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Superconductivity at room temperature??

Thanks Johan, this is a useful way of moving forward.
Let me clarify one point: it doesn't matter whether the "current" is made of individual charges that move "all the way". Charge is charge.
Are you now claiming that there are no charge-carriers within a superconductor?
Consider the "charge excess" at a contact with metal on the left and SC on the right.
What is the sign of this charge excess?
You could,
Could? Do you have this occurring or do you not have this occurring within a superconductor?
for example, have the following:

a) a new charge is injected into the left side of the excess
OK!
b) a previously-static charge gets bumped out of the right side
What “right side” and how is it “bumped”?
c) the bumped-out charge cruises through the SC at constant speed.

That'd be fine with Maxwell, but it's different than what you state above.
I do not follow? What is different from what? Please explain more clearly.
I agree that this is not what happened in the Van de Graaff example (there the static and moving charges were physically separated and identifiably different) but in actual materials it's irrelevant.
So you admit that the van de Graaff example is wrong and does not apply? Why is the difference between static and moving charges irrelevant in your model?
Again, Maxwell's Equations care about the total fields j and rho, not about subcomponents of them.
You are vague. Both j and rho are assumed to exist at every point. This is a mathematical abstraction to fit calculus. The reality is, however, that charge-carriers are discrete and that this discreteness must be taken into account when modelling the motion of charge through a material. If you do not accept my initial formulation, you must reword it to be explicit. A word like “could” is meaningless.

In terms of what you have now posted, I will alter your standpoint to read as follows:
1. Your standpoint:
You argue that the charge-carriers within a superconductor are “free” charge-carriers which can be accelerated when there is an electric-field within the superconductor; and that when an equilibrium current flows, the applied electric field is cancelled by the accumulation of charge carriers at the target contact that leaves opposite charges behind at the injection contact. The current that flows is then generated by charges which are injected through the positive charges at the injection contact and that each of these injected charges “bumps” an existing, stationary charge on the other side of the positively charged layer so that each “bumped” charge-carrier moves all the way with a constant speed through the superconductor, and then through the negatively charged layer at the target contact into the target contact; without any change in the cancellation of the applied electric field by the oppositely charged layers at the two contacts.

My own standpoint is adjusted, owing to the post of Reality Check to read as follows:
2. My standpoint:
I argue that free charge-carriers that can be accelerated by an applied electric field can NEVER cancel an applied electric field within a conductor while they transport a current through the material: This is always the case whether the charge carriers experience resistance to their motion or no resistance to their motion. Therefore I conclude that free charge-carriers that can be accelerated can never be responsible for equilibrium superconduction (an equilibrium current) which requires charge carriers to move without an electric-field being present and without generating an increase in entropy. There must thus be another mechanism that does not require charge-carriers which are free so that they can be accelerated.

If you do not agree with my new reformulation of your standpoint, then please reformulate it as you see it; but without using terms like “could”. State clearly: do excess charge-carriers accumulate at the target contact leaving opposite charges behind at the injection contact when a superconducting current is flowing in order to cancel the applied electric field within the superconductor?: This is what I understand from your previous posts. Are you now rejecting what you have posted?
 
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Are you now claiming that there are no charge-carriers within a superconductor?

No. I said nothing like that.

Y'know, I just wrote up, and deleted, another whole explanation of Maxwell's Equations and how they interact with charge excesses. But I don't see it having any impact on someone whose (apparently) honest interpretation of my last post included "there are no charge-carriers within a superconductor".

Try this, Johan. Forget superconductors for a moment. They are too complicated for the simple mistakes you are making.

Consider two ordinary conductors---say, copper (low resistivity) and iron (high resistivity). Consider three blocks of metal as follows:

Code:
========::::::::::========
=iron===::copper::==iron==
========::::::::::========
========::::::::::========

---> constant current ----->

Given j and the resistivities, can you find the electric field inside the metals?

Given the electric field, can you take the divergence (hint: draw a Gaussian surface around either metal-metal boundary) and find the internal charge density?

Does this violate Maxwell's Equations?

Is it physically impossible?

Is there static charge anywhere with current going past it?
 
No. I said nothing like that.

Y'know, I just wrote up, and deleted, another whole explanation of Maxwell's Equations and how they interact with charge excesses. But I don't see it having any impact on someone whose (apparently) honest interpretation of my last post included "there are no charge-carriers within a superconductor".
I asked YOU whether this is what you are arguing, since you said that one must only take continuous charges into account; not charge-carriers which each has its own identical charge. To quote you “Let me clarify one point: it doesn't matter whether the "current" is made of individual charges that move "all the way". Charge is charge.”

The problem I am experiencing with you is that you jump from one standpoint to another. Furthermore, you post arguments which you know are not valid: For example, you posted the van de Graaff beam pipe to explain what happens within a superconductor. When I pointed out that this argument is flawed, you came back and admitted that when you wrote it up you already knew that is flawed. In other words you were dishonest. Unless you only realised that there are obvious differences after I have pointed them out. This would mean that you do not know what you are talking about.

And you refuse to answer questions: For example in my previous post I asked what is the sign of excess charge which you claim must be at the injection contact of a superconductor. You did not answer. I asked you what right side is the stationary charge-carrier you claim to be there and how is it “bumped” by the injected charge. You did not answer.

I have asked you time and again to potulate in terms of REAL physics how an applied electric field is cancelled within a superconducting element that forms part of a circuit having a battery and components which are not also superconducting. You keep on coming back with vague arguments that supposedly do not violate Maxwell’s equations. I can generate many solutions for Maxwell’s equations which are mathematically self-consistent but do not model real physics. The most obvious example is a coherent wave function of infinite length. Such a light wave cannot physically exist. It is only useful to define a function space within which these mathematically possible but physically impossible solutions can be superposed to generate real solutions subject to the actual boundary conditions that really exist and thus determine the coefficients when doing a Fourier expansion.

I have pointed out that we have opposing views when it comes to the cancellation of an applied electric field within a superconducting element within a circuit. You claim that the superconducting charge carriers can be accelerated by an applied electric field when there is such a field present, and that these charge-carriers can cancel an applied electric field by generating excess charge at the contacts. I say that this is not possible. I tried to formulate our opposing standpoint in terms of what you have posted on this thread. And I asked you to change the formulation I ascribed to you if you do not agree with it. Is it not a reasonable request?

At this stage we do not yet have to prove who is correct. This will come after we have agreed on what our standpoints are. Once defined, we THEN analyze the two standpoints in terms of logic; and if we cannot reach an agreement, the next step will be to devise an actual experiment that can decide who has been correct and who not. So please, formulate your standpoint!

Try this, Johan. Forget superconductors for a moment. They are too complicated for the simple mistakes you are making.
Which “mistakes”. In my opinion you are making simple mistakes.

Superconductors complicated? I thought the low temperature superconductors have been well understood for more than 50 years: So why would it be complicated to formulate (without at first needing to prove it) how an electric-field is cancelled while charge-carriers, which can be accelerated, transfer charge through it? If you cannot formulate the mechanism in simple terms, it means that you cannot explain it at all. PERIOD!

I have also hoped that we can begin to argue physics without insulting each other’s physics knowledge. But it seems this is impossible for you to do. But PLEASE let us try!

Consider two ordinary conductors---say, copper (low resistivity) and iron (high resistivity). Consider three blocks of metal as follows:

Code:
========::::::::::========
=iron===::copper::==iron==
========::::::::::========
========::::::::::========

---> constant current ----->

Given j and the resistivities, can you find the electric field inside the metals?
Of course it is given at each point within a material as E=(rho)*j. You can then integrate to find the resistance and voltage of the whole element.
Given the electric field, can you take the divergence (hint: draw a Gaussian surface around either metal-metal boundary) and find the internal charge density?
I will do this for you: The divergence of an applied conservative electric field while a current is flowing is ALWAYS ZERO. Go to the continuity equation: When a current is flowing through the element (in at one contact and out at the other), then within the element just as many charge-carriers ALWAYS flow into a point as flowing out of a point. Thus the divergence of the current is zero (div)j=0: Thus from E=(rho)*j, you must have that (div)E must also be zero everywhere. Thus, it is NOT possible to find a charge density within the material by taking the divergence.

This is the same result which you will find when there is no current flowing; since there is an equal amount of negative charges and positive charges within the element. When a current flows, through the element, just as many negative charges are injected at the injection-contact then are leaving at the target contact: So at any instance in time there is no net charge within the element.

