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Origin of the paint that was found as red-gray chips - any ideas?

A very nontechnical piece to add here: in an email to me, Kevin Ryan said he has in his personal possession both the paint and the thermitic dust. He said they are totally different. I quoted him in my Gage rebuttal videos:

part 11a thermitics in the dust http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LYja1f-Tefc
part 11b thermitics in the dust continued http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mb8Q1UYdW4I&feature=related

Wish we could look at both samples, don't you?

It seems that the perimeter columns at least were painted with Tnemec, core columns probably too (NIST wasn't totally sure about that!), but the floor truss joists were painted with LaClede paint, a different formulation.
Now, the perimeter columns (and spandrels) are the emblematic WTC steel - their shape had been visible for 30 years on the facades, and the core columns have the impressive size and girth, so you'd expect 99% of all the steel members preserved to this day, that Ryan could get samples from, to be tnemec-painted. No doubt Ryan has a sample of tnemec, and we already know the chips aren't tnemec.

We would have to find steel from floor joists and test their paint. That would be terrific. However, these elements are feeble and unimpressive in comparison, and hardly anyone would care to preserve these.
 
Hey can somebody comment on fig. 29 in the 'Active Thermitic' paper as to the DSC traces of the chip and the Tillotson sample? p25 of the paper

Why do Harrit/Jones claim this makes the chip look like nanothermite, and why is that claim wrong?

thx

As Chris Mohr points out in his part 11a/b, the graphs are not similar:

They plot power per gram of energy release versus ignition temperature: The ignition point of one of the Harrit sample is about 100K lower than that of the Tillotson nano-thermite, and it reacts with twice the power.

In addition, the one chip they picked for selection with Tillotson was, despite being so different, the one with the least difference; the other chips, as can be seen in Figure 19 of the paper, ignited at even lower temps with even more power.

This is very much like drawing an elefant and claiming it looks just like a drawing of a camel. No, it doesn't.



Please not that the higher power of the chips does not make the paint weapon's grade! It is probably just a function of them reacting with ambient air, and of course of the fact that the chips contain more energy per mass unit that thermite (on account of the reactant being organic binder; most organic materials beat thermite easily in terms of energy content).
 
That Harrit whitepaper adds very little to the "original" paper at Bentham, except for detailing what tnemec is. Of course we already know that chips a-d are not tnemec, so he is on the wrong boat for most of the time.

On page 6, he false claims that "Magnesium was never observed". His own Fi.6, an XEDS of chip e (MEK lalala...) has an unlabelled peak at about 1.25keV, which is quite likely the K-alpha level of Mg. The same peak is found in the XEDS that Jones had done on actual tnemec from a WTC column; I showed that in my blog (fig. C).

Now I disagree with you that Cr and Sr have readily visible peaks in Harrit's Fig. 5: He puts the labels where he would expect to see peaks, but they aren't really discernibly there, except for one possible Cr peak. However he magnified only one of the 4 XEDS charts for chips a-d. Going back to the Bentham paper, Figure 7 has tiny tiny blips at 5.4keV for chips b and d, which corresponds with k-alpha of Chromium. a and c are practically flat there. Unfortunately, those spectra end at 10keV, so we don't know if any Strontium peaked beyond 14keV.

Unfortunately, I am not convinced that Harrit's data points to LaClede standard paint - the Cr-signal is woefully weak, and the Sr non-existent for all I can tell.

Maybe Sunstealer can shed a bit more light here.

As usually, your skepticism is quite useful even for me, Oystein;) When I started to collect some support for my hypothesis that chips (a) to (d) were particles of the Laclede primer paint, I overlooked that the expected positions of chromium and strontium peaks in Harrit's whitepaper, Fig. 5, were not marked by the XEDS device, but by Harrit himself. This was my mistake. Therefore, I am taking back my claim that peaks of these two metals are visible in Fig. 5, except of the peak of chromium at 5.4 keV.

On the other hand, I still feel that I am (we are) on the right trail, since main expected elements (Al, Fe, Si, O and C) of the Laclede paint are clearly visible in the XEDS spectra of the chips (a) to (d) and this paint was applied in quite high amounts in WTC towers.

For the Laclede paint, we can expect about ten times less of chromium than of the main metals (Fe, Si, Al). Since I am not able to find quickly some easily available info about relative intensities of XEDS peaks of various metals, Sunstealer's help is necessary here.

Up to now, I have these clues and remarks in this regard.

