Continuation Part 3 - Discussion of the Amanda Knox case

[bucketoftea]

Hi BoT,
Forgive me for buttin' in, but when Amanda and Raffaele were already arrested and in prison, and while Rudy Guede was on the run, didn't he tell his pal Giacomo Beneditti, in a taped, 3 hour long Skype call, that Amanda was not there during Meredith's brutal murder. What about Raffale Sollecito, wasn't he not even mentioned?

Now why would Rudy do that?

Surely he would have known that Amanda would spill the beans on his involvement to help save her own skin, I would think. So why didn't Rudy mention that Amanda was there that night? Wasn't it only until many months had passed that Rudy changed his tune, so to say,and said Amanda was involved?

Naming him would not have saved her own skin.

 

[komponisto]

Oh and by the way, Rolf's example of female heights is baloney and irrelevant. The reason why there are unusually high numbers of extreme outliers in height statistics (for both males and females, incidentally) is because of genetic abnormalities or diseases/illnesses. These are the factors that cause people to grow to huge heights or remain stunted.

That's why, when I was making reference to height at one point as an analogy in the T(lag) argument, I specifically excluded people whose height was abnormally affected by extrinsic factors. Robert Ludlow was 8ft11 by the time of his death, but his huge height was not caused by normal growth: he had hypertrophy of his pituitary gland, resulting in an abnormally high level of human growth hormone flowing round his body. And we can exclude pretty much anyone over around 7ft6 (the practical upper limit for adult males with no genetic or health abnormalities), plus anyone suffering from low-height factors such as genetic or medical dwarfism.

The bell curve for T(lag) in healthy adults follows a lovely smooth bell curve, with a high peak and a classical tail-off to zero. As does adult height for both males and females, where genetic/medical anomalies are excluded. You may tell Rolf from me that he's made an elementary-school mistake

In fairness to Rolf, he was just using it as an example of how a deviation from normality could hypothetically work against Raffaele. I don't think he meant to claim that exceptional heights are themselves evidence of a similarly exceptional T_lag in Meredith's case. (It was a very slight bit of evidence for me in that direction only because I hadn't been fully aware of the extent of height variation; however it is more or less canceled out by the observation that the extreme heights in question are due to specific abnormalities.)

 

[komponisto]

I've not formed my view on anything other than their conduct since November, 2007.

You might want to consider factoring other evidence into your calculation.

 

[Draca]

She films herself and brags about her work.
DSM describes many such personality disorders. But that she thinks she's going to get away with it! Wow!Perhaps she could have gotten away with one more of her crimes if all the involved had been Italians as they would all be in jail now. Or if the Americans she attacked had been cowards.

Remember the book "Profiles in Courage"? You will never find Steff there.

Piero Angeloni --

‘My department adheres to all the recognised international protocols and carries out more than 25,000 crime-scene investigations every year. Never has anyone questioned our methods before in such a way. ‘All my staff are highly professional and are taught by experts over a four-month course, and they have a yearly audit. We use state-of-the-art equipment and techniques. The staff are all highly qualified, with degrees. This is a very competent organisation.’

Stefanoni no doubt HAS gotten away with it many times before.

I don't know why Piero Angeloni thinks his letter will be meaningful to Hellmann when he can see with his own eyes that it's not true in the evidence collection video.

 

[Chris_Halkides]

good advice

I've not formed my view on anything other than their conduct since November, 2007.

Bucketoftea,

I believe you, and that is one of the biggest problems in this case. There is more to this case than their conduct, such as one mendacity after another courtesy of ILE. And the unprofessional forensics, etc.

Here is the bugged conversation that you were unwilling to produce. E is Edda Mellas, and C is Curt Knox.
“E: That's what they're doing now. They are simply lying.

C: It's all a fabrication...

E: Yes, to make someone break down.

A: It’s stupid. I can’t say anything but the truth, because I know I was there. I mean, I can’t lie on this, there is no reason to do it.

C: Yeah, yeah, so what you have to do is not to talk about anything with anyone. Don’t write anything. You may receive letters. Have you received letters or anything else?”

So your interpretation of Amanda’s words (that she was about to tell what really happened) is just one more variation on the “I was there” fallacy. “There” is ambiguous; it could refer either to her flat or to Sollecito’s flat. However, the ambiguity is relieved by the following statement that there is no reason to lie. There is indeed no reason to lie about being at Sollecito’s flat, but there would be a reason to lie if she were really at her flat.

Her parents gave her good advice in this conversation, as evinced by the fact that it was bugged, as well as on general principles. MOO.

 

[Diocletus]

Of course no one would accept this authorless statement.

Hmmm. Are you aware of any reports that Comodi in fact referred to Meredith's DNA on the knife or Raffaele's DNA on the clasp? I'm not.

This is most interesting. Hellmann strikes me a very careful Judge. The hook has been set and he's letting the fish run with the line until he tires. Then, he'll get reeled in and gaffed. This is what careful judges do. Oh, I can't wait for Stef to get crossed.