Does this violate Maxwell's Equations?
Where have I claimed that zero divergence of charge within a conductor that transports a current violates Maxwell’s equations? Nowhere!
Is there static charge anywhere with current going past it?
Not one of the charge carrietrs can be static when they are free to be accelerated, and precisely for this reason they cannot cancel the applied electric field that accelerates them. If they could, this would violate Maxwell’s equations which are subject to the continuity equation being valid.

So I am asking you again: Please postulate how an applied electric-field is cancelled within a material, when it is transporting a current by means of charge-carriers which can be accelerated by an applied electric field?

What is more important is that you reformulate your standpoint if you do not agree with my formulation of it. Since I am, according to you, “wrong”, it should be easy for you to do so.
 
Superconductors complicated? I thought the low temperature superconductors have been well understood for more than 50 years

Yes. And? It was complicated 50 years ago, and it's still complicated.

So why would it be complicated to formulate (without at first needing to prove it) how an electric-field is cancelled while charge-carriers, which can be accelerated, transfer charge through it?

That's not the complicated part. That's the easy part. And it's quite simple. There are no magic voltage sources, only real voltage sources. An applied electric field changes the current, and continues to change the current, until the voltage drop outside the superconductor increases to match the applied voltage. And real voltage sources cannot increase infinitely. This equilibration between external voltage drop and voltage source can happen very quickly in the case of a small piece of superconductor attached to a voltage source and a large external resistance, or it may take minutes with a large voltage source and small external resistance. But that's all that's going on. THAT PART isn't complicated at all. It's the simple and direct result of zero resistance.

The complicated part is explaining how you GET zero resistance in the first place, along with the other properties of superconductors (like the Meissner effect) which are NOT the direct result of zero resistance.

I will do this for you: The divergence of an applied conservative electric field while a current is flowing is ALWAYS ZERO.

Obviously not. Trivial counterexample: a charging capacitor plate.

Go to the continuity equation: When a current is flowing through the element (in at one contact and out at the other), then within the element just as many charge-carriers ALWAYS flow into a point as flowing out of a point. Thus the divergence of the current is zero (div)j=0:

That's often (but not always) the case.

The irony here, though, is that one of the cases where this IS the case is during a ramp of a superconducting magnet. Because the current is non-divergent, the continual increase in the current must be happening everywhere simultaneously, which requires that the charge carriers within the superconductor accelerate. Something you claimed couldn't happen.

So you've unwittingly contradicted yourself.

Thus from E=(rho)*j, you must have that (div)E must also be zero everywhere. Thus, it is NOT possible to find a charge density within the material by taking the divergence.

That's obviously false. If rho has a gradient, then div(E) can be nonzero even if div(j) is zero. That's simple vector calculus. You know, that thing that you said you understood and we didn't.

Oops. Yet another elementary mistake in a long string of elementary mistakes.

This is the same result which you will find when there is no current flowing; since there is an equal amount of negative charges and positive charges within the element.

That's not true. In fact, from the above vector calculus identity, it's obvious that net charge will exist wherever there is a change in the resistivity.
 
Of course it is given at each point within a material as E=(rho)*j. You can then integrate to find the resistance and voltage of the whole element.
I will do this for you: The divergence of an applied conservative electric field while a current is flowing is ALWAYS ZERO. Go to the continuity equation: When a current is flowing through the element (in at one contact and out at the other), then within the element just as many charge-carriers ALWAYS flow into a point as flowing out of a point. Thus the divergence of the current is zero (div)j=0: Thus from E=(rho)*j, you must have that (div)E must also be zero everywhere. Thus, it is NOT possible to find a charge density within the material by taking the divergence.

Really, Johan? Are you certain?

Let's use your own equations. What is div(rho*j)? It's not rho*div(j) - surely your math isn't that bad, is it? This is "elementary vector calculus" - you know, the thing you said you'd lost track of how many times you tried to teach us in this thread?

The correct formula is

div(rho*j) = rho*div(j) + j.(grad rho)

Now, what is grad rho in ben's diagram, Johan? I'll tell you - it's not zero at the interfaces, and its dot product with j is not zero either. Therefore, by your own equations, there is charge at the interfaces between copper and iron.

So you now have three choices:

a) declare you were wrong that E = (rho)*j

b) declare our math is wrong

c) admit you are wrong about never having charge densities when there's a steady current flowing, and come back with some brand new twisted wrongness.

Choice b) is very difficult, and it's clear from previous exchanges that you in fact understand that your math skills are essentially nonexistent. So, I predict either a) or c). We'll see!
 
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The correct formula is

div(rho*j) = rho*div(j) + j.(grad rho)

Now, what is grad rho in ben's diagram, Johan? I'll tell you - it's not zero at the interfaces, and its dot product with j is not zero either. Therefore, by your own equations, there is charge at the interfaces between copper and iron.

Sol is right, Johan. I picked this geometry for a reason.

You can see that he is right even without knowing math. In the left-hand (iron) block, E is large and pointing straight right. In the middle (copper) block, E is small and pointing straight right. In other words, E changes magnitude from one location to another. That means it has a nonzero derivative, which is the same thing (in a 1-D geometry) as a divergence.
 
Yes. And? It was complicated 50 years ago, and it's still complicated.
To you it is complicated since the model you are believing in, is complicated. As Bernd Matthias said about the BCS model: When you have equations stretching over half a page, the model is wrong: Nature is not so complicated. My model is simple and can be visualised: It explains everything that the BCS model supposedly explains. In addition it explains aspects which BCS cannot and never will be able to explain. For example, the dependence of the critical temperature on the doping density in over-doped p-type diamond; the dependence of the critical temperature on the doping level in the ceramics; the pressure dependence of the critical temperature in the ceramics; the presence of “stripes” in the ceramics; the presence of a pseudogap in the ceramics; etc. etc. According to Occam’s razor, it is clear which model should be preferred.
That's not the complicated part. That's the easy part. And it's quite simple. There are no magic voltage sources, only real voltage sources.
Up to here I agree with you: Especially that there can be no “magic” voltage sources and thus no “magic” electric-fields (take note Ben and Sol).
An applied electric field changes the current, and continues to change the current,
Are you now talking about the electric-field within the superconductor? I will assume that you do. If this is what you are arguing, you are TOTALLY wrong! The resistivity of a superconductor is zero, and therefore a current and an electric-field cannot be simultaneously present within such a material. Superconduction has NOTHING to do with the classical acceleration of charge-carriers within a material: The motion of charge-carriers is a quantum-mechanical effect.

Both my model and the BCS model agree on the latter aspect: Both models state that in order to obtain superconduction you must have a phase transformation so that the charge-carriers, which conduct above the critical temperature Tc, by acceleration and scattering, form a quantum-mechanical lowest-energy condensate within which the charge carriers cannot be accelerated and scattered. The charge-carriers within the condensate can thus not move in a classical manner as modelled by Newton’s laws. According to the BCS model, a charge that enters the superconductor must cause all the charge-carriers (Cooper pairs) within the superconductor to move coherently in a correlated manner (which must be nonsense for a single charge): If they do not move in this manner then according to BCS you will get scattering and thus a resistance. Therefore it is postulated that the momentum of a charge-carrier is supposedly given by the gradient of a phase-angle, and not by an electric-field accelerating charge-carriers in a classical manner. Unfortunately the latter is also nonsense.

How does BCS dovetail with Ben’s model that a single charge-carrier can be “bumped” to move with a constant speed from one contact to the other. To “bump” it the charge-carrier must scatter from an injected charge-carrier: But the BCS model specifically states that a Cooper pair cannot be “bumped” to gain or lose energy. Thus can you not see that what you and Ben are claiming is also violating the BCS model: Or are you agreeing with me that the BCS model is a model without the C?
until the voltage drop outside the superconductor increases to match the applied voltage.
How is the voltage-drop measured “outside”, and the applied voltage “inside”. This sentence is senseless. It is true that when ramping up a superconducting magnet loop, the voltage across the external resistive circuit increases with time until it reaches the full voltage that is being applied across the whole circuit. This is of course caused by a dynamic response of the whole circuit which includes the generation of a back-voltage owing to induction. Such a back-voltage need not be generated by any acceleration of charge-carriers within the superconductor; or by accumulation of MOVING charge-carriers.