1) It is written in the preface of ASTM E1508 - 98(2008) norm (Standard Guide for Quantitative Analysis by Energy-Dispersive Spectroscopy, http://www.astm.org/Standards/E1508.htm) that (X)EDS is a suitable technique for routine quantitative analysis of elements that are1) heavier than or equal to sodium in atomic weight, 2) present in tenths of a percent or greater by weight, and 3) occupying a few cubic micrometres, or more, of the specimen. Therefore, we can not expect that XEDS of Harrit's chips (smaller than few cubic micrometers) can give us good and reliable results about the content of chromium and strontium, present in less than ca 5 % level. Does anybody possess this norm? (It costs 40 bucks:o)

2) Harrit gives me another indirect clue how it could be with chromium XEDS signals. He estimates in his whitepaper (Table 1) that there is about 34 % of zinc chromate in dry Tnemec Red Primer. Atomic weight of chromium is 52, molar mass of zinc chromate is 181, so we can expect something about 34x52/181 ~ 10 wt% of Cr in the sample. At the same time, there is (very roughly) about 30-40 wt% of iron oxides in the Tmenec. Atomic weight of iron is 56, molar mass of iron oxide is 160, so we can expect something about 20 - 30 wt% of iron in the Tmenec. Since we know (again thanks to Sunstealer) that chip (e) was a particle of this Tnemec, we can again take a look to its XEDS spectrum. Chromium peak at 5.4 keV is just a very little in the spectrum of chip (e) comparing it to the Fe peaks, so I can estimate from this that relative intensity of chromium signal can be quite low. Therefore, we can not expect that this element can be proven/determined conclusively in the concentrations about 5 % and less (as in the case of Laclede paint).

3) Henryco in his analysis of red chips http://www.darksideofgravity.com/marseille_gb.pdf has not detected any chromium at 5.4 keV.

4) Since we do not have any red chips from the WTC dust, we should perhaps follow a comparatively easier way how to prove that red chips (a) to (d) were particles of Laclede primer paint. We (I mean you guys in US) should collect some samples of the red paint from WTC1/WTC2 trusses and measure its XEDS spectra, looking if they are similar to the spectra of chips (a) to (d). In this regard, I repeat my former proposal in a slightly altered manner: If you send me some samples of this paint, we can do some research on it. First of all, we in our institute could easily arrange some DSC measurements of the Laclede paint (both under inert atmosphere and under air) to find if their thermal behavior resembles to the behavior of the Harrit's chips. We could also easily do some microscopic research on the unburned and burned paint. (Later on, we can even write some short communication on our findings and publish it, let say, in The Open Chemical Physics Journal (Bentham Press):D
 
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Where can be such samples found?

It seems that even parts of WTC steel floor elements might be stored in Hangar 17 in JFK airport: http://gokill.com/2009/12/10/911-pictures-of-whats-inside-hanger-17-jfk-international-airport/.

Here http://www.firefighternation.com/slideshow/wtc-steel-spans-county-various-memorials it is written that there are many hundreds of requests for samples/pieces of WTC steel, and Port Authority of New York and New Jersey plans to dispatch more than 1,100 artifacts to fire and police departments, schools and churches, museums and military bases in every state and seven countries beyond.

If anybody plans to use WTC steel for building of some 9/11 monuments and memorials, I would expect that he would prefer parts of columns (not parts of trusses) since they simply look better and more monumental:rolleyes: So we (you in the US) still have some chance to get some pieces with Laclede paint:p
 
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(I meant that such samples of WTC floor joist should still be available in that Hangar 17, protected against further corrosion caused by the rain and so. Btw, I quite frequently encounter problems with a net connection to JREF site from both my computers - any advice from IT people?)
 
I get the same in the USA so I doubt the problem is at your end.

Yea, the site seems to go down for me a few times a day for a few minutes at at time. I suspect it's the CIA searching truther's posts for clues to their identities.
 
Hi Ivan,

I think we should not believe too much at this time that we identified chips a-d as LaClede paint. In fact, I tend to believe this is not the paint we are looking for just yet.

However, I think you made a very important finding: More than one kind of red primer was used on the original WTC steel. This makes moot any clkaim that dissimilarities with Tnemec disprove paint.



As for connection problems: I often get these around 14:30 CET / 12:30 UT for about an hour
 
Is it not true to say that the chips that Jones has found are composed of nano-sized particles almost exclusively. Are the samples of paint tested by other researchers made almost exclusively of nano-sized particles ?
 
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Btw, I quite frequently encounter problems with a net connection to JREF site from both my computers - any advice from IT people?)

I first noticed the problem around the time the 'project home 2011' scammer was being slapped around. I just figured it's a half-baked denial of service attack.
 
Is it not true to say that the chips that Jones has found are composed of nano-sized particles almost exclusively.

No, that is not true. The kaolinite (aluminium silicate) crystals (the plate-like structures that often com in stacks of several plates) shown in fig. 8 of the Harrit e.al. paper are typically a bit wider than 1 micron in all four dust samples, thus slightly larger than "nano-sized".

I believe that the brighter white and smaller crytsals in those images are hematite; those are indeed nano-sized. That is not a sign of high-tech. IIRC, hematite is found in nature in particles of that size, and has as such been used since long before the industrial age.

