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Merged General Holocaust denial discussion thread

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No.

Because in my experience Holocaust deniers hate all Jews.

Your experience needs broadening. Let me help you with that.

What you see as hatred of Jews is actually hatred of Pharisees/Zionists... in at least this one instance.

I love the Judahites who have not fallen in love with the wrong shepherd. I pray for their eyes to be opened... to be given oil for ashes. To mourn for Jesus as the firstborn Son, of the God they love and will serve forever in the Kingdom, when Kingdom comes. Those 144,000 are my dearly beloved companions-to-be.
 
Your experience needs broadening. Let me help you with that.

What you see as hatred of Jews is actually hatred of Pharisees/Zionists... in at least this one instance.

I love the Judahites who have not fallen in love with the wrong shepherd. I pray for their eyes to be opened... to be given oil for ashes. To mourn for Jesus as the firstborn Son, of the God they love and will serve forever in the Kingdom, when Kingdom comes. Those 144,000 are my dearly beloved companions-to-be.

Yea,right. Do you have anything serious to say?
 
From my post:
“If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian and rape a Russian woman.--Krasnaya Zvezda, Ilya Ehrenberg

“All of us knew very well that if the girls were German they could be raped and then shot. This was almost a combat distinction.”
--Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 1, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

I actually think you need this explained to you...

Ehrenburg is saying that German soldiers will rape Russian women if you don't kill them.

Solzhenitsyn is talking about the Soviet policy of raping German women, but he doesn't mention Ehrenburg. He mentions Ehrenburg elsewhere, but not here.

By the way, Beevor was of the opinion that Ehrenburg didn't actually say half of what's attributed to him. I happen to think Beevor exaggerated this point, but in Rubinstein's bio of Ehrenburg, he points out that he strenuously objected to mass rape of German women.

"All of us" understand the analogy... it's a reverse Golden Rule scenario: do unto others before they do unto you... but you don't even see the "mention" of rape. Interesting... Fact is that most of his propaganda pamphlets have gone missing, and yet we can still (most of us) SEE the type of psychology he used.

No, they haven't "gone missing" at all. Here's on, e.g.:

EREN.GIF



From my post:
"Nemmersdorf, where females from 8 to 80 were gang-raped to death and nailed--CRUCIFIED--to barn doors. (Who cares about Matthew 23, you ask? Obviously Ehrenburg's listeners did... why else did they crucify them?"

I still don't care, and your point here is irrelevant.

And yet, Solzhenitsyn says these things:

"And not only socialists were now politicals. The politicals were splashed in tubfuls into the fifteen-million-criminal ocean, and they were invisible and inaudible to us. They were mute. They were muter than all the rest. Their image was the fish. The fish, symbol of the early Christians. And the Christians were their principal contingent... There was a multitude of Christians: prisoner transports and graveyards, prisoner transports and graveyards. Who will count those millions?"
--page 310, Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Thanks for proving my point. By the way, I like how you jump back 250 pages to tack on the rest of that. Classy. Why do you people find it necessary to consistently quote out of context, and provably so?

"The truth was that not all our people, even though socialist, had yet risen to that steadfast cruel level necessary for a worthy camp guard! The VOKhR staff was uneven, and ceased to be the wall of horror it was intended to be. It softened up especially in the years of the Soviet-German war; the very best trained (in "good viciousness") of the young fellows had to be surrendered to the front, and the sickly reservists were dragged into VOKhR..."
--page 560, Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Which means that your "vast majority" contained those vicious VOKhR camp guards... rape and murder is what they did in GULag, too... it's THEIR M.O.!

I'm not seeing your point here. I told you that it's a foregone conclusion that the Soviet soldiers committed vast rapes. I merely said that Ehrenburg disapproved. And you're spinning out of control here because you can't find a single thing he said that disproves that.

From my post:
"In Ehrenburg's memoirs you will find no trace of such trivial incidents. Anyway, he might not have known that the man arguing with him had been arrested. He merely offered a fairly standard Party-line reply at that particular moment and then forgot about it. Ehrenburg writes that he himself "survived by lottery." Well, that little lottery had marked numbers. If they were rounding up your friends, you had to stop phoning them in time. If the wagon shaft turned, it was necessary to turn too. Ehrenburg heated up hatred for the Germans so insanely that Stalin had to pull him up short. If you feel toward the end of your life that you helped establish a lie, then what is required to justify yourself is not memoirs but an immediate bold self-sacrifice."
--Gulag Archipelago, Vol. 2, by Alexander Solzhenitsyn

Is THAT what you think Solzhenitsyn is saying? oh...kay...

Yes, that's what he's saying. He's saying that rather than having written an autobiography, Ehrenburg should have apologized for his viciousness.

