decent satire :D
 
That's extremely interesting. It's a pity the comments are a train wreck.

I hadn't quite realised that Rudy's adoptive family were quite so anonymous. Do we have a name? Were they active at the time of his trial? Even if they had washed their hands of him, it seems odd that they would have remained in total obscurity - it's the sort of human interest story (how we gave that boy every chance but he turned bad anyway) that newspapers love and would pay for.

I also hadn't realised that they had all that incontrovertible evidence of someone who was quite clearly not Knox, Sollecito or Lumumba, even before the notorious "interview". Is that claim correct?

There seems to be confusion about when they identified this person as Rudy Guede. Was it only when Rudy's friend contacted the police with his suspicions? I have read in several places that the police were able to match the bloody palm-print to a reference print of Rudy's they had from immigration documents, even before the friend contacted them. It would be interesting to know where this comes in on the timeline.

That article seems to be implying that the entire "railroad job from hell" wasn't just random, but was designed to cover-up and minimise Rudy's part in the crime. Some have suggested that this was done because he was a police informer. This article seems to be suggesting that the real reason was that Rudy's adoptive family is extremely rich and influential.

Now that is certainly a conspiracy theory. Does it stand up, though? What is known about this rather mysterious family?

Rolfe.

This guy is nuts. The family is not mysterious at all...I’m just too lazy to look it up but I am certain by now someone has already posted it...

They took in Rudy because he was a great BB player...they threw him out because he was a lazy liar. Its all public knowledge. And has been from early on.

The police had no idea of a fourth person as this story claims...its all just so much BS...
There are also rumors of a "black mans " hair (whatever that is) found at the scene. Again nothing in the records.

I still have never seen absolute proof that the police knew the name RG was associated to this case until his friend went to the station and reported him. Its likely that the fingerprint story is bogus because I doubt you could get a good print from blood on a pillow case. Just like you don’t get a good print from a bloody foot on a bath mat.

Rudys friend turned him in to police...then they had him set up a Skype call and recorded it. The police were not looking anymore...there was never a story about a fourth man until after Rudys friend made it public.
 
This guy is nuts. The family is not mysterious at all...I’m just too lazy to look it up but I am certain by now someone has already posted it...

They took in Rudy because he was a great BB player...they threw him out because he was a lazy liar. Its all public knowledge. And has been from early on.

The police had no idea of a fourth person as this story claims...its all just so much BS...
There are also rumors of a "black mans " hair (whatever that is) found at the scene. Again nothing in the records.

I still have never seen absolute proof that the police knew the name RG was associated to this case until his friend went to the station and reported him. Its likely that the fingerprint story is bogus because I doubt you could get a good print from blood on a pillow case. Just like you don’t get a good print from a bloody foot on a bath mat.

Rudys friend turned him in to police...then they had him set up a Skype call and recorded it. The police were not looking anymore...there was never a story about a fourth man until after Rudys friend made it public.


Yeah, somebody else pointed most of that out. It was an intriguing idea, but obviously away with the fairies.

Rolfe.
 
The night of the murder, he signed this statement at the police station that said at the night of the murder Amanda left his flat from 9 pm to 1am, when they had this statement they went to Amanda's interrogation room and told her that Raffaele stopped covering her …

I think you are not correct about this.
The police asked RS how he could be sure Amanda was at his flat all night if he was sleeping. He replied (sarcastically I would bet) that there was no way for him to know what Amanda did while he was sleeping. In retrospect I bet he wished he would have answered....I am a very light sleeper and so I would have been awoken by any movement. I was not! This is the Non covering of the alibi mentioned by the police.

Where in the court records is this story about the 9 PM to 1 AM separation? Or is this something you are quoting from some book?
 
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Rudys friend turned him in to police...then they had him set up a Skype call and recorded it. The police were not looking anymore...there was never a story about a fourth man until after Rudys friend made it public.
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Randy,

are you saying this quote from "Murder in Italy" (p. 191) is wrong:
"Two days after police chief Arturo De Felice declared caso chiuso, the Kercher murder case broke wide open. Detectives uncovered a new suspect, dubbed the 'fourth man.' They unmasked him though old-fashioned police work, not CSI forensics or psychoanalysis from Edgardo Giobbi's Rome based SCO. They simply compared the bloody hand print found on Meredith's pillowcase to the prints provided by the three suspects. None of them matched.

"The Italian press placed the 'fourth man' story way down in the coverage, where few readers noticed it. Once reporters got a name, though, once they knew who'd laid that bloody hand on Meredith's pillow, then their coverage would explode."

and this quote also (ibid. p. 219):
"On November 18, 2007, Italian police announced a world-wide manhunt for 'the fourth man.' They described him as a North African (Arab) involved in the drug trade. Even though the description didn't quite fit Rudy, Gabrielle paid a visit to the Flying Squad office in Perugia and told the officers about his missing friend."

