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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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My offer to Dr Terry still stands. If he obtains permission to scan Treblinka I will
a. provide him with return airfares on Whiz air to Warsaw
b. arrange for hire of GPR equipment
c. provide an expert operator
d. provide him with two nights accommodation in an inexpensive but clean hotel
e. arrange transfer to Treblinka for collection of data.


As I envisage it collection of data should take no more than a day. Dr Terry and collaborator(s) of his choice shall have first use of the data for a publication. All I request is all raw data be made available online in a reasonable time period (say 6 months), fully annotated, so that everyone can reconstruct "Under Treblinka" for themselves.

Obviously this would be utterly terrible for Dr Terry's career, so I have no doubt he will again reject this offer.

Collaborating with an anonymous internet troll who now has a proven track record of blethering nonsense about the Illuminati, 9/11 no-plane theories, moon hoax claims, and other assorted imbecilities certainly would not help anyone's career. Even if they were in the right academic field, which I am not, as you well know. I point to your 2,654 posts on this forum as sufficient reason to reject your spurious offer.
 
Collaborating with an anonymous internet troll who now has a proven track record of blethering nonsense about the Illuminati, 9/11 no-plane theories, moon hoax claims, and other assorted imbecilities certainly would not help anyone's career. Even if they were in the right academic field, which I am not, as you well know. I point to your 2,654 posts on this forum as sufficient reason to reject your spurious offer.

Ahh but you wouldn't be collaborating with an anonymous internet troll, you would be collaborating with Georg Fegelein.

In fact, you wouldn't be collaborating at all. The publication you could confidently expect to result would be authored by you, the GPR expert and as many collaborators as you choose (within reason).

I would not appear on the paper, I would merely pay the bills and get copies of properly annotated raw data.
 
Yet Dr. Lawrence Conyers when shown by Roberto Muehlenkamp the data illegally acquired by Krege and the Adelaide Institute that the revisionists were trumpeting half-cock as proof that there were no Treblinka graves had this to say:

" I looked at the web site, and the image you sent. It is only one small part of his 'grid'. The picture shows him using a 200 MHz antenna and collecting about 1 meter spaced transects in a huge grid. That image is not processed, and only shows about a 5 meter long section in one line. And even in that profile it looks like a bunch of "things" in the ground on the right hand side that could easily be mass graves. It is apparent that this guy either does not know anything of GPR, or at the very least does not know how to process it. To really do a good job, the data need to be put into a 3-D cube of reflections and processed in a batch, including ALL the profiles collected. If you really wanted to get to the bottom of this you either need to get his data and let someone else process it, or re-collect it all and re-process your own data. This is NOT a scientific or representive study of the ground by any stretch."

http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/05/mass-graves-at-nazi-extermination-camps.html

I for one am glad that Tobin and his gang have not sold what they thieved to Little Grey Rabbit. If not "thieved," as such, they certainly "acquired" it illegally.
 
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Yet Dr. Lawrence Conyers when shown by Roberto Muehlenkamp the data illegally acquired by Krege and the Adelaide Institute that the revisionists were trumpeting half-cock as proof that there were no Treblinka graves had this to say:



http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/05/mass-graves-at-nazi-extermination-camps.html

I for one am glad that Tobin and his gang have not sold what they thieved to Little Grey Rabbit. If not "thieved," as such, they certainly "acquired" it illegally.

"illegally acquired"?? Does someone have a patent on the radar returns of soil at Treblinka?

Elsewhere I have pointed out the problems with Conyers' claim. Most importantly that we are not looking for isolated graves but 10 metres by 25 metres by 50 metres pits.

Anyway, we all agreed on the need for a better documented survey than Krege, and we all agree it shouldn't proceed in a covert fashion.
 