Nevertheless... my original point in posting the quote was this amazing statement:

"Ehrenburg heated up hatred for the Germans so insanely that Stalin had to pull him up short."

If even the Monster Stalin seemed to think that Ehrenburg was over the line... just how bad was Ehrenburg actually being?

I don't think that Solzhenitsyn was correct on that point, and there's plenty of scholarship out there to suggest he wasn't.

Remember that Solzhenitsyn wasn't an insider. His ability to know things that went on in government would have been very limited.

{snip}

Do you think that only Solzhenitsyn's sons know English and Russian? Since the book IS available in Russian, the English WILL learn it. The demand is there... despite the nay-saying of the press and its satellite drones.

I don't know what other languages they know: I've only ever spoken to them in English, but they all translate for their father. I don't know what about what I wrote would have you thinking that I ruled out their speaking other languages. I said no such thing.
 
What you see as hatred of Jews is actually hatred of Pharisees/Zionists... in at least this one instance.

So if a Jew isn't a Zionist, you love him? You love these guys?

Neturei_karta2_55.JPG


I love the Judahites who have not fallen in love with the wrong shepherd. I pray for their eyes to be opened... to be given oil for ashes. To mourn for Jesus as the firstborn Son, of the God they love and will serve forever in the Kingdom, when Kingdom comes. Those 144,000 are my dearly beloved companions-to-be.

Which assumes that the rest of the 15 million or so Jews worldwide will be dead.

No wonder you love the Holocaust.
 
@Dogzilla
Apart from the question if all the bodies were first buried. I thought this wasn't the case at Treblinka. How do you want to prove that there once was/were hole(s). And why do you seem to claim that the (former) presence of these holes has already been disproven? The Krege (non-)report?


The history books tell us that when Treblinka opened for business, they buried the bodies in mass graves inside the camp. They did this until Himmler ordered that the mass graves be destroyed so there won't be any evidence of the crimes. So in the Spring 1943 they opened up the mass graves and began burning the bodies contained within. Jews brought to Treblinka to be gassed after they began burning the bodies were murdered and then taken immediately to the pyre without first being buried.

The size of the mass graves (50x25x10 meters) and the number (5) that are reported by Arad in his exhaustive study of the AR death camps don't provide enough space to contain the seven hundred thousand bodies that are alleged to have been in the ground at the same time. The mass graves would have actually been much larger. But even the smallest estimate of the total volume of the mass graves would require that HUGE pits be dug in the ground. Since all the mass graves were allegedly contained within the 12.3 acres of the 'Totenlager' area of Treblinka, digging them would have resulted in a massive displacement of soil in a very small area.

Never mind that there is no accounting for what happened to the soil when the pits were dug--nobody reports huge piles of dirt next to the pits and nobody reports the dirt being shipped out of the camp. But anyway, the official story is that 1) the pits were dug for the bodies, 2) the bodies were buried, 3) the bodies were dug up and incinerated, 4) the cremains of the victims and the ash from the wood that was used for cremating the bodies were dumped back into the pits that had been the mass graves 5) the mass graves were covered over thereby hiding the evidence of the crime.

The problem is that you can't perform a procedure as invasive as that without leaving a trace. The difference in the density of the soil where the mass graves had been compared to the undisturbed ground surrounding them would create visual anomalies that would be visible to the naked eye. If these anomalies couldn't be seen from the ground, they certainly would be visible from the air.

Any explanation of how the Germans would have been able to cover up the mass graves has been vague and incomplete. A "forensic" examination by the Poles in 1945 didn't find any mass graves. The Poles reported that the site of the camp had been dug up by locals looking for gold and other valuables that were no doubt buried in an attempt to explain the lack of evidence. They didn't properly document their findings and nothing in their report supports the existence of the massive pits.

Since the existence of massive disruptions of soil consistent with gigantic pits in the ground cannot be detected and no explanation has been provided to tell us why they cannot be detected, we must rely on the testimony of survivors and perpetrators for our knowledge of mass graves at Treblinka. The lack of physical evidence where there would necessarily be physical evidence trumps eyewitness testimony here.

The only conclusion given the state of knowledge is that there were never any massive pits in the ground for Treblinka sized mass graves at Treblinka. One way to conclusively prove that these pits exist is through core samples. Using a probe, geologists take samples of the soil as deep as is necessary. Analyzing the soil removed from vartious depths and different locations around the camp could pick up the difference between the undisturbed soil surrounding the pits and the soil/ash/cremains mixed within the pits.

This has always been resisted because of the potential for disturbing the remains buried there. Fortunately, ground penetrating radar would be able to perform the same function as core sample tests. GPR would be easily able to detect the difference between disturbed and undisturbed soil and it can do so without any digging in the ground.