You then go ahead and immediately violate you own statement by, in addition, arguing wrongly that charge-carriers can flow with zero resistance through a superconductor-element while an electric-field is present within this element. As you should know, resistivity can only be measured indirectly: i.e. experimentally it has been deduced that a superconductor has zero resistivity BECAUSE a current flows through a superconductor element WITHOUT an electric-field driving the current. Ohm’s law has been invoked to define this zero resistivity, as you all insist must be done; without giving an explanation why Ohm’s law does fit this scenario; as it does: Thus according to your own definition, zero resistivity is ONLY valid when the electric-field is ZERO and NOT when the electric-field is non-zero so that it can accelerate the charge-carriers.

When the electric-field is non-zero, AND a current is flowing, even without scattering of the charge-carriers, you can calculate a resistance R from Ohm’s law. This must be so since, even without scattering within a material-element, you still have essentially the same energy-dissipation when the charge-carriers, which are being accelerated through such a material-element, scatter within the target contact. For example, in the case of a vacuum diode it is said that the diode has a vacuum-resistance. Obviously a vacuum cannot have resistance. But a resistance is measured: The reason for this is that the accelerating charge-carriers can never cancel the applied electric field, and they therefore dissipate all their kinetic energy which they gained by acceleration within the anode: But dissipation of kinetic energy always equals resistance. Thus, even though you have no scattering while the charge-carriers move from the cathode (injecting contact) to the anode (target contact) you still dissipate essentially the same energy as you would have had if they were scattered within the material. Therefore you still measure a resistance. Obviously in this case, this resistance cannot be used to derive a “real” resistivity for the charge-carriers at positions between the injection contact and target contact: But this does not mean that there is no resistance and thus no energy dissipation as one must have in the case of a superconductor.

It is obvious that the voltage can be made smaller and smaller for the same current if one can find a way of increasing the density of the charge-carriers between the cathode and anode within a vacuum diode. This can be done by increasing the temperature of the cathode, and it is then indeed found that the voltage for the same current drops with increasing temperature: Is it possible to increase the density of the charge-carriers to become large enough so that the voltage, and thus the electric field between the cathode and anode, becomes zero? Not in a vacuum diode: But this is what I have achieved with my diamond experiment when sufficiently increasing the donor-dopant density just below the surface of the diamond. A point can then be reached when the density of electrons becomes high enough so that the voltage becomes zero. This, in turn demands that all the electrons between the cathode and anode must become stationary. So how can they now transfer a current; as is experimentally observed that they do? On this point my model and the BCS model again touch sides.

As you increase the density of charge-carriers the electric-field becomes less and the speed with which the electrons reach the anode decreases. Thus on average the kinetic energy of the electrons is decreasing as their density increases: This is in essence the same as cooling a gas by lowering the temperature. When the field becomes zero the electrons have no kinetic energy: They must thus form a condensate as predicted by Bose and Einstein: Note that at this point all the electrons must have the same energy, even though they are fermions. Can fermions form a Bose-Einstein condensate? Well, the electrons can, as long as there is an even number of electrons so that they form an anti-ferromagnetic condensate: Alternatively one can argue that they first pair up with opposite spins, so that these resultant bosons form the condensate; which is what they are forced to do at this point; since they have no other option. According to BCS such a condensate is required for superconduction to occur. According to my experiment, the proof is incontestable that there cannot be an electric–field within this condensate and that the electrons then have no kinetic-energy: Yet charge is transported through the resultant condensate.

Once such a condensate has formed, it is impossible to have separate charge-carriers anymore. One has a single, holistic macro-wave. That this is so is also proved by the properties of Bose-Einstein condensates which have been generated at very low temperatures by cooling suitable gasses (a Nobel Prize has been awarded for this while I do the same with electrons at room temperature: Do you not think that I should get some credit?). So if there are no separate charge-carriers, how does charge transfer from the cathode to the anode through this condensate? It can only happen quantum-mechanically; as both the BCS model and my model claims: What does quantum mechanics tell us? It tells us that there can be quantum fluctuations: i.e. a single wave-entity can borrow energy (delta)E “from the vacuum” as long as it returns this energy within a time-interval (delta)t.

When you do not inject charges into this purely-electron Bose-Einstein Condensate, it is in the lowest energy state that it can be. When you inject an electron, the electron “merges” with the condensate and increases its energy by (delta)E. In order to remain in its lowest energy state, the condensate must then within a time-interval (delta)t spit out an electron at the ejection contact. Note that in this case there is not a charge-carrier moving from the injection contact to the ejection contact; as Ben claims that there must be when superconduction occurs. The transfer of the injected charge is not classical but non-local.

What is important to note is that the charge is transferred NOT because it moves classically with a constant speed through the BEC, but in order for the BEC to maintain its lowest energy state. Since BCS claims that the Cooper pairs form a similar condensate, the transfer of charge through this condensate must also occur for this condensate to maintain its lowest energy state and can therefore not be modelled classically in terms of any of Newton’s laws as you, Ben and Sol have incorrectly claimed all along on this thread.

Within a material, however, the charge-carrier density can never become high enough to form a real BEC similar to the one I have discovered between the diamond and the anode. But just as within the latter phase, the charge-carriers must still form a condensate: However, since their density is too low to merge into becoming a single holistic wave (a real BEC), the charge-carriers are still separately identifiable. Even though this condensate is thus not a “true” BEC, it still requires that all the charge-carriers must each have the same minimum energy.

Since the energy must be a minimum which cannot be lowered any further, or else the charge-carriers will be able to dissipate energy, the charge carriers cannot have kinetic energy. This is only possible when the charge-carriers form an array of localised “anchored” orbitals; just like Mott and Anderson have modelled for many years when you have a phase transition from a metallic state to an insulating state. Thus for a metal to super-conduct it must go through a metal-insulator transition. Note that such a condensate does NOT require that the charge-carriers must be bosons. Since they are separate, like donors within a doped semiconductor, they can all have the same energy while being fermions.

Now how is an injected charge transferred through such an array from the injection contact to the target contact? The clue comes from the real BEC which I formed from electrons between the cathode and the anode when I extracted electrons from a highly-doped n-type diamond. The charge can only be transferred, also in this case, by means of quantum-mechanical fluctuations, each with an energy (delta)E which can appear for a time-interval (delta)t and then totally disappear again. Thus, if this energy is part kinetic energy, this kinetic energy disappears before it has to dissipate by scattering anywhere within the material or the target contact.

If the distance between the anchored orbitals within the insulator-array of orbitals is too large, superconduction cannot occur. When the distance between the orbitals becomes small enough, an orbital can borrow enough energy (delta)E to break free and also have the kinetic energy required to reach the position of an adjacent orbital within the allowed time interval (delta)t. Thus, when injecting a single electron, it reaches a stationary orbital nearest to the injection contact and replaces it: The reason why the resident orbital can be replaced, is that it can move on by a quantum fluctuation [(delta)E for time (delta)t], to replace the next orbital, which then moves on to the next orbital by doing the same, etc. In this manner, a charge is eventually ejected at the target contact without having any kinetic energy that needs to be dissipated. Note that it is thus NOT the same injected charge that moves through the superconductor, nor the charge of the orbital which is “bumped on” by the arrival of the injected charge, but the charge of the last orbital at the target contact.

How quickly is the latter charge ejected at the target orbital after a charge is injected at the injection contact? VERY FAST!!! At a speed between about 106 m/s and light speed. Thus for all intent and purposes, the injection of a charge at the injection contact causes the ejection of a charge at the target contact nearly with the speed of light, and this happens without requiring any simultaneous acceleration of all the charge-carriers. But does this mean that a current is flowing through the superconductor at this speed? NO! Note that when you have injected a single charge, this charge now stays trapped at the position of the first orbital. It only moves on when a second orbital is injected to “bump” it to the next orbital position etc. Thus the rate at which charge carriers flow past a position along the superconductor is totally determined by the rate at which charges are being injected at the injection contact.

Thus not all localised charge-carriers immediately move when you inject charges at the injection contact. For a low injection rate only a fraction of the orbitals at the injection contact are replaced and moves on to generate a current. When increasing the injection rate a larger fraction participates: Thus the current is not determined by the acceleration if charge-carriers within the superconductor but solely by the rate at which charges are being injected. This is also why a superconductor has a maximum current: When the injection rate becomes so high that the density of orbitals at the injection contact is too low to handle this injection rate, you get a traffic jam, and current-flow stops. I do not know why I should be explaining this again on this thread, because it is available in detail on my website: See: www.cathodixx.com/pdfs/ChargeInjection.pdf Oh yes I forgot, YOU, Sol and Ben are all knowing gods who just know when another model is wrong without first studying the model. God help physics!

