Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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You haven't pointed out anything of the sort. You haven't made any argument of any substance. I agree that the vocabulary and phraseology of the highlighted passage are quite bizarre. I've heard only one side offering an explanation. I haven't heard any explanation at all from you. Nothing but sneering dismissal.

Rolfe.
 
I would have thought that if someone was going to dismiss a letter from the sister of the deceased as a forgery (or added to, altered or whatever) they would have some evidence. Nobody has. I'm pointing that out. Sneering? I just don't agree with Fine's and other's opinion of this letter. Something you and others have to deal with.
 
The Kerchers, the Knoxes and Sub-judice, plus some stuff about what people wore

In the UK, (which I'm not claiming as some paragon of justice, it's not!) we have strict rules about sub-judice contempt, which means that from the moment of arrest to the point of conviction, the media can't publish any material that might be deemed prejudicial to the jury, witnesses, or (non-professional) judiciary. (These laws do not cover legal proceedings in other countries- the Kerchers, as well as all the tabloid smears in UK tabloids are fine there!). If, in the UK police leaked prejudicial info to the media, they could also be charged with contempt under the sub-judice rules.
One of the differences between the Knoxes and the Kerchers is that the Knoxes come from a country where there aren't sub-judice rules and the Kerchers come from a country where there are (Again, not saying they are bound by those rules in this case, merely that this is their frame of reference). Another difference is that the Knoxes felt compelled to talk to the media extensively as a response to the dreadful smear taking place in the media with the collusion the police which is an absolutely classic example of why we have sub-judice rules in the UK.
Generally speaking though, I think it's clear that even without the background of this smear, the Knoxes public statements are always going to be less prejudicial than the Kerchers'. This is because, although a lot of posters here feel that an attitude of impartial objectivity as to who committed the crime is too much to expect from the Kerchers, people do expect families of victims of crime to want the person/ people who actually committed the crime (and only that person) to be found guilty and sentenced accordingly- they want a result that reflects the truth. Therefore, when the family of the victim speak out against defendants, people who don't have a detailed knowledge of the evidence will think that statements such as the Kerchers' must reflect the truth. On the other hand, people don't expect the families of defendants to be as interested in the truth, and will always expect a bias in their statements- therefore the Knoxes statements (and the Sollecitos') are not as prejudicial.
There is also the fact that has already been pointed out by posters here, that for the family of the victim to equate justice with a guilty verdict, and taking a public opinion on the actual evidence is an emotionally manipulative strategy which has the effect (intended or not) of making it difficult for people to question evidence and guilt.
Again, in the UK, the only place for the victim's family in a courtroom is to testify as to the effect that the crime has had. Anything more than this involvement would be too biased and partial and subjective. In some countries, victims are more involved in the sentencing phase and this is at least slightly more appropriate (at least the defendant should be guilty beyond reasonable doubt).
Finally, (on sub-judice) I'd point out that although in the UK sub-judice rules apply to the point of conviction / verdict, because appeals aren't automatic in the way they are in Italy, and extending them to the end of any possible appeal would be in effect to extend indefinitely, we can still say that if Italy had similar rules, we can say they should apply to when the verdict is either confirmed or overturned by the appeal court (to keep in the spirit of those laws, as the appeal in Italy is de novo etc).
I personally think that what's happened in the case of Amanda Knox and Raffaelle Sollecito and what is happening to Sabrina Misseri (and countless other people in the town) show the urgent need for some sub-judice rules in Italy. In AK/RS case, we might know that their convictions were overturned because there was never a genuine case to be made, but it is primarily because of the media coverage in this case (reporting prejudical material from the police, prosecutor, the Kerchers etc) that the wider public will probably think that their convictions were overturned because of technicalities / legal loopholes, and this perception will follow them around for the rest of their lives, sadly. :(

