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UFOs: The Research, the Evidence

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ufology said:
I wish you people would knock off the slights about me not being able to understand what you are talking about.
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Less wishful thinking and more demonstrations of actual understanding might help you with that.

Repeating the same baseless assertions and then rubber stamping the responses to them with "The above is a misrepresentation of my position" or "The above poster is a great big meanie" definitely won't.


ufology said:
When I posted a case where perceptual issues could not have reasonably explained the incident, it was simply dismissed as unreliable, even when it came from the head of Project Blue Book.
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First hand account was it? Written up within hours of the actual incident? With some lovely corroborating evidence?


ufology said:
The other thing I just found out that causes me to take pause is that over 80 posts just got moved from Knowers/Believers vs. Skeptics, without any explanation to this thread.
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Thread hijacking = naughty. Multiple zombie threads = naughty. Don't do.

There ya go.


ufology said:
Most of them were about my personal experience, so now they are out of context. I had written them all from the perspective of knowing ( as in knowledge from firsthand experience ).
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Anecdotes are anecdotes and will be treated as such no matter where they appear. Repeating your bizarre misunderstanding that the nature of the responses to a thread is radically affected by the presence of certain words in the thread title, no matter how many times the just-ain't-so-ness of this is pointed out to you isn't winning you any friends and it certainly isn't influencing people.


ufology said:
Now they are apparently stuck here in the evidence thread someplace and it probably looks to newcomers like I'm trying to present my personal experience as evidence here . . .
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Don't sweat it too much. It looks like that to oldcomers as well.


ufology said:
. . . which isn't appropriate and means whoever did it has misrepresented my entire discussion in one fell swoop. Consequently, don't be surprised if you don't see me around much.

j.r.
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Sounds like a personal problem. Have you considered a thread in FC?
 
ufology said:
Q. How does one go about searching for evidence of alien visitation?
A. Did I not say that sitting back chanting "show me the evidence" was the easy job? Or are you asking because you think I'm wrong? If I'm wrong then you tell me how to easily get the evidence. Here is one effort that I mentioned before: http://www.hessdalen.org/index_e.shtml
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Hmmm... I think I preferred RoboTimbo's answer in #10917. What the little black dog wisely pointed out was that it's the skeptical folk who do the donkey work trying to falsify the null hypothesis. How? By finding out the migration paths of gooses, the mating behaviour of fireflies, the position of oil-well flares, understanding how group psychology could explain flaps such as the one in Belgium... that sort of thing.

Much of that stuff is so easy it can be done from the comfort of our own executive desk chairs or sofas just by typing into Google. Why don't UFOlogists do this more often?

ufology said:
On the topic of DMT ( an active ingredient in ayahuasca ). You know that there is no scientific evidence that the pineal glad in humans actually produces any.
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Yes, I did know that. Did I said that the pineal gland produced DMT? No, I don't think I did. You do love your straw, don't you? ;)

ufology said:
As for the extraordinary experiences of hallucinogens ... Correct me if I'm wrong, but they're something you know to be true ... right?
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Sorry, I don't understand what you're getting at here. I was only using my own experience to illustrate that not all skeptics have led dull lives. One of the things hallucinogens can do is show the user how easy it is to make our brains perceived the physical world in a very different way indeed - and very quickly. See, our senses don't always work the same and our brains don't always interpret things in the same way.

ufology said:
As for believers turned skeptic. What makes you think I'm not skeptical? Just because I've seen one and enjoy studying the phenomenon doesn't mean I suddenly believe every light in the sky is an alien craft. If a skeptical non believer were to have the same or better kind of experience as I did, then the they would be deluding themselves to believe it wasn't something alien, and if they accepted the reality of what they saw, they'd be stuck in the same boat I'm in. I'm not going to deny the reality of what I know to be true just to be accepted in some social network.
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I hear what you're saying, but I still don't think you're being skeptical about your own experience seeing this UFO. You say you're skeptical but in the same breath tell me that you that you know it (that it was alien) to be true.

You choose to believe it was alien in origin even though do not have sufficient evidence to conclude it was alien (i.e. falsify the null hypothesis that all UFOs are of mundane origin). This isn't skeptical thinking in my book.

No UFOlogist thinks that all unexplained lights in the sky are alien spaceships, but that that doesn't make them skeptics.

Lastly there are people who have been non-believers and turned believers as well. With UFOs this is understandable. It's not the same thing as other paranormal claims ( spoon bending or psychic whatever ) ... not the same at all ... not even remotely close.
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Why not the same? Some people become believers in crop circles being non-man made, in telekenesis, in crystal healing, in homeopathy, because of experiences that they've had personally. They see something, or get cured, or whatever, and - without evidence - put it down to the magic powers of the homeopathic water/crop circle aliens etc. Why is this any different from believing UFOs come from outer space/another dimension because of a personal experience?
 
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ufology said:
Often I simply use the words "Air Force" to denote military pilots in general, because they are the best of the best. They all go through rigorous training and testing before they are allowed to fly military aircraft, moreso than civilian pilots, because military pilots, especially fighter pilots are required to be able to identify many kinds of high performance foreign military aircraft, undergo additional physical examinations and testing to be able to react with split second timing and reflexes in high stress situations. Plus they are accountable to a chain of command that follows strict rules. Consequently they are less likely to make observational errors or concoct fabrications. Regardless of what Air Force they are with, they are some of the best witnesses possible.

j.r.
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puke2.gif
That damned Reliable Source, it makes me feel so queasy!