Yet Dr. Lawrence Conyers when shown by Roberto Muehlenkamp the data illegally acquired by Krege and the Adelaide Institute that the revisionists were trumpeting half-cock as proof that there were no Treblinka graves had this to say:



http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/05/mass-graves-at-nazi-extermination-camps.html

I for one am glad that Tobin and his gang have not sold what they thieved to Little Grey Rabbit. If not "thieved," as such, they certainly "acquired" it illegally.
The deniers take this ultra-positivist position on "forensics" and GPR and the like, forgetting that all evidence, scientific or otherwise, must be interpreted by humans. LGR's plan here, to send someone not in the least qualified to carry out such research or to interpret it, from what I can gather from Dr Terry's remarks, is rather ingenious or is that disingenuous. At any rate, as with forensic studies from just after the war down to now, should there be new scientific examination of any Holocaust evidence, the deniers will continue deny, because they deny a priori and protect their denial with incompetent methodology.
 
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Here's what I don't get: hraka boi proposes hiring an expert in the archaeological use of GPR, flying the said expert and Nick to Treblinka. Presumably, the expert will actually gather data, while Nick observes, looking scholarly.

Then the results will need to be evaluated, I suppose by another expert, while Nick observes, looking scholarly.

Since Nick in this scenario is nothing more than window dressing why not just have a photo of Nick looking scholarly there during the gathering and interpretation?
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Little Grey Rabbit:

"illegally acquired"?? Does someone have a patent on the radar returns of soil at Treblinka?

Elsewhere I have pointed out the problems with Conyers' claim. Most importantly that we are not looking for isolated graves but 10 metres by 25 metres by 50 metres pits.

Anyway, we all agreed on the need for a better documented survey than Krege, and we all agree it shouldn't proceed in a covert fashion.

Of course it was illegally acquired, they had no permission to operate it, therefore illegally acquired. I'm not talking about copyright. You may dress it up as covert if you wish but the data was not acquired legally. Possibly this is why they won't sell it on to you.

Anyway, crime or not, if you want to take the matter up further with Dr. Conyers who apparently has some expertise in the matter, then please do so. I prefer the voice of authority in this than that of an anonymous "rabbit." You do of course know the history of the site and it would be utter tedium for us to rehash it again.

Conyers writes, "mass graves." Pits where human remains were once deposited are also mass graves aren't they? Whilst it is true that a pit can be any size, Conyers clearly writes, "mass graves." Isolated? These are mass graves.

Roberto Muehlenkamp who has carried out the most research of anyone anywhere in the World that I know of into this matter of Holocaust-era mass graves using all available information does think that a professional non-invasive examination using GPR technology is over due however.
 
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"illegally acquired"?? Does someone have a patent on the radar returns of soil at Treblinka?.

Its called copywrite. There may be patents involved if the researcher built new equipment or developed new techniques using existing commercial equipment.
 
I don't think so, I think they hired a GPR unit from somewhere. They guiltily smuggled it onto the site. They took some photographs of themselves operating it and also a short video. These along with the scans later surfaced on the Internet. In those circumstances it seems difficult to next to impossible to see how they could then apply for a freaking patent upon data that they had illegally acquired in first place from what was a bog standard unmodified unit. But the central point is that they had no permission whatsoever to fool about with a GPR at Treblinka.

When I was young 'un I took a metal detector into a church graveyard. Within about a minute of switching it on and starting a standard search, I of course started unearthing small finds. After an exciting ten minutes of my finding coin after coin, a man of the cloth from the neighbouring vicarage appeared. He started shouting at me (quite rightly I think too) about how I was desecrating consecrated land where people were buried. To make a long story short, he confiscated all of my treasures and practically threw me out on my ear of the churchyard.

Whilst no disturbance of the soil of Treblinka took place in this case I do not see why those clowns the $%^&£" are still in possession of an equivalent, in valuable archaeological data, which was ILLEGALLY ACQUIRED. Only a sociopath like LGR's could fail to understand that.

Those Krege buffoons did to some extent light the way to a possible future non invasive scan of the site. However, they came determined to find nothing. Thus just like Saggy and Clayton e.g. they too were engaged in active ideological negativism.

