Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[Wildhorses]

Not many. And I would not be one of those people. Any other questions?

London John, could you please elaborate on your statement that you do not think it is a fact that Knox/Sollecito are innocent?

The evidence leads me to conclude that they are innocent. Would you mind describing a scenario that both allows for their participation in the murder and fits the constraints of the (admittedly relatively sparse) established facts?

I am extremely curious.

 

[Dan O.]

Also, to Dan O.,

I have found the article (which I linked to yesterday) where Stefanoni stated she kept some samples in the refrigerator of the flat. The article in Italian and the sentence:

http://www.grr.rai.it/dl/grr/notizi...5-ad7c-47ca-a37e-319bcdfae264.html?refresh_ce

La Stefanoni ha tra l'altro rivelato come alcune delle tracce raccolte nei primi due giorni di sopralluogo (ma non quelle al centro della perizia) siano state conservate nel frigorifero della casa di via della Pergola prima di essere portate nei laboratori di Roma.

I don't know if there is any difference between stored in refrigerator (cold) or freezer (much colder). She states it was only for a few samples on the first two days of collection but I guess not for items which are central to the case (I take that to mean items which yielded results but am not sure).

I don't think she was referring to the paper envelopes but only the plastic envelopes (as being stored in the refrigerator, again not sure).

The refrigerator is recommended but could be much worse if pour regulation meant that the samples were subjected to repeated freezing and thawing cycles. Much better would be a simple portable ice chest and the samples placed inside water tight containers. How many of the samples that should have shown Meredith's blood revealed no profile?


The samples I would think most required refrigeration would be the swabs stored in the little plastic vials. These would be moistened to pick up the stains and therefore allow the bacteria from the environment being swabbed to grow and attack the DNA.

 

[Draca]

Freezer photo

Sarah at IIP posted a pic of the freezer in the apartment. I am not sure I would feel comfortable storing my ice tray in there, but whatever. They must have dumped out the rest of that stuff, probably threw it out of Filomena's window.

Here's a link to the photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater

There isn't enough room in the freezer to have stored all the bloody items collected. Jeans, long sleeve t-shirt, bra, underwear, bathmat.....

I can NOT believe they would remove the items in the freezer for two days to make room and then replace them before they left. All those food items would have been ruined and thrown into a garbage bag. Has anyone EVER heard of crime scene evidence being stored in the on site freezer before? This is to me a bizarre claim to make and where is the evidence of it? Surely the 'crack' forensic photographer would have recorded that.

* Patrizia Stefanoni claims she used the freezer to store collection bags on Nov 2-3, 2007. The photo was taken Dec 18, 2007.

 

[Fine]

Here's a link to the photo: http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...01286599.45660.106344459390034&type=1&theater

There isn't enough room in the freezer to have stored all the bloody items collected. Jeans, long sleeve t-shirt, bra, underwear, bathmat.....

I can NOT believe they would remove the items in the freezer for two days to make room and then replace them before they left. All those items would have been ruined and thrown into a garbage bag. Has anyone EVER heard of crime scene evidence being stored in the on site freezer before? This is to me a bizarre claim to make and where is the evidence of it? Surely the 'crack' forensic photographer would have recorded that.

___________________

Draca,

Looks like the photograph you posted of the freezer interior is the evidence. I see articles of clothing on the top shelf. What food item would have a frilly fringe????

///

 

[Draca]

___________________

Draca,

Looks like the photograph you posted of the freezer interior is the evidence. I see articles of clothing on the top shelf. What food item would have a frilly fringe????

///

Fine,

I'm sorry, I don't see what you do. It might be frost? This is a Dec 18th photo. The things Stefanoni claims to have put in the freezer would have already been removed.

 

[Wildhorses]

Regarding the garage stored prosecution data. Does anyone know if in Italy the prosecution must turn over all information during a discovery period?

What else is in the garage and elsewhere?

