Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

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The evidence is in Rudy's left blood stained shoe print that shows he could not have locked the door when he left - that leaves only Amanda and Raff who were there.

How does this show that he could not have locked the door? There are only two of Rudy's footprints in the hallway, yet six, both left and right, in the living room. How did Rudy get from opposite Amanda's room to the living room without leaving any prints, and how did he avoid leaving right footprints at all until the living area? If footprints are missing in the hallway, likely where half the police force of Perugia walked, then why can't other footprints which were outside the door have been destroyed by the constant tyraffic in and out of Meredith's room, just like his right one obviously was, unless you are going to try and claim he hopped down the hallway.
 
You are jumping to conclusions again. Because I am looking at significant events one at a time does not mean that I rest my position on RS's odd statement about the 'break-in'.

'The case is very simple'. It's possibly the most hotly disputed case in recent history. Do you ever look at Maundy Gregory's site? He strikes me as a sharp and thoughtful commentator yet he doesn't embrace your version of events.

Maundy Gregory is a straight-down-the-line guilter, putting the same bogus case as the others - the only thing in his favour is he uses more moderate language and tone than on PMF. His latest piece (dated 8 August) is entitled: "Knox/Sollecito: How to spot a fake burglary", and is full of half-truths and unsupported claims to shore up the collapsing prosecution case. There is no way the break-in was anything but genuine.

I find your position baffling. It's obvious to me that the case is heading towards exoneration for AK and RS, and the "evidence" that they had any part in the crime is disappearing. By rights, there needs to be a massive scandal when the truth becomes official - because the Perugian authorities have committed a monstrous travesty.

Now it seems there are people trying to back off from the extreme claims on which the whole prosecution case was based, by making out that even if AK and RS were not the killers, then they (and not the police/Mignini) are still to blame for their own situation. I'm not interested by people like Maundy Gregory making excuses for the police and prosecution, using the same lies that railroaded the pair in the first place - I just want to see the truth writ large, and the people responsible for the debacle held to account.
 
I think you deserve a scenario so . . . RG lives a few hundred yards from RS. If AK - as a 'prank' - saw him in the street and told him MK was alone and secretly fancied him she would feel terrible about the resulting catastrophe. I can't 'prove' this but this level of involvement fits with their behaviour.

I know you only tossed this out with little thought, but it suffers from a serious flaw, one that the prosecution never actually seemed to address.

At the time of the murder, Amanda was hardly able to speak Italian, remember that she required an Interpreter on the night of the 5th, and that she wasn't able to read the "Confessions" which were in Italian. Rudy on the other hand has little to no grasp of English.

As a result, any narrative that requires these two people to be able to communicate on more than a very basic level is doomed to failure from the start since such communications were impossible.
 
I'm interested in you reasoning here, in characterising the 'totally innocent' position as similar to or the same as a religious approach.
I actually think anyone who allows for a reasonable possibility for guilt or any involvement is taking a 'religious' approach. Here's why: it follows the path of revelation, followed by faith. The truth is 'revealed' through the fact of the prosecution, the judgement of the court, and the Motivation document. Faith comes into play whenever exculpatory evidence comes to light, and the guilter has to reject the most straightforward, simple, and connected (to other bits of behaviour and scientific fact) theory in favour of an extremely unlikely and complicated one.
It reminds me of dinosaur fossils being considered a test of our faith.
The majority of pro-acquittal posters-who-are-also-convinced of innocence, have no text of revealed truth (a la the Massei document)- the C & V report wouldn't count, as it merely confirmed (by independent experts with no agenda) the conclusions that many of them came to on their own through extensive consideration of the evidence. The approach has been (on the most part) evidence and logic-led and this doesn't jibe with a 'religious' approach.
I think what you're implicitly doing here is comparing an almost radical skeptic position with a normal skeptic position. Pro-innocence positions are 'normally' skeptical- they withhold judgement until all the facts are considered impartially. Radical skepticism on the other hand requires one to consider all
logically-possible but extremely implausible theories, and requires one to keep them open as 'possibilities' unless they can be actively ruled out.
The first is a very good methodology, and is appropriate within the context of criminal proceedings. The latter is not.
I teach philosophy to undergrads and this is very difficult for them to grasp- one of the first topics on the syllabus is Descartes' 'evil demon' argument, a radically skeptic argument that has a very specific purpose in Descartes' methodological approach to metaphysics. After they learn this, they try and apply it to other philosophical topics, but in doing so forget it's instrumentality, and it's lack of productivity (in itself) in truth-seeking.

Great post, bri1.
 
That's an excellent question, one that touches the central problem I have encountered in debating those who believe Amanda and Raffaele are guilty.

These debating partners, for the most part, lack even the most rudimentary understanding of criminal investigations, police procedures, and the circumstances that give rise to wrongful convictions. But worse that that - they don't think they need to learn. They assume that common sense is an adequate basis for assessing how innocent vs. guilty suspects behave, whether innocent people falsely incriminate themselves when they are under pressure, etc.