I still haven't received the answer to my question, how did they know the hand print was made by a "man" and had a description (albeit sketchy description) of him before Rudy's friend went to tell them his suspicions? Even if the DNA profile found mixed with the bloody hand print reads a male, this does not mean the fingerprints were made by the same person that left the DNA. Am I missing something here?

Dave
 
That's a good point about the hand print. It's very hard to see how a pillow could provide a clear enough print to identify a subject from reference files. Very hard. Of course, the bit quoted above only says the print didn't match any of the three suspects, which is more plausible.

It's still possible they identified Rudy from an on-file fingerprint though, but it would be nice to know where they lifted the suspect fingerprint from. On the other hand, is it possible they had no freaking idea there was anyone else involved until Rudy's friend contacted them? And that the bit about the print was cover-up for them having missed the obvious first time round?

Rolfe.
 
I was thinking about this discussion (a few pages back) regarding Amanda's retraction statement. During the discussion Stuttit became quite frustrated because he felt his arguments were being misunderstood due to biased interpretations by the readers. I can empathize but I also find it ironic. Over the last few years Raffaele's and Amanda's every utterance or communication including the one being discussed has been analyzed and nuanced to death. Most often by people trying to find guilt in every word of every phrase of every sentence. Imagine how frustrated they must get.

Shuttits whole argument is taken from an example given by Bill Clinton.

I suppose it depends on what "it" means.

Rather like a dog chasing his tail...IMO.

And never any talk of the meeting of PL and AK on the morning of the 5th outside her school. For all AK knows for certain PL could still be involved as an accomplice. Who knows if he was friends with Rudy? He hung out in the same places (school steps) as Rudy the drug dealer did. Who knows...maybe PL is Rudys good friend or even maybe "business" partner. I don’t think AK ever had anything to apologize for...the police? That’s another story.
 
That's a good point about the hand print. It's very hard to see how a pillow could provide a clear enough print to identify a subject from reference files. Very hard. Of course, the bit quoted above only says the print didn't match any of the three suspects, which is more plausible.

It's still possible they identified Rudy from an on-file fingerprint though, but it would be nice to know where they lifted the suspect fingerprint from. On the other hand, is it possible they had no freaking idea there was anyone else involved until Rudy's friend contacted them? And that the bit about the print was cover-up for them having missed the obvious first time round?

Rolfe.
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Rolfe,

so all those posters here who say they have good evidence against Rudy even if the C&V report is used to eliminate his DNA evidence, because the hand-print can be linked to him, are wrong? How can it be linked? The same way the bath mat can be linked to Raffaele? Without swirls and arches to compare, I don't see how. Educate me on this. I really am curious and not ridiculing you (or anyone else) in any way.

As I'm sure you're aware, they can now use vaporized superglue to bring out latents from surfaces that were at one time impossible to get prints from,

Dave
 
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Rolfe,

so all those posters here who say they have good evidence against Rudy even if the C&V report is used to eliminate his DNA evidence, because the hand-print can be linked to him, are wrong? How can it be linked? The same way the bath mat can be linked to Raffaele? Without swirls and arches to compare, I don't see how. Educate me on this. I really am curious and not ridiculing you (or anyone else) in any way.

As I'm sure you're aware, they can now use vaporized superglue to bring out latents from surfaces that were at one time impossible to get prints from,

Dave


It's actually perfectly possible to lift a latent print from a cotton pillowcase cover using standard tape techniques. Most cotton pillowcases are around 120-180 thread count - meaning that there are 120-180 separate fine threads both vertically and horizontally per square inch of the fabric. If you look at the cotton pillowcases in your house, you'll probably see that their surface is a lot smoother and flatter than you might have imagined.

It's therefore entirely reasonable to assume that a readable hand print was lifted from Meredith's pillowcase. Even fine ridge detail on fingerprints would very likely be readable, but the palm characteristics of creases and lines would most definitely be readable.

The surface of a fine cotton pillowcase is in stark contrast to the bath mat on which the blood/water partial print was made. The bath mat was made from cotton (or a cotton blend) that was vertically-tufted to a height of around 2-3cm in places. Each tuft would have been capable of independent lateral movement of at least a couple of cm - a vital issue when considering a foot placement onto the mat. What's more, the pile was not of a consistent height: there was a relief pattern in the mat, resulting in differing heights of pile in different areas of the footfall. In short, there is absolutely no way whatsoever that the partial print on the mat can be either excluded as Guede's or positively identified as Sollecito's. There are simply too many huge variables. The fact that Rinaldi appears to have pulled the wool over Massei's eyes with his foot-matching pseudoscience will hopefully be properly addressed in Hellmann's court during closing arguments.

PS Epic US Open final going on right now!
 
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