Regarding the garage: I'd like to know if Stefanoni actually has one.

Regarding discovery: If it exists, it leaves much to be desired. The prosecution has resisted handing over data all along.

 

[Fine]

Fine,

I'm sorry, I don't see what you do. It might be frost? This is a Dec 18th photo. The things Stefanoni claims to have put in the freezer would have already been removed.

_________________

Draca,

Well, what is that in contact with the top left corner of the FINDUS box? Looks like a white article of clothing to me. With a frilly fringe. The fringe draped over a deep blue background, to the left of the FINDUS box. Stefanoni must have left some of the evidence behind in the freezer. Should she be reminded now........ or is it too late?

Photograph

///

 

[Wildhorses]

New post at Perugia Shock.

http://perugiashock.com/2011/09/06/approaching-the-contamination-moment/

 

[Chris_Halkides]

nature 2010 article on low template number DNA forensics

Natasha Gilbert wrote, "[Professor Allan] Jamieson, who gave evidence in the Reed brothers’ and the Omagh bombing trials, says that the forensics community must validate procedures and further investigate the issues that low-copy-number profiling has brought to light, before scientists and courtrooms can have confidence in the results. 'The public does not
understand that just because your DNA is on an object it does not mean you have touched it,' he says." highlighting mine

 

[Bruce Fischer]

New post on Perugia Shock

From Frank regarding Stefanoni: "Perhaps she’s a bit approximate on the crime scene, where she’s lost if the fridge isn’t working, where she cancels footprints completely, where she spreads blood around, where she rubs swabs with her hands, where she agitates underwear in the air, where she puts samples in plastic bags…. That’s not really her fault, since probably nobody taught her how to move around a crime scene. But she’s great at pure DNAing. Trust me, she should have remained at the university."

Frank and I disagreed in the past on this one detail about Stefanoni. Pilot uses this all the time to to try and insinuate that I am confused. Frank has a very clear understanding about Stafanoni now. Frank is a good man and I have a great deal of respect for everything he has done. I hope those who have harassed him for the past 3 years will finally see that he was right all along when this is all over.

I wonder if Pilot will be confused when Amanda and Raffaele are exonerated.

 

[Justinian2]

I am 100% sure that technician Stefanoni is guilty.

Acquittal for Amanda would improve my estimation of courts everywhere. It will prove that a person that spends a ton of money, is honest, presents a logical case, has great lawyers, has great stamina, and has the world on her side will sometimes have an accurate finding of 'justice'.

What a euphemism this word 'justice' is, eh?

 

[Poppy1016]

I was wondering why on earth Bongiorno was not at the hearing at such a crucial time.

 

[RWVBWL]

The proscuton has gone too far to stop...

Quote:
Tagliabracci's testimony came under withering cross examination from prosecutor Manuela Commodi as the chief police forensic investigator Patrizia Stefanoni sat at the table next to her. The sparring got nasty when Commodi said that Tagliabracci had insinuated that the police results were to support the prosecutors' theory.

"Don't make insinuations that you will be sorry about later," Commodi warned, prompting objections from defense lawyers and rumblings in the courtroom. Presiding Judge Claudio Pratillo Hellmann was forced to intervene and Commodi turned to Stefanoni a few times to tell her to "be quiet" as Stefanoni was heard loudly objecting to what Tagliabracci was saying.

Commodi seems to be the only person who is unaware that the whole world is very aware that Steff has obviously done this.(minus the True Justice and PMF asylum's inmates of course, who are a collective exception to any general rule)

I find the enitire conversation on this forum about contamination due to faulty collection to be dull and misplaced. Steffanoni wasn't just clumsy, though she also was that too. Steff has blatantly cooked the results through fraudulent practises to help out her mates on the team.

She's obviously been scared s***less from the moment she was asked to hand over the paperwork, and would not do so.

And put the bra-clasp deliberately in the jar.

And came up with the fraudulent blurred negative controls bs.