Do you see that they were data nighthawks? Dr. Tobin and his pal, the cack-handed Craigie. I would seriously be making out a case for confiscating the data from them. Particularly as data has now become the new treasure. That they are still in possession of the scans is surprising to me.

However considering how tirelessly the Industry protects the hoax, you would have thought that the Adelaide Zog scuffers would at least be kicking the door down and pulling them in for holding potentially extremely damaging and dangerous data on the "Treblinka fraud." Even if it is only a partial raw result.

Perhaps LGR is confused as well as a border-line criminal as he seems to have a separate bee in his bonnet with Lemmy Caution over patents and the laws of copyright. He's been told once already.
 
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Ironically, it is Chomsky who gave the most vicious expression of the prohibition on any discussion of the holohoax, writing

The Holocaust was the most extreme atrocity in human history, and we lose our humanity if we are even willing to enter the arena of debate with those who seek to deny or underplay Nazi crimes.

By entering into the arena of argument and counterargument, of technical feasibility and tactics, of footnotes and citations, by accepting the presumption of legitimacy of debate on certain issues, one has already lost one’s humanity.


This is from one of the world's greatest phony 'champions of free speech.' Chomsky, like every 'liberal' Zionist, is a fraud when it comes to the holohoax.

Where is Chomsky quoted as saying this?
 
Read all about Eric Hunt's experiences with the Stanford Library here ....

http://www.holocaustdenier.com/2011/09/spielberg%E2%80%99s-cabal-banned-me-from-stanford-libraries/

Here's a taste ....

In a sane world, an Ivy League University would be embarrassed to fund and prop up totally historically false, Zionist hate fiction such as Zisblatt and Paul Parks’ “testimonies”. The correct reaction Stanford should have to my analysis of Spielberg’s Shoah Foundation would be to stop funding the Shoah Foundation and dump their laughable propaganda from their libraries in order to maintain their prestigious reputation.

But they are not embarrassed.

Let’s embarrass them. Spread the link to my documentary The Last Days of the Big Lie and let the filmmakers themselves personally know how you feel about their anti-German Oscar winning hate hoax The Last Days, which includes two false claims of Nazi “experimentation”, two liars who claim to have escaped from inside gas chambers, sick scatological lies about a Jewish girl repeatedly swallowing and defecating diamonds in Auschwitz for a year, and even a black American soldier who claims to have liberated Dachau – when in reality documents prove he was hundreds of miles away.


I'm actually surprised Mr. Hunt has been able to get away with using as many clips from The Last Days and the Shoah Foundation as he does. I expected a cease and desist letter from Spielberg's attorney as soon as his film caught their attention. I doubt that getting banned from Stanford University will be the last action taken against Mr. Hunt. In the meantime, he can always go to USC to access Shoah Foundation video.

Mr. Hunt's difficulties are related to using copy write material without permission. He might be able to legally use clips from the Spielberg film for commentary and criticism but the Shoah Foundation videos aren't in the same category as a commercially release motion picture. Nobody likes somebody else using their intellectual property without permission. The fact that his film--as wretched as it is--makes the owners of the material look like blithering idiots doesn't help his cause. And, of course, mocking the holocaust and criticizing Jews means that people other than the owners of the intellectual property he uses are going to get angry at him. But his problems are with copy written material first and foremost.

It's too bad. His idea of quote mining the Shoah Foundation videos to find anecdotes about guard/prisoner football games or sewing curtains for prisoner produced plays is a good one. Listening to comments like the one from Shlomo Venezia about being given hot tea, "without sugar, of course" or complaints about "unpeeled potatoes" in the soup puts things in perspective and gives us a fuller understanding of the horrors of the holocaust. And what could be wrong with that?
 