As to the dress of Amanda and her family, I'm reminded of an experience of my own. My aunt lives between Perugia and Gubbio, and so I've spent a lot of summers there. When I was 14, me and my family went to see the church at Assisi (just up the road from Capanne). Being used to English 'summers' I found the heat in Perugia in August almost unbearable, and on that day wore shorts and a t-shirt. On trying to enter the church my path was blocked by a guard with a gun screaming Italian in my face. My parents pulled me away out of the church entrance, apologised to me, and explained that the guard was saying that I couldn't wear shorts into a church. I couldn't understand why a child wearing shorts on a blasting hot day was 'inappropriate' and still can't. Like I say, my parents apologised to me for not having thought that my attire might be considered inappropriate. But they were intelligent people, who'd probably spent a total of about 2 years in Italy by the point, and they didn't fully understand the Italians' obsession with what people wear.
So I think the Knoxes have just not understood what absurd importance Italians place on dress and notions of respectability and modesty. My opinion only!
 
I would have thought that if someone was going to dismiss a letter from the sister of the deceased as a forgery (or added to, altered or whatever) they would have some evidence. Nobody has. I'm pointing that out. Sneering? I just don't agree with Fine's and other's opinion of this letter. Something you and others have to deal with.


The letter is the evidence. Fine's informed opinion is based on Fine's knowledge and experience -- in particular, on a familiarity with the English language, with how lawyers sometimes operate, and with Maresca's behavior in the past.
 
The letter is the evidence. Fine's informed opinion is based on Fine's knowledge and experience -- in particular, on a familiarity with the English language, with how lawyers sometimes operate, and with Maresca's behavior in the past.

Fine's "informed opinion" =/= evidence. Ironic given the demand for those on the other side of the argument to provide forensic evidence of every claim.
 
Let's read that sentence again, shall we?

"How can only a small amount of DNA evidence be deemed countless, when the independent review team have no answer for exactly how much should be counted?"

What does it mean?
 
The sentence itself is evidence that something unusual has happened with that letter. The explanation that an English girl spontaneously chose these words and that construction to formulate a spontaneous thought of her own is a non-runner.

The sentence appears to have been formulated by a non-English speaker, and it's reasonable to ask why this might be. I've heard a number of explanations in this thread.

  • Stephanie wrote the letter in Italian, and the English version is a translation of that.
  • The letter as published is not Stephanie's original letter, but has been translated to Italian and back again to English.
  • The letter has been added to by a non-English speaker (presumably Maresca).
I can think of one more, myself.

  • Stephanie wrote the letter, but at the instigation of Maresca, who was heavily guiding her if not dictating it. Stephanie has become so used to discussing these issues with Maresca in his Italianate English that the incongruity of the wording didn't occur to her.
I'm open to other explanations, but Lionking doesn't seem to have any.

I don't know enough about Stephanie's fluency in Italian to know if it's at all likely that she wrote the letter in that language. Perhaps someone can enlighten me. I can't see any reason for a back-translation to be published rather than an English original, and I only include that suggestion for completeness.

The other two possibilities suggest that the letter, or at least the part under discussion, was essentially written or dictated by Maresca. I'm open to other suggestions of course, but "you have no evidence" doesn't cut it. The sentence itself is evidence.

Rolfe.
 
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Plenty. I have little to no respect for Maresca; I view him as being willing to manipulate a court into reaching a false verdict so long as it places him on the winning side. To the extent this makes him a "good attorney", it only speaks ill of attorneys in general.

I have no doubt that he played a key role in turning the Kerchers into guilters, although they are still ultimately responsible for their own beliefs.

The Kerchers believe too deeply in the stories they are told by a flamboyant self-interested idiot, whose stupid antics in court consistently provide reassurance to the defence.
(not to mention believing anything a dope like Mignini could concoct...)

It's us and them out there and Maresca thinks he's a big star in the side of the case that he got handed.
I agree with Londonjohn's comments that the Kerchers, who won't influence the result, might be best to comment that the initial investigation (certainly) and first trial (definitely) don't seem to provide clear guidelines to the real perpetrator of the crime.
At best, it's confused.
There's no real case of any kind aganst the other two.
But, needless to say to most people of average intelligence it's obviously a breakin and murder that Rudy did.