And returned with the new negative control pages that had now wandered out on their own, from the middle of the file, into a garage.

and on, and on, and on.

Send her to jail for a while. Society needs to ensure that other people in the same role are deterred from fiddling around with easily manipulative evidence and other peoole's lives.
Kercher's included. It's a pity they find it hard to see who the real perpetrators of the continual pain dragging on, they go through, really are.

The prosection have mainly been interested in themselves in this case. If they knew when to leave a bad job alone (somewhere near the start of the case when Rudy's DNA results came in) the Kerchers woud have suffered far less than they have as the four years this case spends in the public eye keeps on rolling (falsely) along....

Hi TheRealBob
Your post rang a bell just a moment ago with regards to the part that I hilited.

For looking thru the old posts at PMF, I came across a bunch from a pro-guilt fellow who was often in court for the original trials back in 2009. And reading 1 of many, I was very suprised about something that Stewarthome2000 reported:

Posted: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:03 am Post subject: Friday in PG

Well as expected a portion of the trial is behind closed doors today, and perhaps tomorrow.

Everyone was allowed to enter the courtroom, to hear the decision. Avv. Maresca, as we know requested a closed hearing, but was not opposed to audio delivered outside the courtroom. The judge however decided that not only would be a closed hearing, but that neither video (of course) nor audio of the medical report would be made available to the public, at this time. Hence, when Luca Lalli was called into the courtroom, everyone except the prosecution, defense and jury left the room. It is about 11:50am and Lalli is still testifying.

Originally the owner of the lingerie store was to testify in open court, but he did not have is attorney and was postponed. We are supposed to hear from Lumumba, but that may not take place till tomorrow. It seems it may be a long day of closed testimony oggi. Tomorrow Rudy may also grace us with his presence.

In court we saw a number of medical experts for the defense - at least three for each AK and RS. Among them was medical examiner Dott. Torre who prepared the defense document having examined the body. He is a strong supporter of a one person assailant, and is said to have shown that the knife sequestered is simply too large, through repeated simulations. He is of course hired by the defense.

I had an opportunity to speak with some Italian journalists, who (through inside info) stated that the trial is just going through the motions as the prosecution has gone too far to stop, but that everyone knows (including Mattei, Mignini, Police, and etc.) that AK and RS are totally innocent. I laughed and asked if he was the same guy who wrote, Berlusconi is dead and the Prodi government would last for 10 years. There is a long way to go still...vediamo.


Last edited by stewarthome2000 on Fri Apr 03, 2009 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

Hilite by RW

Link to the page is here:
http://perugiamurderfile.net/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=121&start=2000

Anyways what you wrote above totally makes sense when I also include StewartHome2000's April 3, 2009 post that "the prosecution has gone too far to stop"...

L8, RW

 

[Draca]

Acquittal for Amanda would improve my estimation of courts everywhere. It will prove that a person that spends a ton of money, is honest, presents a logical case, has great lawyers, has great stamina, and has the world on her side will sometimes have an accurate finding of 'justice'.

What a euphemism this word 'justice' is, eh?

Justinian,

Great post. Makes it seem hopeless for the unknown person in prison who can't get anyone to listen to their story. Especially if they are low income, scary looking and have a record. Who will help them? How do they get an appeal approved? Italy has a better appeal system than most places. I'm really glad there is an Innocence Project. Thanks > Dr. Hampikian and others who have helped so many.

 

[Mary_H]

Current news from the West Seattle Herald:

By Steve Shay
2011-09-03

UPDATE 11:00 p.m. Tuesday, Seattle time

(Wednesday, 7:45 a.m. in Perugia, Italy)

Chris Mellas updated the West Seattle Herald by email with Tuesday's courtroom session. We inserted clarifications in italics in parentheses. He is currently on his way to court Wednesday. They are nine hours ahead.