 

[Kaosium]

So Amanda lied when she admitted her presence in the house and that she covered her ears so she could not hear Meredith screaming while bleeding to death.

Have you read the statements and the note?

What gives you the definite impression that Amanda was there? On the basis of those two statements, and nothing else what would you think of a police force that arrested all three of them, then paraded through town with lights flashing and sirens blaring and announcing 'case closed' and that she'd 'buckled and given an account that they knew correct?'

Then two days later--with no forensic evidence of any sort--appearing before a judge and claiming she'd held down Meredith whilst Patrick and Raffaele raped and murdered her?

Just because the DNA evidence on the bra clip and knife has been said to be not reliable, does that mean all other evidence is suspect?

No it does not, however I can tell you from personal experience after wading through a dozen or two links on the properties of luminol you can feel damn silly when you're done for not noticing the pattern sooner. It's all either irrelevant, disingenuous, or downright suspicious.

What physical evidence you find a compelling indication of Amanda and Raffaele being involved in the murder?

I was brought up by parents who made me understand the consequences of my actions. Whenever I have done something wrong, the easiest way out mentally, was to tell the truth.

Nothing is easier.

Ironically Amanda just said something similar in court, do you think it is possible she might agree with you?

 

[Diocletus]

Piero Angeloni --

‘My department adheres to all the recognised international protocols and carries out more than 25,000 crime-scene investigations every year. Never has anyone questioned our methods before in such a way. ‘All my staff are highly professional and are taught by experts over a four-month course, and they have a yearly audit. We use state-of-the-art equipment and techniques. The staff are all highly qualified, with degrees. This is a very competent organisation.’

Stefanoni no doubt HAS gotten away with it many times before.

I don't know why Piero Angeloni thinks his letter will be meaningful to Hellmann when he can see with his own eyes that it's not true in the evidence collection video.

This letter is nothing but a desparate, self-serving cry for mercy. Boo hoo, judge, please don't say what you think about the video or else 25,000 people might go free. Hellmann's eyes probably just about popped out of his head when he received this letter after having seen the forensics clown act in action. The more desperate stunts like this, the faster the defendants get out of jail.

Do we think Angeloni copied defense counsel on this letter? Doubt it. It was probably supposed to be his "little secret" with Hellmann. But, Hellmann saw right through the cheap ploy and called it out in court. It must have been a surreal juxtaposition of this letter against the laughing from the prior court session. That's the last we'll hear from Angeloni or any of his ilk. He's a fool, his department sucks, and whoever advised him to write this secret little letter is a weasel and now everyone knows it.

 

[bucketoftea]

You might want to consider factoring other evidence into your calculation.

I think you have perhaps missed the first part of that exchange. I meant only my view as to which kind of parents Amanda has has been formed by their own conduct since Nov. 2007. That's all.

 

[komponisto]

Reading comprehension issues

Naming him would not have saved her own skin.

Unless you think Rudy is a female and Amanda a male, you didn't answer the question you were asked.

(And that's a pretty bad answer to the question you thought you were asked, too, since they didn't bother to clean up Rudy's traces while supposedly cleaning up their own.)

 

[Diocletus]

I meant only my view as to which kind of parents Amanda has has been formed by their own conduct since Nov. 2007. That's all.

What? The kind of parents that support their daughter in every way they can in the face of lies, deceit and travesty? If ever faced with such a situation, hope I would do the same.

 

[davefoc]

Hi Davefoc

He did not claim they killed her other than they were there, so that is who HE thinks killed her. He never said he witnessed it.

OK, thanks.

I remain a bit confused I am afraid. How did Guede identify Knox and Sollecito? As individuals that he didn't know that were in the apartment at the time of the crime or as people he knew by name?

Doesn't the prosecution's theory of the crime involve all three individuals working together? Does the prosecution's theory require that they had known each other at least long enough to have agreed to act together?

I am trying to understand how Guede's testimony and the prosecution's theory of the case relate to each other and how it is that Guede could construct a credible claim that Knox and Sollecito were in the apartment at the time of the crime if they weren't there.

 

[Kaosium]

Don't you find it odd that Amanda lived in that house, and yet they found very little evidence of her DNA?

You only find DNA in places you test for it, the only way anyone finds out is if it is reported publicly. The Polizia Scientifica did the majority of their testing in the murder room, they found absolutely nothing of Amanda yet numerous traces of Rudy Guede including on Meredith's clothes and inside her.

Finding Amanda's DNA in the rest of the house would hardly be suspicious, nor would it even be all that suspicious to find Rudy Guede's outside the murder room being as it is indeed possible he might have visited, thus would 'prove' nothing. Thus why would anyone spend all that much time looking for it?

 

[Diocletus]

Don't you find it odd that Amanda lived in that house, and yet they found very little evidence of her DNA?