Conducting a GPR survey would give us the evidence needed to prove the existence of the fantastical Treblinka sized mass graves at Treblinka. If GPR cannot pick up evidence of these mass graves today, it will be able to do so in future. The technology keeps getting better and cheaper.

The only GPR survey that has allegedly been conducted is the one you mentioned by Krege. He didn't find anything supporting the story. His results are meaningless though because they've never been published and there's about as much evidence that Richard Krege was even at Treblinka as there is that Rachel Auerbach was there. Not finding evidence of the mass graves doesn't prove they're not there. Dismissing the Krege study as a joke and poking holes in his veracity, methodology, and skills doesn't prove that they are. The way to prove they are there is conducting GPR survey and finding evidence of them.

Why won't anybody look? Don't Guta and Abus deserve an explanation?
 
Boycotting, In General...

Why, lookit there: a boycott, just as I stated.

And against whom was this campaign to be held?
[QUOTE/]

Do NOT sell to Mr. Smith, but DO sell to Mr. Jones... and then Mr. Smith will buy it from Mr. Jones.

Seriously... from someone who was there at the time:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQapkVCx1HI

http://www.iamthewitness.com/audio/Benjamin.H.Freedman/1974.Washington.D.C.speech.html

(FYI, I don't endorse all of the contents of any website... I'm only posting these two links.)
 
Yes. Right.

Yea,right. Do you have anything serious to say?

Believe whatever you want to believe, but I have the right to stop you from telling lies about me.

FYI, any time you say "all" it's a sure bet that you're lying about something.
 
Any explanation of how the Germans would have been able to cover up the mass graves has been vague and incomplete.

The explanations are not vague and incomplete, they are absurd for five different reasons. My favorite reason is #3 - the 'confessions' of Paul Blobel. He confessed to eveything, but it too vague. So, they had him confess again, this time confessing that he personally watched the burning of the bodies. How did they do it? They just uncovered them, doused them with petrol while still in the grave, and burned them there. For crying out loud, this itself is absurd for at least 3 reasons. Reason #2 is also good - the testimony of the eyewitnesses like Yankel Wiernik is obvious pure phantasmagoria for 28 different reasons. Blobel's 'confession', a classic, can be seen here ...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/blobel1.html

The reason the people who control the camp the camp do not look for evidence of mass graves is because they know they won't find any.
 
The reason the people who control the camp the camp do not look for evidence of mass graves is because they know they won't find any.

Snipped.

On the contrary the simple and boring reason "why" is that there is absolutely no need whatsoever to hop to skip and to jump through hoops to satisfy the weird whims and elastic and obsessive demands of Jew haters and "Revisionists."
 
The reason the people who control the camp the camp do not look for evidence of mass graves is because they know they won't find any.

Do you remember the last time we went through this, Saggy? Do you remember all the mass graves we showed you in that thread? Do you remember how you brought this up earlier here and was remembered of that time where you brought it up first and that I corrected you?

Why do you keep lying?

Oh, and catscratch, Judahites means "inabitants of ancient Judea". If you mean Jews, say Jews. You're already an antisemite so it can't get any worse if you use the correct terminology. It seems as your resentment of Jews is primarily religious in nature. Do you hate Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims with the same passion that you hate Jews?
 
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And To Think, We're Both Speaking English...

Ehrenburg is saying that German soldiers will rape Russian women if you don't kill them.

Solzhenitsyn is talking about the Soviet policy of raping German women, but he doesn't mention Ehrenburg. He mentions Ehrenburg elsewhere, but not here.

Here's my point: Ehrenburg generated bloodlust. He planted even that ONE image of rape and murder in their minds, along with the word "Kill", ad nauseum. Human nature took it from there. In effect, he loaded their guns and took aim for them. All they had to do was pull the trigger.


No, they haven't "gone missing" at all. Here's on, e.g.:

http://vivovoco.rsl.ru/VV/PAPERS/HISTORY/ERENBURG/EREN.GIF

I said MOST have gone missing... are you saying that they're ALL there? Every propaganda leaflet? How cool is that? Research! :cool:


I'm not seeing your point here. I told you that it's a foregone conclusion that the Soviet soldiers committed vast rapes. I merely said that Ehrenburg disapproved. And you're spinning out of control here because you can't find a single thing he said that disproves that.

Oh, dear. Are you laboring under the misconception that the vast majority of Red Army troops committing rape weren't Christians?

Are you daft?

This is you, saying that "the vast majority of Red Army troops committing rape" were Christians, right? My point here is that they weren't Christians, in fact, they were the VOKhR and similar monsters.


Thanks for proving my point. By the way, I like how you jump back 250 pages to tack on the rest of that. Classy. Why do you people find it necessary to consistently quote out of context, and provably so?