The fact is, and will remain, that the only experimental result we have is that a current flows through a superconductor without an electric-field being present, and therefore there can be no acceleration of the charge-carriers EVER. Thus, the main issue is to explain how an applied electric field, which is present within the material when a current flows above the critical temperature Tc, is suddenly switched off when the material is cooled through the critical temperature. The final equilibrium current has NOTHING to do with acceleration of charge-carriers through the superconductor; since it is completely determined by the voltage drop V across the external circuit with resistance R(ext). Thus if you have no superconductor element, or superconductor elements of different lengths you will measure the SAME equilibrium current I(eq) for the same external voltage drop V: i.e. I(eq)=V/R(ext).

When you switch on a voltage across a normal conductor, the full voltage will appear immediately when you neglect the inductive response of the conductor. The inductance is usually neglected for a straight piece of wire with resistance. The increase in current through the wire is then mainly determined by the resistance of the wire; and can be modelled by using Drude’s equation: However, when you use a coil of wire, the inductance becomes large, and now you have, in addition, a back-voltage (a voltage supply that is not magic) that has to be overcome before an equilibrium-current is established. Thus, to settle down to an equilibrium current now takes longer. But when equilibrium is reached, the current through the coil is the same as the current will be when the wire is not coiled. Thus the equilibrium current is determined solely by the resistance of the coil. If the circuit containing the coil as an element and the coil have no resistance, the current will increase until the coil burns out.

In your superconducting magnet, you have a large inductive response which gives a back-voltage when you switch on the voltage, and the equilibrium current is obviously achieved when the back-voltage becomes zero: But in this case the coil does NOT burn out since the current through it is totally determined by the resistance of the external circuit which determines the rate at which charge is injected into the superconducting loop. This is also the case during ramping: It is the resistance of the external circuit which determines the current through the superconductor; not the acceleration of free charge-carriers through the superconductor itself. The ramping time is mainly determined by the inductive response of the superconducting coil and has NOTHING to do with acceleration of charge-carriers within the superconductor.
The complicated part is explaining how you GET zero resistance in the first place, along with the other properties of superconductors (like the Meissner effect) which are NOT the direct result of zero resistance.
My model explains it and the explanation is simple as you can see above: And as you would have seen if you took the time to study the excerpts on my website. It is not in the least bit complicated unless you want to use Cooper pairs. That is complicated since it is not a physically possible model.
JFP: I will do this for you: The divergence of an applied conservative electric field while a current is flowing is ALWAYS ZERO.

You: Obviously not. Trivial counterexample: a charging capacitor plate.
There are no charge-carriers between capacitor plates and therefore there can be no charge-carriers flowing everywhere around the circuit. Why do insist on arguing nonsense?
Go to the continuity equation: When a current is flowing through the element (in at one contact and out at the other), then within the element just as many charge-carriers ALWAYS flow into a point as flowing out of a point. Thus the divergence of the current is zero (div)j=0:
That's often (but not always) the case.
It is always the case when you have a current flowing around a circuit without the accumulation of charge at a barrier through which the charge-carriers cannot move; like a capacitor plate. If there are no barriers to the movement of the charge-carriers; then within the circuit this is always so.
The irony here, though, is that one of the cases where this IS the case is during a ramp of a superconducting magnet. Because the current is non-divergent, the continual increase in the current must be happening everywhere simultaneously, which requires that the charge carriers within the superconductor accelerate. Something you claimed couldn't happen. So you've unwittingly contradicted yourself.
As you can see from my discussion above I did not contradict myself. You are contradicting yourself by claiming that both a current and an electric-field can be present within a superconductor. Thus you claim that during ramping there is a voltage V and a current I: According to Ohm’s law this means that there is now a resistance R=V/I. And even if you do not have any scattering within your superconductor, this is a real resistance since your accelerated charges will scatter within the target contact.

As explained above, the increase in current through a superconductor is totally determined by the rate at which charge carriers are being injected into the superconductor, and not with any acceleration of the charge-carriers within the superconductor. As the injection rate increases the current through the superconductor increases and this causes an inductive response which does not require the acceleration of the charge-carriers within the superconductor.

Let us consider the alternative method to generate a current around a superconducting loop. Assume it is a ring and you apply a time-varying magnetic field. According to your reasoning, the charge-carriers will start to move around the ring since they are accelerated by the induced circular electric-field as mandated by Faradays law. This is where you are wrong. They are not moving because they are accelerated.

To prove this, let us first assume that you are correct. One switches on the magnetic field which increases and induces a circular electric-field that accelerates the superconducting charge-carriers. The circular current in turn generates an opposing magnetic field that cancels the applied magnetic field. Once the applied magnetic field becomes constant it is cancelled by the reactive magnetic field generated by the current around the ring. But if we increase the applied magnetic field further, this current must, according to your reasoning, increase owing to the re-appearance of the induced electric-field. This also means that when you now decrease the applied magnetic field an induced circular current will also appear, but now flowing in the opposite direction. Thus this will de-accelerate the charge-carriers and thus decrease the magnetic field that the moving charges are generating in concert with the decrease of the applied magnetic field. This, in turn, mandates that the current becomes zero when the applied magnetic field has been reduced to become zero. Thus a persistent current of charge-carriers cannot remain as is experimentally observed.

This conclusion mandates that the current must be generated by another mechanism than by acceleration. This mechanism is described very clearly in my book, and I am not going to repeat it here since it will make this posting, which is already very long, too long. It is obviously based on the fact that a current will only flow when it is needed to keep the superconducting phase in a lowest energy-state. Suffice to say that the Meissner effect is NOT caused by surface currents but by the absorption of the applied magnetic-field by the stationary charge-carriers. Only under very special conditions will the charge-carriers move to maintain the superconducting state. This happens when the vortex state of type II superconductors is manifesting. But at a lower magnetic field there are no such currents even though the Meissner effect is still manifesting.

Furthermore, if the charge-carriers can be accelerated as you claim, then one must immediately have a current flowing when switching on the external magnetic field. This is not so: A current only starts to flow when a magnetic field is reached at which the charge-carriers have to move in order to maintain a lowest-energy superconducting state. This is why at first there is no current flowing until a critical magnetic field is reached: For a small ring, the magnetic field reaches the value of a flux quantum before a current starts to flow.
JFP: Thus from E=(rho)*j, you must have that (div)E must also be zero everywhere. Thus, it is NOT possible to find a charge density within the material by taking the divergence.
You: That's obviously false. If rho has a gradient, then div(E) can be nonzero even if div(j) is zero. That's simple vector calculus. You know, that thing that you said you understood and we didn't. Oops. Yet another elementary mistake in a long string of elementary mistakes.
I see that both Sol and Ben made the same comment in the next two posts. It is a good point, and it seems that I made a small mistake: Probably because I did not write for (div) that it si del-dot. I will get back to it. The question to address is, however, whether such an accumulation of charge as you claim can cancel an applied electric field within a material. Even if it can, which I doubt, it does not take away the fact that this argument is modelling superconduction by using classical equations which do not apply at all. See above about condensates which must apply for superconduction to be possible. Thus basically, even if you are correct in this instance, this has nothing to do with superconduction. Furthermore, I am glad that my mistake is an oversight and not so stupid as to claim that the gradient of a differentable scalar field can consitiute a circular vector field. I am not yet a total imbecile.
 
Thus basically, even if you are correct in this instance, this has nothing to do with superconduction. Furthermore, I am glad that my mistake is an oversight and not so stupid as to claim that the gradient of a differentable scalar field can consitiute a circular vector field. I am not yet a total imbecile.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Perhaps you've forgotten, Johan: you've been arguing for three pages nonstop that "polarization" was the only possible thing that could cancel an electric field while constant current flowed through it. Why did you argue that?
 
To you it is complicated since the model you are believing in, is complicated. As Bernd Matthias said about the BCS model: When you have equations stretching over half a page, the model is wrong: Nature is not so complicated.

That's a deeply unscientific claim. As such, it's irrelevant here.