You have to feel sorry for the Kerchers but if you had any common sense you'd run a mile before being associated with the prosecution side's ''us' (in anything really, let alone in this case that they're going to obviously lose...................very disgracefully)
 
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I have to say that I've marked student essays with some strange sentences, and not all of them from non-English-speaking backgrounds, but the kind of errors in that letter don't feel to me like the errors poor native English speakers make. I think we shouldn't dismiss the double translation idea, since it covers the facts perfectly well, but if it turns out that the letter as we read it was supposedly penned by Ms. S. Kercher then I would join the call of shenanigans.
 
I note that the PMF posters seem unable to make out the text of the on-screen letter, which I believe is what has been posted here. Lacking that, someone has translated the Italian version into English. The sentence in question reads a lot better in this back-translation than it does in what purports to be the original!

How can a quantity of DNA evidence be considered of little importance when the same experts do not give precise answers on the quantity which ought to be taken into consideration?


Weird.

Rolfe.
 
Let's read that sentence again, shall we?

"How can only a small amount of DNA evidence be deemed countless, when the independent review team have no answer for exactly how much should be counted?"

What does it mean?


The use of the word "countless" is a clear indication that whoever wrote that sentence has no intuitive grasp of the nuances of the English language. That word would absolutely never be used by a native English speaker in the way that it's intended here.

The writer of this sentence is intending to convey the impression that the "small amount of DNA evidence" is deemed too small to be counted - in which case the correct word to employ would be "unmeasurable" or "unquantifiable". But in contrast, the word "countless" actually means the direct opposite: too LARGE to be counted (e.g. "I've told many of the pro-guilt commentators countless times how ignorant and biased they are" :D).

It's similar to the words "priceless" (meaning too valuable to have a price placed on it) and "worthless" (meaning of such a low value as to make it impossible to assign a price). A non-English speaker might easily mix up these two words - which are, on the face of it, very similar, but which mean diametrically opposite things.

Stephanie Kercher is a fairly well-educated native English speaker. There is absolutely no way that she would have used the word "countless" to convey the meaning intended. Therefore the only reasonable conclusion to draw is either that her English letter had been translated to Italian and back to the English version shown in the screen shot, or that a non-native English speaker wrote that sentence. Personally, I lean towards the latter explanation.
 
Drag that one out when all other arguments fail

some of us might conclude that you're only here to snipe and belittle, and have no substantive arguments to contribute.

Oh, of course.

Sorry I cannot let that one slip by.

When anyone not swallowing the 'company line' argument here of absolute virginal immaculate innocence, dares to question some argument that is clearly ridiculous, out comes the long in tooth, beaten to death accusation about 'substance'.
Usually accompanied by challenges about the googled de gook ToD.

I mean really... after 65,000+, how much 'substance' is left to argue.

So when an opposition poster points out obvious errors here so that they also as so many here have, do not become 'truth' solely by repetitive regurgitation in an opposition free echo chamber adorned with accumulative but certainly not not accretive 'atta boys'....
alas and alack, the opposition is accused ad nauseam of having no 'substance'.

That well worn, tired 'substance' argument/accusation makes about as much sense as only taking your toddler to a degreed/ accredited pediatrician to have a diaper changed or your doggie only to a fully 'degreed/accredited' individual to have its toenails trimmed
 
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Oh, of course.

Sorry I cannot let that one slip by.

When anyone not swallowing the 'company line' argument here of absolute virginal immaculate innocence, dares to question some argument that is clearly ridiculous, out comes the long in tooth, beaten to death accusation about 'substance'.
Usually accompanied by challenges about the googled de gook ToD.

I mean really... after 65,000+, how much 'substance' is left to argue.

So when an opposition poster points out obvious errors here so that they also as so many here have, do not become 'truth' solely by repetitive regurgitation in an opposition free echo chamber adorned with accumulative but certainly not not accretive 'atta boys'....
alas and alack, the opposition is accused ad nauseam of having no 'substance'.