Are the samples of paint tested by other researchers made almost exclusively of nano-sized particles ?

Since the answer to your first question was "no", this follow-up is moot.

However, I am at this time not aware that anyone analysed (or specified) the LaClede paint pigments adnd determined their size.

As for paints in general, we have long since established that nano-sized particles have been in general use for a long time and are nothing unusual. You can buy nano-sized pigments in bulk amounts at reasonable prices from ordinary businesses.
 
No, that is not true. The kaolinite (aluminium silicate) crystals (the plate-like structures that often com in stacks of several plates) shown in fig. 8 of the Harrit e.al. paper are typically a bit wider than 1 micron in all four dust samples, thus slightly larger than "nano-sized".

I believe that the brighter white and smaller crytsals in those images are hematite; those are indeed nano-sized. That is not a sign of high-tech. IIRC, hematite is found in nature in particles of that size, and has as such been used since long before the industrial age.



Since the answer to your first question was "no", this follow-up is moot.

However, I am at this time not aware that anyone analysed (or specified) the LaClede paint pigments adnd determined their size.

As for paints in general, we have long since established that nano-sized particles have been in general use for a long time and are nothing unusual. You can buy nano-sized pigments in bulk amounts at reasonable prices from ordinary businesses.

So it is evident from this that the Jones samples are nano-sized or within a small fraction of it which means the particles are almost certainly man made via high-tech..

We have no reason to believe that the paticles of paint will turn out to be composed of nano-sized particles. It should be easy for you guys to check out as it seems to be a primary interest for y'all
 
Chromium and strontium peaks in Fig. 5

Again some correction, since I have not read carefully enough Harrit's whitepaper (in a hurry to come with some breaking news here:rolleyes:)

When I look back at the Fig. 5, there is no reason why positions of two strontium peaks should be marked by Harrit himself in this XEDS graph, since Tnemec red paint did not contain any strontium;) (therefore this was not one of the elements he was looking for)

In fact, Harrit wrote in the caption of this Fig. "The same spectrum as in frame (a) with intensity (vertical) and horizontal scales
expanded. Minute signals in level with the noise are observed from sulfur, calcium, chromium and strontium." This could mean that both chromium and strontium in Fig. 5 (chip (a)) was probably marked by the DSC machine, not by Harrit. Although these peaks (especially strontium peaks) are not clearly visible in the noise, the device was probably able to detect them.

If this is right, at least chip (a) contained some chromium and strontium and can be particle of red Laclede primer. (Spectra of other chips (c) to (d) were not expanded and discussed in the whitepaper.)

Any additional info from Sunstealer or other expert on XEDS (e.g. its sensitivity for chromium and strontium) is really welcome:cool:
 
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So it is evident from this that the Jones samples are nano-sized or within a small fraction of it which means the particles are almost certainly man made via high-tech..

We have no reason to believe that the paticles of paint will turn out to be composed of nano-sized particles. It should be easy for you guys to check out as it seems to be a primary interest for y'all

What did you not understand about "hematite is found in nature in particles of that [nano-]size, and has as such been used since long before the industrial age"?

Kaolinite likewise is commonly mined and occurs naturally in crytal sizes as seen in Harrit's paper. They are nothing unusual. These particle sizes are NOT the resukt of high-tech production, but of natural processes with some low-tech refining, as has commonly been done all over the world by paint producers for centuries, of not tens of thousands of years (ochres used in caves by stone age people contain both hematite and kaolinite.)
 
...
In the already mentioned NIST document http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/NISTNCSTAR1-6BDraft.pdf, Appendix A (at the end, p. 112), I have just found a specification of the paint used for protection of WTC1/WTC2 floor trusses.

Its declared composition is:
Pigment
Iron oxide 55 % (probably wt%)
Aluminum Silicate 41 %
Strontium Chromate 4 %
Total Pigment 100 %

Vehicle
Unmodified Epoxy Amine 45 %
Deionized Water and Amine 55 %
Total Vehicle 100 %
...
...
For the Laclede paint, we can expect about ten times less of chromium than of the main metals (Fe, Si, Al). Since I am not able to find quickly some easily available info about relative intensities of XEDS peaks of various metals, Sunstealer's help is necessary here.

Up to now, I have these clues and remarks in this regard.

1) It is written in the preface of ASTM E1508 - 98(2008) norm (Standard Guide for Quantitative Analysis by Energy-Dispersive Spectroscopy, http://www.astm.org/Standards/E1508.htm) that (X)EDS is a suitable technique for routine quantitative analysis of elements that are1) heavier than or equal to sodium in atomic weight, 2) present in tenths of a percent or greater by weight, and 3) occupying a few cubic micrometres, or more, of the specimen. Therefore, we can not expect that XEDS of Harrit's chips (smaller than few cubic micrometers) can give us good and reliable results about the content of chromium and strontium, present in less than ca 5 % level. Does anybody possess this norm? (It costs 40 bucks:o)
...