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Hey, DZ, you seem to have missed this one:
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Perhaps you'd like to offer us an example of this separate standard (remembering not to make statements like "there is no physical evidence") regarding any other mass murder in contemporary history, and I will demonstrate how that same standard applies to the Holocaust. Or we can play it the other way -- what standard can you document being used re:the Holocaust which does not apply to other historical events?
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Must have been an oversight on your part, and I'm sure you'll detail this separate standard for us now...
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The best science is simple science. We don't really have any interest in calcium levels because all we looking for is major earth disturbance.

Since we know from aerial photos what areas were being used as fields in 1944, and what areas were enclosed by a camp (assuming the air photos have not had a little visit prior to release) - all we need to do is take scans of areas known not to have had mass graves and compare them with areas of the camp.

Of course, I am open to discussions regarding the methodology but since the issue is really quite straightforward, I don't anticipate any problems PROVIDED WE ARE DEALING WITH PEOPLE ACTING IN GOOD FAITH.

I have no problems if people also want to examine calcium content as well, but they do so on their own dime.


LGR is right. We're not asking for somebody to develop a Manhattan project here. Is there evidence of large soil disturbances consistent with the large mass graves at the AR camps or not? It ain't that tough.

Naturally, all parties concerned would need to decide in advance where we would look for mass graves and what we would use for our control. More difficult, but not impossible, would be figuring out a way to have the data analyzed in a way that would shield the people doing the analysis from the consequences of not finding mass graves. We wouldn't want anybody to end up Ivan Legaced or forced to do the James Roth dance.

Another option would be to dust off the Treblinka report that was done by the Poles in 1946 and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal, doesn't matter where, and get it stamped with the proper seal of approval. As it stands, this report entered the public arena without the endorsement of proper peer review. The few professionals who are even aware of it have largely pointed and gone 'bwahahaha'.

That would at least give the pro-mass grave people something to support their view besides the fantastical statements of unreliable eyewitnesses.
 
I'm actually surprised Mr. Hunt has been able to get away with using as many clips from The Last Days and the Shoah Foundation as he does. I expected a cease and desist letter from Spielberg's attorney as soon as his film caught their attention. I doubt that getting banned from Stanford University will be the last action taken against Mr. Hunt. In the meantime, he can always go to USC to access Shoah Foundation video.

Mr. Hunt's difficulties are related to using copy write material without permission. He might be able to legally use clips from the Spielberg film for commentary and criticism but the Shoah Foundation videos aren't in the same category as a commercially release motion picture. Nobody likes somebody else using their intellectual property without permission. The fact that his film--as wretched as it is--makes the owners of the material look like blithering idiots doesn't help his cause. And, of course, mocking the holocaust and criticizing Jews means that people other than the owners of the intellectual property he uses are going to get angry at him. But his problems are with copy written material first and foremost.

It's too bad. His idea of quote mining the Shoah Foundation videos to find anecdotes about guard/prisoner football games or sewing curtains for prisoner produced plays is a good one. Listening to comments like the one from Shlomo Venezia about being given hot tea, "without sugar, of course" or complaints about "unpeeled potatoes" in the soup puts things in perspective and gives us a fuller understanding of the horrors of the holocaust. And what could be wrong with that?

Spielberg is between a rock and a rock. Like anyone guilty of lying he doesn't want to draw attention to the lies and suffer the consequences.
 
. . . using copy write material without permission . . . his problems are with copy written material first and foremost. . .
It's copyright, btw, and copyrighted. "Copy written" implies promotional copy written by an assistant marketer. That said, Dogzilla should have a little chat with LGR . . . as, no, people don't generally like it when someone steals their property, and even less so for purposes which they do not endorse. People are funny like that.
 
Like anyone guilty of lying he doesn't want to draw attention to the lies and suffer the consequences.
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Yeah, too bad for you that I am here to point out those lies in your posts that you run from so as not to draw attention.

Like claiming THHP was little but lies.

Like claiming Krege proved anything.

Like claiming no website could mention Jewish / Israeli spies without being labeled anti-semitic.

Like suggesting that those sites which were labeled anti-semitic wore the label unfairly.