That well worn, tired 'substance' argument/accusation makes about as much sense as only taking your toddler to a degreed/ accredited pediatrician to have a diaper changed or your doggie only to a fully 'degreed/accredited' individual to have its toenails trimmed


Hi Pilot!

Great to see your usual high standard of incisive and informative analysis of the facts of the case! You really are good at presenting factual analysis of the Knox/Sollecito trials process, and we can all be thankful that you manage to resist the urge either to attack the arguers or to merely pass comment on others' posts without adding anything of any value yourself :)

In passing, I wonder whether you've sent Barbie Clouseau an email to let her know that she is mistaken on the identity of Knox's lead lawyer. After all, she wrote the following in her critically-unacclaimed tome "Angel Face" (my bolding):

"Amanda's own lawyers were less effective. Carlo Dalla Vedova, brought in by the family from Rome because he was fluent in English, had never tried a criminal case. His law practice serves Rome's power brokers. Amanda's other attorney was Luciano Ghirga... white hair and provincial charm make him loveable. Ghirga had experience with criminal cases.

If Ghirga - a Perugian insider - had been the lead lawyer, the case may have gone differently"
("Angel Face", by Barbie Latza Clouseau, pp148, 152)


Ain't that strange, huh? Someone so intimately acquainted with the case and its protagonists, and yet she manages to erroneously place Dalla Vedova rather than Ghirga as Knox's lead lawyer. I'm sure she'd welcome it if you were to point out her error to her. After all, you know the truth of the matter, don't you...?
 
Just for the record, I did not at any point consult Google with respect to the time of death argument. I had no need to do that. Frankly, it's self-evident.

I would say, though, that Google is an excellent means of finding high-quality, accurate information about all sorts of things, so long as one has the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff and give due weight to the provenance and authority of the references found.

Rolfe.
 
So I think the Knoxes have just not understood what absurd importance Italians place on dress and notions of respectability and modesty. My opinion only!

Whether absurd or not is not excusable that after a few weeks they didn't get the need to dress correctly for the circumstances. Amanda had been planning the year in Italy for quite some time and should have picked up dress standards well before leaving. Many countries, from my travel experience, look askance at women wearing shorts in public.


Edda, certainly didn't need to be up-to-date when she arrived but should have been six months later.

And as for court attire, we here also favor a certain level of formality.
 
Just for the record, I did not at any point consult Google with respect to the time of death argument. I had no need to do that. Frankly, it's self-evident.

I would say, though, that Google is an excellent means of finding high-quality, accurate information about all sorts of things, so long as one has the ability to sort the wheat from the chaff and give due weight to the provenance and authority of the references found.

Rolfe.


And of course it requires threshold amounts of innate intelligence, rational objectivity and reasoning skills (especially in matters related to science). Some people have passed beyond the threshold in these areas, and are therefore able to use the power and breadth of the internet to research, interpret, assimilate, cross-reference, weigh, and draw conclusions.

Others, regrettably, have not reached the thresholds in these areas. These individuals are rather self-identifying.
 
Pilot,

I've been looking for a response to my last PM to you and hope to see one soon now that you are back.

When anyone not swallowing the 'company line' argument here of absolute virginal immaculate innocence, dares to question some argument that is clearly ridiculous, out comes the long in tooth, beaten to death accusation about 'substance'.
Usually accompanied by challenges about the googled de gook ToD

I would argue that the above was originally written in English, translated into Finnish and then translated back to comment board English. :rolleyes:
 
I note that Thoughtful has now transcribed Stephanie's letter from the screen-shot, and it seems to be verbatim what was posted here. He also believes this is Stephanie's original.

As LondonJohn says, the usage of the word "countless" is a total smoking gun. No native English speaker would use it in that sense.

Rolfe.
 
I was under the impression that all victims in Italy are given the right to have their attorney present during the trial without the need to file a civil suit. Is this not the case?
 
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