Let's see.
According to specification, LaClede steel paint is 4% Strontium Chromate.
Strontium Chromate is SrCrO4. Molar mass of SrCrO4 is 87.62 + 52 + 4x16 = 203,62 Strontium is 87.62/203,62 = 43% by weight of its chromate, or 43%x4% = 1.7% by weight of the pigments. Chromium is 52/203,62 * 4% = 1.0% of the mass of all pigments. Oxygen another 64/203,62 * 4% = 1.3% Similarly: Iron Oxide (Fe2O3) is 30,1% oxygen and 69,9% iron, and (multiplied by 55%) provides 16.5% oxigen and 38.5% iron to all pigments Aluminum Silicate is Al2Si2O5(OH)4 That adds 8.6% Aluminium, 8.9% Silicium and 22.9% Oxygen to the pigments. Sum of elements in the pigments thus: O: 40.7% Fe: 38.5% Si: 8.9% Al: 8.6% Sr: 1,7% Cr: 1.0% (H: 0.6%) The binder would mainly add C and O, and dilute the metals. Now, I don't know how to interprete the heights of the peaks. It is my understanding that mass or count of elements corresponds to peak height only roughly. Harrit's spectra show Si-peaks just slightly higher than Al, which matches the above mass proportions perfectly, but why does he find "more" S and Ca than Sr? S in the binder?
 
Thank you for your valuable calculations, Oystein:o)

We should perhaps also summarize atomic numbers and (approximate) atomic weights of the elements of interest, since XEDS signals are rouhgly proportional to atomic numbers (e.g. http://www.polymat.lth.se/courses/microchar/Mikroanalys_L5_Quanti_XEDS_Kimberly.pdf)

O 8, 16
Fe 26, 56
Si 14, 28
Al 13, 27
Sr 38, 88
Cr 24, 52
C 6, 12
(H 1, 1)
(N 7, 14) (nitrogen was another chemical element quite abundantly present in the Laclede primer binder, since it was an epoxide resin containing many amino groups as crosslink sites - it must be also added to the overal composition, athough it is not detected by XEDS)


So why are strontium peaks in region over 10 KeV in Fig. 5 (whitepaper of Harrit) marked in XEDS of a chip (a), although invisible? I have no access to chemical journals from home so I depend on some googling now.

Up to now, I found this paper https://www.corrdefense.org/Academia Government and Industry/XXI-BROWN-TUCKER.pdf , in which strontium chromate was used as some kind of coating. There is a Fig. 4 with a XEDS spectrum containing also strontium and chromium signals, in the region 0 to 20 KeV. Although this picture is of a very bad quality, I can judge from this that Sr signal at cca 1.8 KeV is much, much stronger than Sr signals at ca 14.2 and 15.8 KeV. Simultaneously, this strong signal at 1.8 KeV could be hidden in Fig. 5 of Harrit's whitepaper, since there are very strong signals of Al and Si in this region. Perhaps, Harrit's device found this comparatively strong Sr signal, but marked only those very weak Sr signals at 14.2 and 15.8 KeV. I can also judge from the Fig. 4 (link above) that chromium signal at 5.4 KeV is significantly weaker than the strontium signal at ca 1.8 KeV (both elements are present in the same molar amounts in strontium chromate). This is in accordance with the fact that strontium has a higher atomic number than chromium.

Of course, it does not answer your question, but it could provide some hints why are Sr signals in Fig. 5 (Harrit) invisible (if the chip (a) is a particle of Laclede paint).
 
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Concerning calcium: this element was detected by XEDS not only in the chip (a) (where it can be present as an accidental contaminant even in the freshly broken surface), but also in those microspheres (Harrit et al. and HenryCo as well). Calcium (as a component of contaminants) was not present only as gypsum (calcium sulfate) in the WTC dust but also as salts and oxides originating from the concrete. This could be a reason why calcium was found so frequently in the particles, whereas sulfur peaks are seen only in some figures.

Concerning sulfur in the Laclede binder: no, there should be no sulfur in this epoxide.
 
Concerning calcium: this element was detected by XEDS not only in the chip (a) (where it can be present as an accidental contaminant even in the freshly broken surface), but also in those microspheres (Harrit et al. and HenryCo as well). Calcium (as a component of contaminants) was not present only as gypsum (calcium sulfate) in the WTC dust but also as salts and oxides originating from the concrete. This could be a reason why calcium was found so frequently in the particles, whereas sulfur peaks are seen only in some figures.

Concerning sulfur in the Laclede binder: no, there should be no sulfur in this epoxide.
 

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