My model is simple and can be visualised

Your model is utter nonsense, proped up by ignorance and misconception.

the dependence of the critical temperature on the doping level in the ceramics;

Please, do tell. I'm especially interested to find out why there's a giant asymmetry between electron and hole doping.

the presence of “stripes” in the ceramics

I'm actually surprised that you've even heard of these, though I doubt you know really know what the experimental evidence involved is.

Up to here I agree with you: Especially that there can be no “magic” voltage sources and thus no “magic” electric-fields (take note Ben and Sol). Are you now talking about the electric-field within the superconductor? I will assume that you do. If this is what you are arguing, you are TOTALLY wrong! The resistivity of a superconductor is zero, and therefore a current and an electric-field cannot be simultaneously present within such a material.

Why not? Surely you're aware that Ohm's law does not include inductance (which is ALWAYS nonzero), and that the presence of an electric field in the case of zero resistance merely means that the current will change (ie, charges will accelerate).

Superconduction has NOTHING to do with the classical acceleration of charge-carriers within a material: The motion of charge-carriers is a quantum-mechanical effect.

We've been over this. Schrodinger's equation tells you rather explicitly that when you apply a force to a quantum mechanical particle, it accelerates. This isn't one of the points on which quantum mechanics and classical mechanics disagree.

You then go ahead and immediately violate you own statement by, in addition, arguing wrongly that charge-carriers can flow with zero resistance through a superconductor-element while an electric-field is present within this element. As you should know, resistivity can only be measured indirectly: i.e. experimentally it has been deduced that a superconductor has zero resistivity BECAUSE a current flows through a superconductor element WITHOUT an electric-field driving the current. Ohm’s law has been invoked to define this zero resistivity, as you all insist must be done; without giving an explanation why Ohm’s law does fit this scenario; as it does: Thus according to your own definition, zero resistivity is ONLY valid when the electric-field is ZERO and NOT when the electric-field is non-zero so that it can accelerate the charge-carriers.

This is trivially wrong. All one needs to is include inductance. V = IR works if current is constant or inductance is zero. But inductance is never zero, and in this case I is not constant. So obviously one should us V = IR + L*dI/dt. So when L is nonzero (always) and dI/dt is nonzero (the case of interest here), then obviously V will be nonzero even though R is zero.

Yet another fundamental failure to add to your ever-growing list.

For example, in the case of a vacuum diode it is said that the diode has a vacuum-resistance. Obviously a vacuum cannot have resistance. But a resistance is measured: The reason for this is that the accelerating charge-carriers can never cancel the applied electric field, and they therefore dissipate all their kinetic energy which they gained by acceleration within the anode

And why do they even need to accelerate within the anode? Obviously because there's a field there, but why does there need to be a field? Since a vacuum has no resistance (electrons don't scatter within the vacuum), why is any field required to make the current flow?

Because the anode has a work function. I'm surprised you think you can describe the effective resistance of a vacuum diode without reference to this work function.

It is obvious that the voltage can be made smaller and smaller for the same current if one can find a way of increasing the density of the charge-carriers between the cathode and anode within a vacuum diode. This can be done by increasing the temperature of the cathode, and it is then indeed found that the voltage for the same current drops with increasing temperature

And why would increasing the temperature increase the density of electrons in the gap? Why, because thermal excitations help boost them over the work function.

Is it possible to increase the density of the charge-carriers to become large enough so that the voltage, and thus the electric field between the cathode and anode, becomes zero? Not in a vacuum diode

Because the work function is always nonzero.

But this is what I have achieved with my diamond experiment when sufficiently increasing the donor-dopant density just below the surface of the diamond. A point can then be reached when the density of electrons becomes high enough so that the voltage becomes zero. This, in turn demands that all the electrons between the cathode and anode must become stationary.

No, it demands that the electrons not accelerate. Quite different.

And if your (close to) zero resistance result is actually true, it suggests that you've dropped the work function to (close to) zero, not that you've discovered superconductivity.

Again, I'm amazed that you can discuss any of this without including anything about the work function.

In your superconducting magnet, you have a large inductive response which gives a back-voltage when you switch on the voltage, and the equilibrium current is obviously achieved when the back-voltage becomes zero: But in this case the coil does NOT burn out since the current through it is totally determined by the resistance of the external circuit which determines the rate at which charge is injected into the superconducting loop. This is also the case during ramping: It is the resistance of the external circuit which determines the current through the superconductor; not the acceleration of free charge-carriers through the superconductor itself.

You're fiddling around the edges, and missing the key claim: as the current ramps, the charge carriers throughout the entire superconductor are accelerating simultaneously. Current is changing everywhere within the superconductor at the same time, and that's only possible if the charge carriers accelerate.

The ramping time is mainly determined by the inductive response of the superconducting coil and has NOTHING to do with acceleration of charge-carriers within the superconductor.

The acceleration of the charge carriers IS the change in current. They are one and the same. And that change is happening everywhere within the magnet at the same time.

I see that both Sol and Ben made the same comment in the next two posts. It is a good point, and it seems that I made a small mistake: Probably because I did not write for (div) that it si del-dot. I will get back to it.

It's not a small mistake, it's a giant mistake. And it doesn't matter whether you wrote it as del or del-dot or whatever: ALL derivative operators have some form of product rule, which you obviously ignored.

The question to address is, however, whether such an accumulation of charge as you claim can cancel an applied electric field within a material.

It obviously MUST, otherwise Ohm's law cannot work. Ben's simple circuit demonstrates quite plainly that the electric field must vary if Ohm's law is true, and the only way to get it to vary is by accumulating charges where there's a variation in the resistivity.

Even if it can, which I doubt, it does not take away the fact that this argument is modelling superconduction by using classical equations which do not apply at all.

But they do apply. Superconductors don't violate Maxwell's equations, and you have argued repeatedly that Ohm's law applies as well. And that's all you need for the above.
 
2. My standpoint:
I argue that free charge-carriers that can be accelerated by an applied electric field can NEVER cancel an applied electric field within a conductor while they transport a current through the material:

State clearly: do excess charge-carriers accumulate at the target contact leaving opposite charges behind at the injection contact when a superconducting current is flowing in order to cancel the applied electric field within the superconductor?: This is what I understand from your previous posts. Are you now rejecting what you have posted?

This is claptrap!

Thus WHILE A CURRENT IS FLOWING it is impossible for free charge carriers (which can be accelerated) to accumulate to a high enough density so that they can generate a polarisation field which cancels the applied electric field between the contacts.

Man oh man: This is simple Kindergarten physics!

This CANNOT happen while a current is flowing through such a material since then there are NO barriers along the direction of flow at which the charge-carriers can accumulate in order to generate an opposite polarisation field that can cancel the applied electric-field.

while a current is flowing, charges cannot accumulate at the contacts to cancel the applied electric-field. As I have already pointed out: This is Kindergarten physics!

You claim that what happens is that the field is cancelled by the sudden accumulation of charges at the contacts, while the charge-carriers are still free charge-carriers. Simple Kindergarten physics proves that you must be wrong.

GET IT!? :covereyes

A single external charge in addition to the equal numbers of opposite charges within the material DOES NOT give a “perfect” example which proves that free charge-carriers can accumulate at an interface while a current flows through the interface. The latter is NOT possible; even when you have some local fluctuations in charge density.

Until you run to the end of your rope, and then suddenly:

It is a good point, and it seems that I made a small mistake: Probably because I did not write for (div) that it si del-dot. I will get back to it. The question to address is, however, whether such an accumulation of charge as you claim can cancel an applied electric field within a material. Even if it can, which I doubt, it does not take away the fact that this argument is modelling superconduction by using classical equations which do not apply at all. See above about condensates which must apply for superconduction to be possible. Thus basically, even if you are correct in this instance, this has nothing to do with superconduction.

"Never mind my pages and pages of insults! It must not have mattered to begin with!"
 
The question to address is, however, whether such an accumulation of charge as you claim can cancel an applied electric field within a material. Even if it can, which I doubt, it does not take away the fact that this argument is modelling superconduction by using classical equations which do not apply at all.

Let's go right ahead and address it.

Take my iron-copper-iron picture again, Johan. You managed to correctly write down the electric fields E = rho j, with two different values of rho. You have seen that this (global) electric field is set up, quite adequately, by combining an external field (from, e.g., whatever power supply is injecting the current from the far left) with the field due to internal charge excesses that sit on the interfaces.

Can you calculate the charge density at that interface, Johan? Let's take a large value for the current density---say, 1 kA/cm^2---and standard values for the iron and copper resistivities. Do you "doubt" that this charge is really there?