Like your continued insistence that Jews control the MM.

Like ... well, our readers at home have seen your tireless crusade to justify your irrational hate...
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Spielberg is between a rock and a rock. Like anyone guilty of lying he doesn't want to draw attention to the lies and suffer the consequences.

You mean like you continuously draw attention to your many lies by not fessing up to them?
 
LGR is right. We're not asking for somebody to develop a Manhattan project here. Is there evidence of large soil disturbances consistent with the large mass graves at the AR camps or not? It ain't that tough.

Naturally, all parties concerned would need to decide in advance where we would look for mass graves and what we would use for our control. More difficult, but not impossible, would be figuring out a way to have the data analyzed in a way that would shield the people doing the analysis from the consequences of not finding mass graves. We wouldn't want anybody to end up Ivan Legaced or forced to do the James Roth dance.

Another option would be to dust off the Treblinka report that was done by the Poles in 1946 and submit it to a peer-reviewed journal, doesn't matter where, and get it stamped with the proper seal of approval. As it stands, this report entered the public arena without the endorsement of proper peer review. The few professionals who are even aware of it have largely pointed and gone 'bwahahaha'.

That would at least give the pro-mass grave people something to support their view besides the fantastical statements of unreliable eyewitnesses.

Eh? What are you talking about? Can you even cite a single professional who's gone 'bwahahaha' about the Polish 1945 report on Treblinka? And no, Mattogno et al don't count as professionals.

I find it strange that you think that investigative report need to be "peer reviewed". Are police reports generally "peer-reviewed", or don't they in fact constitute raw evidence and data?

It all smacks of goalpost-moving proceduralism to me. No denier has ever presented a coherent objection to the 1945 report on Treblinka, which together with the associated photos constitute prima facie evidence of the mass graves, soil disturbance and presence of cremated human remains on the site.

It so happens that I have a copy of the report sitting on my desk beside my laptop, right now, taken from a microfilm of the court file submitted to the trial of Ludwig Fischer at al in Warsaw in 1947. The text of the main part of the report is floating around in enough places. The photos are not. As my copy is taken from a microfilm of pages on which prints of the photos were stuck, the resolution is not the best, and so no, I won't be scanning them for anyone. There are 12 photos, of which not more than 2 can be found on the internet right now. And they don't include most of the well known photos that are available on the internet. The pockmarking on the landscape is quite apparent even from the copy of a copy of a copy, as are the shapes of human skulls, the depth of graves being excavated, and the barrenness of the landscape.

The photos and the protocols of the excavations form part of two files which were submitted to the Polish court in 1947, which also contain the witness statements of survivors and bystanders along with numerous surviving German documents, mostly waybills for rail shipments in and out of the camp, including a fairly extensive set of waybills documenting the dismantling of the camp. Some of the documents are referenced in the summary report in German Crimes in Poland which is on the internet. One can see very clearly how the summary report was arrived at from the much larger collection of materials. These were incidentally published on several occasions in Poland, both in the 1940s and 1950s.

I don't care if some troll goes wah-wah-wah and demands to be spoonfed, the materials are there, filed in the proper place, much of them published, in the relevant language. The photos would presumably be in the IPN archive. I have seen other photos not from this sequence and not to be found on websites in other publications in Polish, citing from IPN photo archive references.

I don't care what denier crybabies say because it's up to them to make a case, not for others to go over ground that's been gone over in the correct arenas multiple times since 1945.

The materials I have just summarised make it quite clear that Dogzilla and co are flat-out lying or deluded if they try to peddle a 'no mass graves' line. Not even Mattogno tries that, for God's sake.

But approximately every 5-10 pages of this thread, Dogzilla or some other denier defaults back to 'no mass graves'. It's like you can't help yourselves. And it's that pointless defaulting to insanity that means there is virtually no point trying to cure you and your kind of your colossal ignorance and of your arrogant handwaving of perfectly good evidence.
 
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