How can it be labeled as quoting out of context, when the context is the Christian character and what happened to them. One pearl here and another pearl there, still add up to two pearls. Solzhenitsyn doesn't write chronologically, but he scatters his pearls throughout his books and pages, leaving his readers to do the much of the math for themselves.


I don't think that Solzhenitsyn was correct on that point, and there's plenty of scholarship out there to suggest he wasn't.

No doubt. Many scholars still revere the Monster Stalin. Scholarship isn't necessarily nice... or honest, sadly.


Remember that Solzhenitsyn wasn't an insider. His ability to know things that went on in government would have been very limited.

***He talked to everybody he met in GULag--he says so in great detail, in Volume 1 of Gulag Archipelago--many of whom used to be on the inside... and subsequently had reason to be bitter... and extremely forthcoming. When you're IN government, such is not the case... if you want to keep your job... or your freedom.


From my post:
"Do you think that only Solzhenitsyn's sons know English and Russian? Since the book IS available in Russian, the English WILL learn it. The demand is there... despite the nay-saying of the press and its satellite drones."

I don't know what other languages they know: I've only ever spoken to them in English, but they all translate for their father. I don't know what about what I wrote would have you thinking that I ruled out their speaking other languages. I said no such thing.

So then, what you meant was that I have no AUTHORIZED version of 200 Years Together. And To Think, We're Both Speaking English... ;)
 
Prophecy 101...

Which assumes that the rest of the 15 million or so Jews worldwide will be dead.

According to Prophecy, only 144,000 of will be the virgins. The rest of the Hebrews, who are not evil, will be carried home as sons and daughters after the war... not the whole world will die at Armageddon, sir.
 
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According to Prophecy, only 144,000 of will be the virgins. The rest of the Hebrews, who are not evil, will be carried home as sons and daughters after the war... not the whole world will die at Armageddon, sir.

What are you talking about? Magic skydaddies has nothing to do with the Holocaust.
 
The explanations are not vague and incomplete, they are absurd for five different reasons. My favorite reason is #3 - the 'confessions' of Paul Blobel. He confessed to eveything, but it too vague. So, they had him confess again, this time confessing that he personally watched the burning of the bodies. How did they do it? They just uncovered them, doused them with petrol while still in the grave, and burned them there. For crying out loud, this itself is absurd for at least 3 reasons. Reason #2 is also good - the testimony of the eyewitnesses like Yankel Wiernik is obvious pure phantasmagoria for 28 different reasons. Blobel's 'confession', a classic, can be seen here ...

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/blobel1.html

The reason the people who control the camp the camp do not look for evidence of mass graves is because they know they won't find any.

One common theme that the Holocaust spotlights is that there are no bad Jews. Whenever it's obvious that a Jew(s) has done something BAD a swarm of good Jews will step up and defend him, point out that others have done much worse, it wasn't against the law, it's capitalism, accuse his accuser of hating all Jews and possibly that the accuser deserves a thrashing or worse.

Begging the question, why do the good Jewish people defend and protect the bad Jewish people so vociferously?
 
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One common theme that the Holocaust spotlights is that there are no bad Jews. Whenever it obvious that a Jew(s) has done something BAD a swarm of good Jews will step and defend him, point out that others have done much worse, it wasn't against the law, it's capitalism, accuse his accuser of hating all Jews and possibly that the accuser deserves a thrashing or worse.

Begging the question, why do the good Jewish people defend and protect the bad Jewish people so vociferously?

[/lurk]

maybe because a thousand years of being hassled by everyone in Europe kinda sensitized them to outside criticism?

[lurk]
 
The Anti Labels, Everywhere

Oh, and catscratch, Judahites means "inabitants of ancient Judea". If you mean Jews, say Jews. You're already an antisemite so it can't get any worse if you use the correct terminology. It seems as your resentment of Jews is primarily religious in nature. Do you hate Buddhists, Hindus and Muslims with the same passion that you hate Jews?

Someone who is antiMuslim would also be antisemitic... so much for the whole war on terror scenario, huh?

And how about Keturah's children?... hating them is antisemitic as well. Do you care about THESE Semites, uke?

Or do you have a more narrow view in mind? Do you think Orthodox Judahites who are antiZionist are antisemitic?

Or are you just an antiChristian?
 
Your experience needs broadening. Let me help you with that.

Help with your narrow view? I think not
What you see as hatred of Jews is actually hatred of Pharisees/Zionists... in at least this one instance.

YAY make up crap, why not?

I love the Judahites who have not fallen in love with the wrong shepherd.
Who made you the arbiter of sheperds?

I pray for their eyes to be opened... to be given oil for ashes. To mourn for Jesus as the firstborn Son, of the God they love and will serve forever in the Kingdom, when Kingdom comes. Those 144,000 are my dearly beloved companions-to-be.

Your pink unicorn in the sky does not exist.
 
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