We asked him why court meets during weekdays in this juried appeal trial now, when, during the first trial, court was mostly in session Friday nights and Saturdays to allow jurors to go to their weekday jobs.

"Court meeting every day? Because the judge said so. I guess is that the judge wants this done and over with. Perhaps he has other obligations in October, or he is just done with this case. I don't know for sure...but I like that it is moving toward a conclusion at a rapid pace. Amanda likes it too.

"This appeal will likely be done with a decision on the verdict within the last weeks of September, if nothing is added to the schedule.

"So, the last hearing had Stefanoni (police forensics investigator Patrizia Stefanoni who works for the prosecution) finish up on the stand, then ( Giuseppe) Novelli (The prosecution's DNA expert) went, and then someone who went for the Kerchers, (because of the family's civil suit against Amanda and Raffaele) and then ( Adriano) Tagliabracci went. He is the expert for Raffaele. He finished out the day. He is the one threatened by the prosecution to not say anything that he would regret. Everybody jumped on ( Prosecutor Manuela) Comodi for her threat, the judge included.

"He also got Stefanoni to admit that she stored evidence in Amanda's/Meredith's freezer, which just shows how unprofessional and uncaring the investigation was in regard to contamination, procedure, etc. Stefanoni just nodded and said 'yes' when asked. The picture was on the screen for the world to see, and it was expressly her job.

"Amanda was happy with the results of the day. The prosecution tried their best to make headway in discrediting the courts experts and the evidence, but she felt they did not succeed at all. Others I spoke to felt t it was a good day for the defense, even though we mostly heard from prosecution people. Their answers, in cross examination, were detrimental to their position overall. Novelli was shown to be disingenuous because he directly conflicted with things he has said in the past regarding policies, procedures, quality of evidence.'This is different' was all he had to say, and when he was asked 'In what way is this different?' he would offer no scientific reason. He would just dance around the topic like a veteran politician.

I think today (Wednesday) will be a short day too. Not a 6:30pm-ending day like the last two."

_______________

 

[RoseMontague]

_________________

Draca,

Well, what is that in contact with the top left corner of the FINDUS box? Looks like a white article of clothing to me. With a frilly fringe. The fringe draped over a deep blue background, to the left of the FINDUS box. Stefanoni must have left some of the evidence behind in the freezer. Should she be reminded now........ or is it too late?

Photograph

///

LOL. It doesn't look like a food item, that's certain. I'll check the video of 2 and 3 November to see if they show anything from earlier.

 

[Matthew Best]

Court in session. Sarah Gino and Carlo Torre on the stand.

 

[Mary_H]

Court in session. Sarah Gino and Carlo Torre on the stand.

BLNadeau: Torre showing slides of knife. Says no way it was murder weapon.
@BLNadeau: First up sara gino for #amandaknox
@BLNadeau: Sara gino talks too fast. Jury can't follow in #amandaknox appeal #knox
BLNadeau: No more questions for gino in #amandaknox appeal. Next up carlo torre. #knox #peruogia 7 minutes ag
BLNadeau: Judge tells torre not to speak as quickly as gino b/c hard to folo. #amandaknox #knox #perugia 5 minutes ago

 

[Diocletus]

I wonder if Pilot will be confused when Amanda and Raffaele are exonerated.

Or maybe the Dalai Lama will give him the gift of total consciousness.

 

[Wildhorses]

BLNadeau: Torre showing slides of knife. Says no way it was murder weapon.
@BLNadeau: First up sara gino for #amandaknox
@BLNadeau: Sara gino talks too fast. Jury can't follow in #amandaknox appeal #knox
BLNadeau: No more questions for gino in #amandaknox appeal. Next up carlo torre. #knox #peruogia 7 minutes ag
BLNadeau: Judge tells torre not to speak as quickly as gino b/c hard to folo. #amandaknox #knox #perugia 5 minutes ago

Poor Knox. The jury couldn't follow her hired gun.

That girl has the worst luck!