I trust this fawning outburst means that you will attempt to observe Puddle Duck's request?
 
ufology said:
The other thing I just found out that causes me to take pause is that over 80 posts just got moved from Knowers/Believers vs. Skeptics, without any explanation to this thread.
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That kind of thing is bound to happen when you drag the conversation around from thread to thread to thread at your own whim, under the misconception that such tactics will allow you to change the rules of discussion to your liking. The depth of your reliance on special pleadings is surely extraordinary, if you really expect any thread on the JREF forums to offer protection from the test of critical analysis.


ufology said:
Most of them were about my personal experience, so now they are out of context. I had written them all from the perspective of knowing ( as in knowledge from firsthand experience ).
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We've discussed your "personal experience" here before, so I don't understand what the big deal is about.


ufology said:
Now they are apparently stuck here in the evidence thread someplace and it probably looks to newcomers like I'm trying to present my personal experience as evidence here, which isn't appropriate and means whoever did it has misrepresented my entire discussion in one fell swoop.
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This is the thread for discussing UFO stories. I don't know why you're so upset about having your posts moved here. You don't have any real evidence to present anyway, so it's a moot point. You're in the same boat with every other UFOlogist in that regard.

As you've been told many times before, if you're really so concerned about the label of "pseudoscience," then the best way to avoid that label is to stop practicing pseudoscience.


ufology said:
Consequently, don't be surprised if you don't see me around much.
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Really?!? I don't believe it for a second.
 
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ufology said:
I wish you people would knock off the slights about me not being able to understand what you are talking about. When I posted a case where perceptual issues could not have reasonably explained the incident, it was simply dismissed as unreliable, even when it came from the head of Project Blue Book.
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Hilariously, you whine about us noting your inability to understand right before a sentence that shows your inability to understand. Which case are you claiming that perceptual issues could not reasonably be the cause?

The other thing I just found out that causes me to take pause is that over 80 posts just got moved from Knowers/Believers vs. Skeptics, without any explanation to this thread. Most of them were about my personal experience, so now they are out of context. I had written them all from the perspective of knowing ( as in knowledge from firsthand experience ).
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So, an unfalsifiable anecdotal account then?

Now they are apparently stuck here in the evidence thread someplace and it probably looks to newcomers like I'm trying to present my personal experience as evidence here, which isn't appropriate and means whoever did it has misrepresented my entire discussion in one fell swoop.
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This misrepresentation thing again. Do you think it's a conspiracy?

Consequently, don't be surprised if you don't see me around much.

j.r.
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Your own version of a Rrapid exit?
 
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Puddle Duck said:
I was a USAF F-4 pilot. You probably got thrown by the fact that I was stationed at RAF Bentwaters in E. Suffolk from '70-'74, so I got around Europe a bit and had some familiarity with that area of the world. I am not a UFO expert by any means, although like any jock, I've had a few UFO ( but not "UFO" and definitely no "alien") sightings.
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Thanks for the claification. I was just speaking from memory (which sometimes is not as good as UFO proponents claim it is).
 
ufology said:
Often I simply use the words "Air Force" to denote military pilots in general, because they are the best of the best. They all go through rigorous training and testing before they are allowed to fly military aircraft, moreso than civilian pilots, because military pilots, especially fighter pilots are required to be able to identify many kinds of high performance foreign military aircraft, undergo additional physical examinations and testing to be able to react with split second timing and reflexes in high stress situations. Plus they are accountable to a chain of command that follows strict rules. Consequently they are less likely to make observational errors or concoct fabrications. Regardless of what Air Force they are with, they are some of the best witnesses possible.

j.r.
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You are right. We fighter pilots are totally awesome, and those are the weak sisters. The rest are totally awesome squared, and some are totally awesome cubed. In fact, I still blush when someone points out how totally awesome we were.

Back to reality. I have a few observations. Please note that these are from my sphere of knowledge at the time and locations when I was in. Stuff changes all the time.

One of the things that has been bandied about here is that military pilots are trained observers and that their word is totally true. I have never seen a course of study along the lines of a college course titled 'Observation of Things in the Air and on the Ground - 101'. I have never heard from anyone that has ever experienced it. I don't know where it would be taught, certainly not in Undergraturate Pilot Traing (UPT). The time is filled to capacity with just learning to fly & associated academics. The most logical place would be at the school learning to fly the operational airplane and the mission (RTU), but it really won't fit there either.
Yeah, while in Europe we needed to know all the Soviet Bloc aircraft & fin flashes (and to a lesser degree, the allied equivalent) plus the Soviet combat vehicles and naval boats, but it was specialized observation knowledge and was learned mostly by reading and some briefings, much like local and area procedures.

Probably the most accurate model for that and for mission capability, would be the apprentice system. The new guy learns from the old head. The newer the pilot was, the more he was protected and kept out of trouble, that, by following his leader, an older more experienced pilot.

So to the point. Observational capabilities depend on the experience of the man making them. The newer the guy is, the less believable, the older he is, the more believable. Experience is everything. But everyone makes mistakes, no matter how experienced. There is no magic shield that ensures total accuracy. The rest of your comments also depend highly on the experience level, Military pilots are for the most part, just like anyone else, except for the highly specialized training and the mindset.
Some of the best witnesses possible? Some are, some aren't. Not concoct fabrications? You're probably right, I've never seen it but who knows.

PD
 
UFO are REAL ...... evidence is there . I've seen them near airplanes on dozens of occasions, i even recorded them to prove it. I can prove UFO are real but ailens is another story.
 
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