(Remember, you previously insisted that it was utterly impossible for any charge whatsoever to exist; you called this conclusion "kindergarden physics".)

Now replace the copper by a hypothetical material with zero resistivity. You can write down the fields easily---you already have the equations. (just set rho=0.) You can calculate the charge sheet that sets up these fields---again, you already have done so, just replace rho_copper with 0. Calculate the charge density, in C/cm^2.

Please actually do this, I'd like to see you produce the number.

This picture has E=0 AND current flow. Please notice that the E=0 condition did not require any new physics assumptions, despite your mistake-ridden assertion to the contrary.
 
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha !

Perhaps you've forgotten, Johan: you've been arguing for three pages nonstop that "polarization" was the only possible thing that could cancel an electric field while constant current flowed through it. Why did you argue that?
I have not argued that polarization is the only possible thing that could cancel an electric field while a constant current is flowing". I have said that polarisation is the only thing that can cancel an applied electric field within a conductor which has free charge-carriers that can be accelerated; and this is only possible when there is no current flowing after the field has been cancelled.

Why are you always deliberately distorting what I have been saying? This means that even if free charge-carriers, which can be accelerated, can accumulate for any reason which I did not anticipate, such an accumulation can never cancel an applied electric field within such a conductor and allow a current to still flow through the conductor. You have said that such an accumulation can occur which will cancel the applied electric field within a conductor, having free charge-carriers that can be accelerated, while a current is still flowing through such a conductor. And I still dispute this assertion by you as gibberish.

Ziggurat has as usual posted a lot of claptrap. I will have to put the record straight since "I have never met a man who knows more things that are not so than Ziggurat": However, I also have to do other things and will thus from now on only post at intervals that are longer than 3 days at a time.

so, until later :)
 
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Why are you always deliberately distorting what I have been saying? This means that even if charge can accumulate for any reason which I did not anticipate, such an accumulation can never cancel an electric field within a conductor and allow a current to still flow through the conductor.

Yet you just wrote down all of the equations for just such an event:

1) The electric field in the contacts (here, the iron) is j x rho_contact.
2) The electric field in the center (here, the copper) is j x rho_center.
3) The difference between these electric fields (i.e., the partial cancellation) is fully explained by Gauss's Law, which tells us that there is excess charge of epsilon0 x j x (rho_contact - rho_center) at the boundary.

If rho_center = 0 --- i.e. if we replace the copper with a perfect conductor---then the equations you have just given tell us:

1) The electric field in the contacts (here, iron) is j.rho_contact
2) The electric field in the "perfect conductor" is zero
3) The difference between these electric fields (i.e. the complete cancellation) is fully explained by Gauss's Law, which tells us that there is an excess charge of epsilon0 x j x rho_contact at the boundary.

By the way, I am in no way distorting what you have said. You have said that the above is impossible. Your argument has been, always, a general prohibition on a current passing by an excess of free charges. What's your argument now?
 
Ziggurat has as usual posted a lot of claptrap. I will have to put the record straight since "I have never met a man who knows more things that are not so than Ziggurat"

And yet, you're the one who keeps making elementary mistakes. Like not using the product rule for a derivative. Or not including the inductance when calculating a voltage when the current is changing.
 
Ziggurat has as usual posted a lot of claptrap.

No, Johan. Everything you post is riddled with basic conceptual errors. In the rare event you post an equation, you invariably make a simple mathematical mistake. Not surprisingly, that's obvious to everyone reading this train-wreck of a thread.

Everything Zig has posted in this thread, by contrast, has been perfectly accurate.
 
Everything Zig has posted in this thread, by contrast, has been perfectly accurate.

Not quite everything. I made one mistake early on which I realized almost immediately. But yeah, my record is definitely doing better than johan's.
 
Three S-------ts or Three St----s?

On this thread, Ben, Sol and Ziggurat, have demonstrated time and time again that they are not interested to discuss physics but only to discredit me; come what may. I have pointed out time and again that my model for superconduction is posted on my website in summary-format, and this includes a full description of how a current increases within a superconductor without an electric-field being present within the superconductor; as the situation must be for such a material. This is why superconduction has been discovered: The absence of an electric-field, when a current flows through a material, is thus the ONLY fundamental defining characteristic of superconduction. Every other characteristic is secondary to this behaviour.

If there is an electric field within a material which accelerates charge-carriers, one has both a voltage drop V across the material and a current I flowing through the material and one can thus calculate a resistance R; and this resistance does actually cause the dissipation of all the kinetic energy which is generated by the charge-carriers while being accelerated through the material; and this energy is also given for the average current I by I2R; even if this only happens after the charge-carriers have passed through the material: i.e. even when the conductor does not have any internal resistivity. In contrast, when a current flows through a superconductor there is NO generation of kinetic energy caused by acceleration EVER, since there is NEVER an electric-field within the material that causes acceleration: Whether the current is constant, increasing or decreasing does NOT matter at all in this respect. And therefore there is no dissipation of kinetic energy EVER: Also not after the charge-carriers have entered the target contact.

In a normal conductor, having an internal resistivity, and a density of N free charge-carriers (each having a charge q) the current can be written as Jn=qNvn; where vn is the drift speed that is caused by many consecutive accelerations of all the charge-carriers and scatterings of all the charge-carriers. Within a superconductor having N charge-carriers, these charge-carriers cannot be accelerated simultaneously since there is not an electric-field present that can do this and they also do not scatter. Thus the drift speed vs is, in this case, not caused my acceleration-scattering events. It is determined by quantum-mechanics. The magnitude of the current through the superconductor is, however, totally determined by the resistance external to the superconductor element: i.e. by the rate at which charge is injected into the superconductor. In this case the current Js through the superconducting element must be written as Js =qNsvs where Ns<N.

Thus when a current flows through a superconductor not all the charge-carriers are involved: Only a sufficient fraction of them which are enough to transfer the injected current from the injection contact to reach the target contact. Thus, those charge-carriers which are not needed to transfer charge, must be stationary orbitals. Thus, when no current is flowing, ALL the superconducting charge-carriers must be stationary orbitals. When increasing the EMF across the whole circuit, the current that is allowed to flow by the external resistance, increases and the current through the superconductor must increase in concert: This is achieved by an increase in Ns. When this increase in current requires that Ns become equal to N, one has a traffic jam; and superconduction stops.

Since superconduction stops the injection and target contacts are not short-circuited anymore: An electric-field appears in the superconductor which polarises all the now stationary charge-carriers. This decreases their binding energy and thus the energy gap between them and the energy-sates within which they are free charge-carriers. Normal charge-carriers thus appear and normal conduction kicks in: Just as experimentally observed.

The question is: Why do Ziggurat, Sol and Ben not discuss what I have posted on my website? There can be only two possible reasons:

(i) They refuse to study my model; but even so, go full-out to try and discredit my scientific ability. In other words they have decided a priori that Johan Prins must be wrong and therefore they try their best to trip me up on non-relevant issues. Scientists with this mentality are beneath contempt:

(ii) Or maybe they have read what I have posted on my website and could not find any flaws in my physics-logic; but still do not want to concede that the mainstream dogma might be wrong: This attitude is even more despicable since such behaviour is treason against the scientific method.

To expose them, I decided a few days ago to admit that I made a mistake, while I did not really make a mistake. The reaction was predictable: Ben, Sol and Ziggurat descended on me like three rabid dogs. Where did I plant this bait? Let us go to posts 1842, 1843 and 1844
JFP in post 1843: Thus from E=(rho)*j, you must have that (div)E must also be zero everywhere. Thus, it is NOT possible to find a charge density within the material by taking the divergence.
Ziggurat in post 1844: That's obviously false. If rho has a gradient, then div(E) can be nonzero even if div(j) is zero. That's simple vector calculus. You know, that thing that you said you understood and we didn't. Oops. Yet another elementary mistake in a long string of elementary mistakes.
THE BAIT: JFP in post 1847: I see that both Sol and Ben made the same comment in the next two posts. It is a good point, and it seems that I made a small mistake: Probably because I did not write for (div) that it is del-dot. I will get back to it.
My answer in post 1843 to Ben’s challenge in post 1842 does, however, actually answer the questions that Ben has asked, while the arguments by Ziggurat in post 1844, Sol in post 1845, and Ben in post 1846, again illustrate their total inability to understand when differential calculus can be applied and when not. To be able to differentiate a scalar function or field, the function or field must be continuous and single-valued at every point. We have already been entertained by the antics of Sol, Ben and Ziggurat when they doggedly maintained that you can take the gradient of a scalar field that is not single-valued at every point and then calculate a circular integral using this gradient to obtain a non-zero result; even though the fundamental rules of mathematics clearly exclude the latter from being possible.