No. Because aside from Rudy's palm print, shoe print and DNA on purse and in vagina, those numbnuts didn't find anything else that was the slightest bit useful. And now that DNA evidence is even questionable. So there you have it. Huge, messy murder scene and these idiots come up with . . . a palm print and a shoe print, both of which probably match 25% of the male population in Perugia. Why would we even begin to suspect that they would have the competency to find evidence of Amanda in her own house?

 

[Kaosium]

Actually, I was thinking of the jailhouse conversation where she seems to want to tell the truth and her parents shut her up, but now you mention it, she should have retracted the accusation. She didn't. It looks for all the world she would be hoping that he would go down for it. Amanda Marie Knox is solely responsible for Lumumba's arrest

Is this (second from bottom) what you're referring to?

Amanda: Yes, there is a doctor. I took a medicine for a headache this morning, and now I feel better, but the reason I was crying yesterday is because there was this pressure on my head that wouldn’t go away because I felt horrible, this person looked at me as if I was a horrible person and I collapsed.

Edda: Like I said, the lawyers believe that they are doing it on purpose, because they sure have nothing, so they are trying to put pressure on like when they interrogated you to see if you would say something more and so you have to keep calm and do not say anything to anyone.

Amanda: Yeah, when I was in the room with him I said what? ... (Laughs) and then when I returned to my bedroom I was crying. I’m very, very worried for this thing about the knife... because there is a knife from Raffaele ...

Curt: Well, here, here, here are the facts… we talked yesterday with the lawyer and asked him about the knife. Every time that they have to review an item we have an expert there that will review it with them. This is an example of... this knife of which they are talking about, they have never notified anything about the knife.

E: So, it’s BS!

A: Is it BS?

E: It’s BS.

C: It’s complete BS. It’s a total fabrication.

E: That's what they're doing now. They are simply lying.

C: It's all a fabrication...

E: Yes, to make someone break down.

A: It’s stupid. I can’t say anything but the truth, because I know I was there. I mean, I can’t lie on this, there is no reason to do it.

C: Yeah, yeah, so what you have to do is not to talk about anything with anyone. Don’t write anything. You may receive letters. Have you received letters or anything else?

A: I'm getting loads of letters from admirers.

E: Well, people in Seattle, even your friends will start to write. They been asking me for some time, they want to send you things... probably many things can’t get through, e… but...

Amanda says she's talking about Raffaele's, I find that quite plausible being as it would seem to me pretty much obvious she'd have a reason to lie were she actually at the cottage. I think the context of the conversation suggests Curt Knox is telling her not to speak to people lest the police try to use it against her, as they are using psychological ploys to get her to make a real confession.

I also think the police are responsible for evaluating the results of their interrogations and are the ones who have the authority to make arrests, and to release suspects. I find it extraordinarily curious that the police would even consider releasing a suspect solely on the basis of the word of the girl they arrested who was not confessing to the crime. Do you suppose they would have released Raffaele too if she said he wasn't there? How come they didn't release them all when she quite clearly indicated she wasn't sure of her 'memories' and couldn't be used as 'testimone' against Patrick?

 

[Bruce Fischer]

~~

 

[Bruce Fischer]

~~

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Is this (second from bottom) what you're referring to?




Amanda says she's talking about Raffaele's, I find that quite plausible being as it would seem to me pretty much obvious she'd have a reason to lie were she actually at the cottage. I think the context of the conversation suggests Curt Knox is telling her not to speak to people lest the police try to use it against her, as they are using psychological ploys to get her to make a real confession.

I also think the police are responsible for evaluating the results of their interrogations and are the ones who have the authority to make arrests, and release suspects. I find it extraordinarily curious that the police would even consider releasing a suspect solely on the basis of the word of the girl they arrested who was not confessing to the crime. Do you suppose they would have released Raffaele too if she said he wasn't there? How come they didn't release them all when she quite clearly indicated she wasn't sure of her 'memories' and couldn't be used as 'testimone' against Patrick?

I believe that Bucket is referring to Amanda being questioned my Mignini. Bucket's group has long pushed the lie that Amanda almost confessed to Mignini. This accusation is completely false.

 

[Bruce Fischer]

Thank you, Bruce.

I've not formed my view on anything other than their conduct since November, 2007.

You have formed your opinion by reading the opinion of your group regarding the conduct of Amanda's parents. The opinion of your group is based on reporting from yellow journalists Vogt and Nadeau. You don't know Amanda's parents. You have no idea what they are going through. I would suggest staying away from topics that you know absolutely nothing about.

 

[Kaosium]

I believe that Bucket is referring to Amanda being questioned my Mignini. Bucket's group has long pushed the lie that Amanda almost confessed to Mignini. This accusation is completely false.

Oh I think I recall this! I've not heard it in a while. Is this the one where the lawyer cut it off because Mignini got bellicose and Amanda said something about feeling like she was at the interrogation and no one was listening?