I have posted this essay before, but this seems like a good time to post it again:

How do ordinary, innocent people behave when they stumble onto a crime scene? Following is an example from a murder that took place in Washington State.

Jerry Heimann was a 64-year-old man in Everett, Washington. He lived with his mother, who had Alzheimer's disease, as well as his mother's caregiver and her children, who lived in the basement. On April 13, 2001, the caregiver persuaded some friends of her teenage daughter to kill Jerry so they could loot his bank account. They stabbed and bludgeoned him to death, threw his body in the woods, loaded his furniture into a rented truck, and vacated the house after cleaning up the kitchen where they had attacked him. They left the old lady to fend for herself.

Jerry had prior reason to doubt the goodwill of his mother's caregiver. Just a week or two earlier, she had stolen $1,800 from him by forging a check. Jerry called his son Greg and told him about this, and Greg advised him to fire the caregiver, but Jerry did not do so. Nor did he call the police.

A few days after the murder, Greg and his wife flew in for a visit they had been planning for months. Jerry had said he would meet them at the airport, and they were expecting him. They waited for three hours before taking a cab to Jerry's house.

When they got there, the place was dark and no one seemed to be home. They looked around and managed to get in through a window. The first thing they noticed was that most of the furniture was gone. Then they found Jerry's mother, who was sitting in her wheelchair chewing on a piece of paper. She was hungry and dehydrated, and she had soiled her diapers. They got her cleaned up, fed, and put to bed. Then they got some groceries and prepared a meal for themselves in the kitchen. After dinner, they decided to call around to find out if anyone knew where he was. That was when they noticed that all the phones in the house had been unplugged and the answering machine had been disconnected.

Numerous phone calls produced no report of anyone having seen Jerry in the past week. By then it was well into the evening and the couple was tired after a long day, so they went to bed. Greg awoke at 3 a.m. and couldn't get back to sleep, so he went downstairs to the kitchen. While he was sipping a cup of coffee, he suddenly noticed blood on the back of the chair next to him. In fact, there was quite a bit of blood spattered on it. Casting his eyes around the room, he noticed for the first time that there was blood on the walls, too. And there was blood running down the side of a trash can in the kitchen.

That was when Greg decided he should call the police... but, he didn't actually do so.

Instead he sat around until about 7:00 am, when he received a phone call from his mother, who lived in the area. She asked him to wait for her to get there before calling the police. So he did.

Shortly after 8:00 am, someone knocked on the door. It was a man from a government agency, Adult Protective Services. He had come to investigate an anonymous tip that the caregiver intended to harm Jerry Heimann. Greg described the situation to this individual, who immediately used his cell phone to call the police.

Why didn't Greg call the cops the minute he arrived at his father's house and found the furniture gone and the old lady in a state of neglect? Isn't that what any normal person would have done?

How could Greg and his wife prepare and eat dinner in a kitchen where there was blood spatter on the walls and furniture without even noticing it? And why, when he noticed the blood spatter, didn't Greg immediately call the police?

Anyone who sets out to analyze whether certain types of behavior are indicative of guilt should start by reading some crime stories to get a sense of what is "normal." The fact is that "normal" behavior is all over the map and very often seems ridiculously naive or clueless when viewed with the benefit of hindsight.

My source for the above is Mom said kill, a book by Burl Barer about the Heimann murder.

Interesting quote Charlie.

I've noticed that people project their own thinking and memories into others when trying to figure out what they are/were thinking. I've also noticed that when they do this, they are usually way off.

I think there are ways to understand the generalities about which a person is or is not thinking. My children, for example, would never look me in the eye when lying. However, they would also not look me in the eye when they were ashamed of something they did. It was not good to guess, because that could cause an even greater upset if you guessed and got it wrong. The best idea for this dad was to sit on the knowledge and wait for the other clues which would invariably followed. If I did it right, the child would laugh when discovered and admit all.

It's a very well known phenomena that people will not look you in the eye when they are lying. However people that know this characteristic will learn to look a person in the eye when they are lying, thus disguising their lie.

Getting back to my point. While you can understand certain things from the way people behave, you can never understand exactly what they are thinking. People are all different; their thinking reflects the sum total of their experiences which are different than the experiences of everybody else.
 
* * *

Do you think it strange that AK got an extra year for taking a knife to an unpremeditated murder ?:jaw-dropp

_____________________

Randy,

Raffaele was also convicted of transporting that knife. Both Amanda and Raffaele were sentenced to an additional 3 months in prison for that crime.

Amanda received an additional 1 year sentence because she---and only she--- was convicted of criminally defaming Patrick.

See: Massei Report, English Translation, page 393.