Now let us go back to Ben’s challenge in post 1842:
Try this, Johan. Forget superconductors for a moment. They are too complicated for the simple mistakes you are making.

Consider two ordinary conductors---say, copper (low resistivity) and iron (high resistivity). Consider three blocks of metal as follows:

Code:
========::::::::::========
=iron===::copper::==iron==
========::::::::::========
========::::::::::========

---> constant current ----->
Given j and the resistivities, can you find the electric field inside the metals?

Given the electric field, can you take the divergence (hint: draw a Gaussian surface around either metal-metal boundary) and find the internal charge density?
Note that in the first question Ben asked for the electric-field within the metals: He did not ask for the electric field at the interfaces of the metals: Probably because he was again deliberately dishonest in trying to set a trap: Just as in the case of the van de Graaff tube. I immediately suspected correctly what he was up to.

In the second question he asked me to “find the internal charge density” by drawing a “Gaussian surface”. A Gaussian surface always encloses a volume. This is what I did: I constructed a Gaussian surface around the copper: And low and behold, there are just as many electric-field lines entering at the one interface to the left iron block than are leaving at the other interface to the next block of iron; Thus, there is no divergence and therefore no excess, internal charge-density within the copper or on its interfaces to the iron. My answer is thus perfectly correct.

Now let us go to good old Solly committing, as usual, another Folly when he posted post no. 1845:
Let's use your own equations. What is div(rho*j)? It's not rho*div(j) - surely your math isn't that bad, is it? This is "elementary vector calculus" - you know, the thing you said you'd lost track of how many times you tried to teach us in this thread?
Yes, I had to give up on all three of them since, as already pointed out above Sol, Ben and Ziggurat are not even able to understand that one cannot take the gradient of a scalar-field which is not single-valued at every point. Sol, Ben and Ziggurat are unable to even understand the rules that determine when elementary calculus applies and when not. Like most present-day theoretical physicists they forget that differential equations fail when the physics is such that the functions, determined by the differential equation, cannot physically be really continuous and single-valued. Thus a solution to a differential equation might not necessarily model the actual physics that it is supposed to model.

The correct formula is

div(rho*j) = rho*div(j) + j.(grad rho)

Now, what is grad rho in ben's diagram, Johan? I'll tell you - it's not zero at the interfaces, and its dot product with j is not zero either.
In Ben’s diagram the resistivity is NOT single-valued on the interfaces at all. It has a very sharp, vertical drop from the resistivity of iron to that of copper and at the other interface it is also not single valued since it has a sharp, vertical increase. Thus, you cannot use Sol’s so-called “correct formula” to derive a gradient by means of differentiation. Since both values of the resistivity is present within both interfaces, it implies that the gradient must be infinity in both cases. So according to Sol’s reasoning the divergence is infinite, which requires an infinite charge within the interface! This is obviously physics-nonsense.
Therefore, by your own equations, there is charge at the interfaces between copper and iron.
You have not proved this at all since there does not physically exist a real resistivity function of position in nature that is continuous and single-valued. Resistivity is actually determined by sequential acceleration and scattering events which has nothing to do with a continuous field. Only under suitable conditions does the assumption that such a continuous, single-valued field for the resistivity can be used give reasonable results; but when taking the gradient of such a function, which is not physically real, one is not doing physics anymore.
So you now have three choices:
a) declare you were wrong that E = (rho)*j
I am not wrong; It should, however, be noted that this equation must not be interpreted as if resistivity can physically actually be a continuous function of position. Such an assumption is an approximation so that calculus can be used; but it fails, like in this case, when calculus cannot be applied to obtain a reasonable answer.
b) declare our math is wrong
Obviously this is the actual situation since you assume that you can calculate the gradient of a function that cannot physically exist as an actual continuous and single-valued field.
c) admit you are wrong about never having charge densities when there's a steady current flowing
This is obviously NOT what I have claimed: What I have stated very clearly is that during current-flow, within a material that has free charges which can be accelerated, there can never be enough charge accumulation anywhere within such a material, or at its surfaces, to EVER cancel an applied electric field within such a material.
Choice b) is very difficult,
As you can see, it is not difficult at all since Sol, Ben and Ziggurat are clueless when it comes to the mathematical rules of calculus: i.e. when calculus can be applied and when not.
and it's clear from previous exchanges that you in fact understand that your math skills are essentially nonexistent.
MY math skills? Look who is talking! Sol does not even know when one can use the gradient operator and when not.
So, I predict either a) or c). We'll see!
Wrong again! It is actually b). Both mathematics and physics again failed in the hands of Ben, Sol and Ziggurat; AS USUAL.

Now to end this post, let’s have some more fun: Let us go to Ben’s post 1846
Sol is right, Johan. I picked this geometry for a reason.

You can see that he is right even without knowing math. In the left-hand (iron) block, E is large and pointing straight right. In the middle (copper) block, E is small and pointing straight right.
And in the right-hand (iron) block E is just as large as in the first iron block, and pointing straight right. This proves that there is no accumulation of charge within the copper.
In other words, E changes magnitude from one location to another. That means it has a nonzero derivative, which is the same thing (in a 1-D geometry) as a divergence.
You claim that E changes magnitude at the SAME location (at the interface) so that there is an infinite gradient: If this requires charge-accumulation, one must have an infinite charge density on the interface. This is typical of all the claptrap you have been consistently posting on this thread all along.

So let me repeat again the obvious: While a current is flowing through a material, which has free charge-carriers that can be accelerated, it is impossible for enough charge to accumulate anywhere within such a material or on the surfaces of such a material, so that such accumulated charge can completely cancel an applied electric field within such a material. An applied electric field can only be cancelled when there is no current entering such a material, so that the current cannot flow through such a material, and cannot flow out of such a material. The applied electric field can ONLY be cancelled when a current cannot flow into and out of a material.

In Ben’s diagram the cancellation of an electric-field within the copper is only possible when there are insulating gaps between the copper and the iron blocks. This is always the case for any material with free charge-carriers that can be accelerated by an applied electric-field; even if these charge-carriers experience no resistance to their motion through such a material.

It is really very simple physics: When the iron blocks do not make contact to the material (whether it is copper or any other material through which charge-carriers can be accelerated; no matter whether these charge-carriers experience resistance to their motion or not) opposite charges will accumulate at the two surfaces until the polarisation field generated between the accumulated opposite charges equals the applied electric-field within the copper and cancels it. This also means that on the surfaces of the two iron blocks there are accumulated charges so that at each end of the copper one has a charged capacitor. The latter is essential in order to cancel the applied electric field within the copper.

When now pressing the iron blocks against the copper, the accumulated charges on the opposite surfaces of the copper and the iron blocks merge at each interface and thus totally cancel: A current now flows through the copper but since charges are entering the copper at the same rate as they leave the copper, opposite charges can now not accumulate sufficiently at the interfaces to cancel the applied electric-field; as they could in the case when there were insulating gaps between the iron and the copper. Thus, the applied electric field can never become cancelled within the copper, even if the copper suddenly changes into a material that does not oppose the motion of its charge-carriers. As long as you have free charge-carriers that can be accelerated one will ALWAYS measure a voltage across two contacts while a current is flowing into, through, and out of such a material.
 
To expose them, I decided a few days ago to admit that I made a mistake, while I did not really make a mistake.
As a long-time lurker in this awesome train wreck of a thread, I just have to say...

...give me a *********** break.

In my area of expertise, such as it is, (law), whenever a witness tries that move while under cross-examination (i.e., compounds mistakes and lies with more mistakes and lies in an attempt to explain away the first set of mistakes and lies), I know that I have won.

But do carry on. It's all marvelously entertaining.
 
On this thread, Ben, Sol and Ziggurat, have demonstrated time and time again that they are not interested to discuss physics but only to discredit me

Not so. Those two activities are almost synonymous.

I have pointed out time and again that my model for superconduction is posted on my website in summary-format, and this includes a full description of how a current increases within a superconductor without an electric-field being present within the superconductor; as the situation must be for such a material. This is why superconduction has been discovered: The absence of an electric-field, when a current flows through a material, is thus the ONLY fundamental defining characteristic of superconduction.

By your own admission, these measurements of zero electric field are done at equilibrium current. Which tells us nothing about the presence or absence of a field when current is not in equilibrium.

Furthermore, the idea that current can change without an electric field is absurd on its face. It's a violation of momentum conservation, as well as an obviously unaccounted-for symmetry breaking. Not that this would be the first time you've violated a fundamental conservation law.

Every other characteristic is secondary to this behaviour.

Well, no. What you describe (incorrectly) above is simply the result of R=0. But other characteristics of superconductors cannot be explained by R=0.

If there is an electric field within a material which accelerates charge-carriers, one has both a voltage drop V across the material and a current I flowing through the material and one can thus calculate a resistance R

Yes, one can. In fact, I already told you explicitly how to do so. V = IR + L*dI/dt. L is not zero. Ever. R = 0 simply means that if V =/=, then dI/dt =/= 0 (and vice versa).

So not only are you making an elementary mistake that no freshman physics student should be making, you're repeating the mistake after having been corrected.

In contrast, when a current flows through a superconductor there is NO generation of kinetic energy caused by acceleration EVER

Evidently electrons become massless inside superconductors.

since there is NEVER an electric-field within the material that causes acceleration

This is simply wrong.

Whether the current is constant, increasing or decreasing does NOT matter at all in this respect

It makes all the difference in the world.

The question is: Why do Ziggurat, Sol and Ben not discuss what I have posted on my website? There can be only two possible reasons:

Sorry, johan, there are more than two options. I can't speak for Sol or Ben, but in my case we have 3) your ideas are obvious nonsense, you contradict standard, well-established physics at every turn, you make basic and fatal mistakes on a regular basis, and your website is garbage.

I did indeed discuss what you posted on your website once. I pointed out how nonsensical it was. But it didn't do any good. You didn't learn anything. So what's the incentive for me to make an effort which produces no results?

To expose them, I decided a few days ago to admit that I made a mistake, while I did not really make a mistake. The reaction was predictable: Ben, Sol and Ziggurat descended on me like three rabid dogs. Where did I plant this bait? Let us go to posts 1842, 1843 and 1844

My answer in post 1843 to Ben’s challenge in post 1842 does, however, actually answer the questions that Ben has asked, while the arguments by Ziggurat in post 1844, Sol in post 1845, and Ben in post 1846, again illustrate their total inability to understand when differential calculus can be applied and when not. To be able to differentiate a scalar function or field, the function or field must be continuous and single-valued at every point.

1) That's not even true. A discontinuous function simply produces Dirac delta functions when you take the derivative.
2) Resistivity is part of a continuum approximation, so treating a discontinuity as anything other than a result of that approximation is foolish and unphysical. For someone obsessed about how modern physics is supposedly detached from reality in its infatuation with math, this is a particularly ironic error.
3) If one uses a system in which the resistivity changes gradually so that there is no discontinuity at all, then one still finds that your previous assertions are disproven. The simple scenario Ben gave is easier to work with, but it's not a requirement at all.

Doubling down on a mistake makes you look far more foolish than having made the original mistake. The fact that you think this provides some sort of "gotcha" is particularly pathetic.

Note that in the first question Ben asked for the electric-field within the metals: He did not ask for the electric field at the interfaces of the metals

What's the electric field at the interface of a capacitor? Is that somehow a problem? No, it isn't. But it works exactly the same. The math that Ben laid out works the same way for a capacitor, and produces the right answers.

In the second question he asked me to “find the internal charge density” by drawing a “Gaussian surface”. A Gaussian surface always encloses a volume. This is what I did: I constructed a Gaussian surface around the copper: And low and behold, there are just as many electric-field lines entering at the one interface to the left iron block than are leaving at the other interface to the next block of iron; Thus, there is no divergence and therefore no excess, internal charge-density within the copper or on its interfaces to the iron. My answer is thus perfectly correct.

Try again. Draw your Gaussian surface to enclose one boundary between the iron and copper. All you've demonstrated is that the charge isn't within the copper. But we already knew that. We knew that the charge was located at the boundary. You're the only one who couldn't (or wouldn't) figure it out.

In Ben’s diagram the resistivity is NOT single-valued on the interfaces at all.

That's simply not true. It's discontinuous, but a discontinuity doesn't require a double-valued function. Since you have a hard time understanding this, let me make an explicit example:

f(x) = 0 for x < 0
f(x) = 1/2 for x = 0
f(x) = 1 for x > 0

Is this function single-valued? Why, yes, yes it is. Is it defined for all x? Yes. Is it discontinuous? Yes.

And lastly, is it differentiable?

Yes. It is.

But again, considering the case of a continuously varying resistivity also produces a nonzero charge density, disproving your position without having to use the Dirac delta function or otherwise deal with a discontinuous distribution.

Since both values of the resistivity is present within both interfaces, it implies that the gradient must be infinity in both cases. So according to Sol’s reasoning the divergence is infinite, which requires an infinite charge within the interface!

No. It requires an infinite charge density, not an infinite charge. But any time you assume that a finite charge is distributed in less than three dimensions (ie, only one or two), then you ALWAYS have an infinite charge density. This isn't a problem, so long as you recognize that it's an approximation and handle that approximation correctly. Which the Dirac delta function allows you to do. It's infinite, but its integral (which is what you need to get the total charge) is finite.

Only under suitable conditions does the assumption that such a continuous, single-valued field for the resistivity can be used give reasonable results; but when taking the gradient of such a function, which is not physically real, one is not doing physics anymore.

You tried to use resistivity in a calculation to prove your point. You were shown that you were wrong. Now you're basically arguing that you can't use resistivity because it's not real.

Wow.

I am not wrong

Yes, johan, you are wrong. Spectacularly wrong.

It should, however, be noted that this equation must not be interpreted as if resistivity can physically actually be a continuous function of position. Such an assumption is an approximation

Well, duh! If you don't want to use that approximation, then you can't define resistance at all.

but it fails, like in this case, when calculus cannot be applied to obtain a reasonable answer.

Calculus can be applied to obtain a reasonable answer. The fact that you don't know how is irrelevant.

But give it another try. Use the delta function to calculate the charge density at the interface. Make a Gaussian surface which envelops that interface. Calculate the enclosed charge. Compare that to the surface charge density. What will you find? Well, if you do it right, you'll find that they agree.

Of course, odds are against you doing it right, but maybe you'll surprise us.

And if you can't handle this, then we can work with a smoothly varying resistance, and we can step through the calculations there to prove you were wrong.
 
In Ben’s diagram the resistivity is NOT single-valued on the interfaces at all. It has a very sharp, vertical drop from the resistivity of iron to that of copper and at the other interface it is also not single valued since it has a sharp, vertical increase. Thus, you cannot use Sol’s so-called “correct formula” to derive a gradient by means of differentiation. Since both values of the resistivity is present within both interfaces, it implies that the gradient must be infinity in both cases.

Fine. Repeat the problem, but now rather than abutting the iron and copper, we'll weld them so that the resistivity drops over a finite difference---say, 1 nanometer---and repeat the problem. All of your objections go away.

You should have been able to see from the begin with that your objection was not going to bother anyone. If you have ever taken an E&M course you have dealt with dozens of these "infinitely thing sheets" of charge; they're the standard thing that forces E=0 in an isolated meal sphere, for example. Yes, on paper their E fields have step-discontinuities, but nobody cares, because the physics of the "infinitely thin sheet" are exactly the same as the physics of the "sheet that's thinner than I can resolve".

You would have never objected to this at the time, and neither would anyone else from Maxwell to Gauss to my E&M teachers to me. You, on the other hand, are desperate for something to object to whether or not it's a problem.

I repeat: go through the whole sad rigamarole again, taking the resistivity to be a piecewise-continuous function rather than a step function. You'll get the same answer that you're trying to flail away at now, but without divergences.

Your technique is actually a familiar belligerent-failing-student argument---latch onto some standard simplifying detail of the question and claim that it confused you, because you're such a good physicist you can't ignore anything.

"Why'd I get a zero for this cannonball problem on the final exam?"
"Because you left it blank."
"Well---it's not even a meaningful problem! The formula sheet only showed the method that ignores air resistance, which means you practically asked us to get the answer wrong. Wrong is wrong."
"No."
"Half credit?"
 

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