///
 
I'm interested in you reasoning here, in characterising the 'totally innocent' position as similar to or the same as a religious approach.
I actually think anyone who allows for a reasonable possibility for guilt or any involvement is taking a 'religious' approach. Here's why: it follows the path of revelation, followed by faith. The truth is 'revealed' through the fact of the prosecution, the judgement of the court, and the Motivation document. Faith comes into play whenever exculpatory evidence comes to light, and the guilter has to reject the most straightforward, simple, and connected (to other bits of behaviour and scientific fact) theory in favour of an extremely unlikely and complicated one.
It reminds me of dinosaur fossils being considered a test of our faith.
The majority of pro-acquittal posters-who-are-also-convinced of innocence, have no text of revealed truth (a la the Massei document)- the C & V report wouldn't count, as it merely confirmed (by independent experts with no agenda) the conclusions that many of them came to on their own through extensive consideration of the evidence. The approach has been (on the most part) evidence and logic-led and this doesn't jibe with a 'religious' approach.
I think what you're implicitly doing here is comparing an almost radical skeptic position with a normal skeptic position. Pro-innocence positions are 'normally' skeptical- they withhold judgement until all the facts are considered impartially. Radical skepticism on the other hand requires one to consider all
logically-possible but extremely implausible theories, and requires one to keep them open as 'possibilities' unless they can be actively ruled out.
The first is a very good methodology, and is appropriate within the context of criminal proceedings. The latter is not.
I teach philosophy to undergrads and this is very difficult for them to grasp- one of the first topics on the syllabus is Descartes' 'evil demon' argument, a radically skeptic argument that has a very specific purpose in Descartes' methodological approach to metaphysics. After they learn this, they try and apply it to other philosophical topics, but in doing so forget it's instrumentality, and it's lack of productivity (in itself) in truth-seeking.

Another excellent post and reflective of the common sense and general knowledge you bring to this forum.
 
Another excellent post and reflective of the common sense and general knowledge you bring to this forum.

Thanks, Onofarar :)
I have no expertise in any of the main areas called for in this discussion- biology (ToD, forensics), computing (alibi), communications (cell phone data).

But I am a philosopher, so I'm glad to add some comments about reasoning, critical thinking (on which I'm currently writing a book proposal), and logic when I can, as well as areas such as the philosophy of science, theory-building, and philosophy of neuroscience and psychology, which are my areas of expertise.
I think one of the main problems in this case has been a lack of understanding of how reasoning does work, and how reasoning should work. Massei's document displayed important logical errors that a five year old should be able to spot, IMO.
 
Deal Frees ‘West Memphis Three’ in Arkansas

Not all of the three welcomed the deal. During the 1994 trial, prosecutors offered to reduce Mr. Baldwin’s sentence if he pleaded guilty and testified against Mr. Echols. He refused then and initially resisted this deal, insisting as a matter of principle that he would not plead guilty to something he did not do.

But, he said, his refusing this deal would have meant Mr. Echols stayed on death row.

“This was not justice,” he said of the deal. “However, they’re trying to kill Damien.”

This is overwhelming. It's hard to even imagine what it is like to be freed after 18 years behind bars without guilt.
wm3.org



Bruce's new article:

What do the West Memphis Three and Amanda Knox Have in Common?
 
Oh just be honest with us "Mark" we all know you are busy working on a follow up to Monster of Perugia! PI Machine is never wrong! He is stalking all of us and he has the facts!

LOL. Actually my planned trip/project crashed and burned to a crisp. I am stuck here and you are stuck with me. Oh well.
 
Thanks, Onofarar :)
I have no expertise in any of the main areas called for in this discussion- biology (ToD, forensics), computing (alibi), communications (cell phone data).

But I am a philosopher, so I'm glad to add some comments about reasoning, critical thinking (on which I'm currently writing a book proposal), and logic when I can, as well as areas such as the philosophy of science, theory-building, and philosophy of neuroscience and psychology, which are my areas of expertise.
I think one of the main problems in this case has been a lack of understanding of how reasoning does work, and how reasoning should work. Massei's document displayed important logical errors that a five year old should be able to spot, IMO.

I have commented several times on your simply marvelous posts. Now I know why I find them so insightful. Thanks for your contributions.
 
what evidence would cause us to change our minds

As I've said the total guilt or total innocent positions are akin to a religious approach.
It seems to me that you are confusing a high certainly with lack of falsifiability. My confidence is over 99% that the two are innocent, but I have repeatedly pointed to the knife and putative semen stain as, among other things, evidence that could make me change my position.
 
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I didn't realize how close to the other blood this was:
 

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Four Navy guys got "played for fools"

Not the Amanda case.
tsig,

Who's Amanda? I thought we were discussing the Raffaele Sollecito case. Seriously, the Norfolk Four is a good example of false confession/accusation.
 
Fine;

Further evidence of Rep 183 being a shoe print not a bare footprint. This is a pic taken from The Biologist's power point presented in court.
 

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